17 replies to this topic

[Eglar]

I've read many people complaining about the "jump-sniping" meta along with how they are not able to deal with Jump-snipers (ppc/ac5) builds. Thus I've decided to write a guide on how to brawl them.


While "Jump-Snipers" are highly perform-ant on any situation, they are not the always the best tactic. On most maps, playing a Brawler is a quiete viable, as long as you utilize cover and have some basic battlefield awareness, while on alpine for instance, bringing fielding a brawler against a long-ranged mech equals a death-sentence in most cases. If you ever watched the typical House of Lords meta-lance you'll notice that they are pretty much always within 400 meters away from you and playing very aggressively. Don't tell me that you can't match that with an equal brawler.

At this point I am explicitly saying "equal brawler", because you shouldn't be expecting to win against a 80 ton mech in your 50 ton medium. There are a few things to consider when building a brawler (especially in higher elo ranges, where Jump snipers are more frequent):

1. Firepower: Obviouslly your brawler needs to have superior firepower compared to a jump-sniper.

2. Speed: Your brawler should have at least equal speed compared to a jump-sniper which is at least 70, preferably 80.

3. JJs: Unfortunately, this is almost a must when trying to brawl with jump- snipers, for once you enter your effective brawling range, he'll excape by jumping over the next best obstacle. If you have JJs, you can keep up the chase, if you don't you'd have to walk all the way around.

4. (Optional) Ability to tank at least the equal amount of damage as a Jump-sniper.

At this point: Why is the Atlas a bad brawler against Jump-Snipers?
Because Atlai are too damn slow. Unless you can catch a jump-snipers with his back against a wall, you will never catch that elusive sniper.

So as for mediums, the 55 Ton Phoenix Mechs are all fairly decent as brawlers, for this case, I've opted for a Victor (in regard of rule #4). I've started playing the Brawler VTR-9S recently(started 2 days ago and mastered it yesterday). Or the VTR-9B.

Spoiler

That being said there are a few things to do when dropping with a Brawler:

Situation Awareness - Is required like with any other build. For brawlers especially simply because brawler pilots tend to have this "tunnel vision" once entering a brawl. Or don't know when to go in.

Have people following you - Especially in pug-play, when you commit to a brawl and unless your target is alone, make sure that there are others behind you who can use your "presence" to dish out damage. Make sure to clear their firing line.

Jump a lot. - It's more important than torso twisting, because (like on my vtr example you don't have a particular shield side) you can distribute damage onto your legs by jumping up while your weapons are on cool-down.

Don't stand still. - Face-hugging = Bad. Especially if you're doing it to an Atlas, you're probably dead. Try to get into the minimum range of weapons, but keep moving.

(Optional) drop in a 4-men brawler deck. - Brawlers take alot of fire simply because they are closer. If you opt to drop in a 4-men brawl deck you can all go in at once, making it harder for the enemy to focus-fire at a single person.

I hope this helps and see you ingame. :-)

Edited by Eglar, 05 June 2014 - 01:05 AM.

[Chagatay]

First you go to the Mechlab.
Then you equip the PPCs, your AC/5s, ammo, and a Jump jet or 2.
Equip the Airstrike/Artillery modules.
Get three of your friends to do the same thing.
Make group log into the VOIP program of choice.
Click Ready.
Profit.

-or-

1. Patiently wait for underground labyrinth cave like map where you just hit the ceiling if you hit spacebar key. You could even decapitate yourself instantly on the stalactites (Ouch).

2. Push for a social punishment feature for such behavior so that it becomes self-regulating (see Jun's post).

3. Opt for the development of a single player only queue (sure you may still run into a jumpsniper or two but he doesn't have comms to bail him out of trouble should a light decide to snack on him***).

4. Await the arrival of punitive damage on jump jet misuse (significant leg breaking fall damage) and/or collision mechanics. I have a poptart that just slammed his jumpjets a few meters in front of me let me turn my shield arm into him and battering ram his legs in midair. Betty Screams "Gyro Overload" as the pilot sees his life flash before his eyes:
A. He could do a somersault and landing on his cockpit killing him instantly (need skill to ram him at the right angle).
B. More likely he is helplessly laying in front of me. Time to blast him and his backside to the afterlife. Sorry about your luck, "mechwarrior"...etc

*** That is until the arrival of the timbertart overlords.

Edited by Chagatay, 05 June 2014 - 07:17 AM.

[John80sk]

While I've never seen Eglar in a brawler before, his advice is very solid. When he says superior firepower though, what it really means is overwhelming, such as a 60+ alpha victor.

The only real issue with brawlers in higher ELO's is if you're not dropping with a 4 man, you're likely going to have a team consisting of mostly ppc/ac builds who are not going to operate in your optimal ranges. 400m is still too far out for a brawler to "equal" a meta build. You don't really "equal" a jump sniper until you're within 270m, and are not superior until you're within 100m, where your SRM's can really start to do some work.

Good guide though, and I welcome you to the ranks of people dumb enough to play brawlers in poptart land Eglar.

[Tim East]

Chagatay, on 05 June 2014 - 01:57 AM, said:

1. Patiently wait for underground labyrinth cave like map where you just hit the ceiling if you hit spacebar key. You could even decapitate yourself instantly on the stalagmites (Ouch).

You mean stalactites. Stalagmites are the ones that attack the crotch of jumping mechs. Stalactites go for the head.

[Chagatay]

Probably should have just used "pointy things that kill*" as this covers everything.

*refer to old school NES games (pointy things that kill are everywhere in almost everygame!!!)

Edited by Chagatay, 05 June 2014 - 07:21 AM.

[Tim East]

The mental image of a Cataphract jumping up and landing bawls first on a rock spike reminded me of Red vs. Blue and made me chuckle slightly. Huzzah for crude humor.

[Eglar]

John80sk, on 05 June 2014 - 04:52 AM, said:

The only real issue with brawlers in higher ELO's is if you're not dropping with a 4 man, you're likely going to have a team consisting of mostly ppc/ac builds who are not going to operate in your optimal ranges. 400m is still too far out for a brawler to "equal" a meta build. You don't really "equal" a jump sniper until you're within 270m, and are not superior until you're within 100m, where your SRM's can really start to do some work.

Good guide though, and I welcome you to the ranks of people dumb enough to play brawlers in poptart land Eglar.

Yes, that's unfortunately true. While Fast Brawlers can reliably beat Jump-snipers up-close the fact that you are alone can be frustrating. However, it is the same, even when you are on a Jump-snipers against a 4 men Dragonslayer/3D combo. For that reason, I will recommend running with a group of brawlers/Jumpsnipers yourself and communicate with your pugs, so that they can make use of you being a "distraction"

Recently, I've been playing the VTR-9S build a lot recently. While it's much harder to perform as consistently as a Jump-Sniper (depending on the map) you can in most cases perform as good as a jump-sniper.

[krolmir]

I think proper aiming techniques for battling jump snipers is one important key, Lasers are great for those inexperienced with finding a good aiming point. You can get an Idea on how to calculate their rate of accent. Which is the best time to hit them, before they can fire. When you get used to this, then you can use more FLD type weapons to fight fire with fire, and expose yourself as little as possible. Last key is watch any horizon lines, while using cover yourself to shield your position. Just clear your cockpit to see with, over small terrain feature is preferable, the side is a death sentence, because you present to much target to the enemy. I also recommend having other weapons groups for your highest mounted weapons. Even if they aren't your kill mode weapons, being able to harass jump snipers enough to keep them from jumping over and over is huge. My favorite anti-jumps up mech is actually the DRG-Flame with its stupid high ballistic hard point. Mount a gauss and 4 ml for backup. It's almost impossible to hit by jump snipers, but I can comfortably stab at them over and over, than quickly relocate again behind cover. Which is the last point, being maneuverable. The slowest guy in the open is always the best target....

[Jay Z]

I agree with Eglar on all these points. I've dropped with and against him in my one VTR 9S brawler. It does indeed work, even if the enemy have a few poptarts. I was 2 manning with Gilgurth last night and had this match.

[tm10067]

So I'm smoking trial Victor not in vain, yay!

[Itsalrightwithme]

Eglar, on 05 June 2014 - 01:03 AM, said:

So as for mediums, the 55 Ton Phoenix Mechs are all fairly decent as brawlers, for this case, I've opted for a Victor (in regard of rule #4). I've started playing the Brawler VTR-9S recently(started 2 days ago and mastered it yesterday). Or the VTR-9B.

How do you set up weapon groups with the 9B, Eglar? LPuls by itself? Together with MPuls?

Good to see you with this build in game, almost had you once too except a 2xAC5 shot missed your cheery torso ;-). Grr... !

Thanks.

Edited by Itsalrightwithme, 10 June 2014 - 06:36 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Fighting jumpsniper and/or LRM boats requires that one leaves cover and goes to fight, even knowing that he'll probably take a beating and die, rather then sit behind cover and teammates. Also, it obviousely requires that your teammates support your push and go fight same moment you do. First is very rare, second is completely lacking. That is why jumpsniping is so dominant in PUGs. And only people PUGs can blame for it is themselves.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 10 June 2014 - 06:46 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

I would suggest a couple of changes. The Victors turn very slowly now. Because of this I moved to a larger 380xl, AC20, 3 SRM 4 with Artemis and 2 medium lasers and 4 jump jets. Now you are faster than the jump sniper and turn/twist faster and also have more fire power and can jump higher. If you can get close its over for them the majority of the time. On the down side it is rather hot.

Also I am not sure how well it will work after the jump jets changes next week since it already runs hots.

[Tim East]

1:Use a locust.
2:Serpentine/use cover on the way to the poptarteer.
3:Circle him at irregular intervals to prevent him from getting a clean shot.
4:Laugh as your tiny damage chews through his legs and into his ammo supply.
5:Do not attempt against multiple poptarteers simultaneously. Unless you have good reason to believe they suck at aiming. Or want to die.

Edited by Tim East, 13 June 2014 - 11:11 PM.

[cyberstrabadi]

For PUG drops its really useless to try and talk strategie.The thing that i do when i encounter poptarts is take my 4 ERLL stalker and get to a distance leaving only my head and ears uncovered.(The stalker , as long as other earshaped hand mechs , can shoot anything that they can see leaving very little of their body uncovered).I chainfire them and wait for them to jump.Chainfiring 4 ERLL gives you an endless chainfiring streak and as long as you`re an ok shot , you shot them but they cannot shoot you.The trick is that they shake too much because of your lasers and they cannot aim , while you`re leaving a very small target for them.After a while they receive damage and try to change their jumping spot.
As for 12man , where strategie is implimented, there is no better thing that coordination.As a light pilot i take my 3L and my light lance and w3ait for our missile boats to take position.Then we swarm them using UAV and narc while goin for the feet(they have all their ammo there).The missile boats do their job and as long as their lights do not come to the resque we are certain that , if we haven`t killed them all , our brawlers (that are allready moving for the site) have a hell of an easy job.The light lance (if we survive the first impact) go to harash their boats and leave the brawlers to mop the floor.

It`s not what they have , but how you change your tactics to it.

Edited by cyberstrabadi, 14 June 2014 - 12:49 AM.

[John80sk]

Eglar, on 09 June 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

Recently, I've been playing the VTR-9S build a lot recently. While it's much harder to perform as consistently as a Jump-Sniper (depending on the map) you can in most cases perform as good as a jump-sniper.

That's probably the biggest issue with brawlers at the moment, consistency. Map wise though a lot of this can be mitigated by queueing conquest. Even Alpine is fairly brawl friendly on conquest.

I run my own 9S with 3x SRM6, no Artemis. I prefer the bit of extra punch, and the synch with the AC20 cooldown. Plus I find the rearranging hardpoint bug infuriating, so I don't like mix and matching with the 9S's screwy tube counts.
VTR-9S

When pugging though I really don't like bringing brawler assaults. Brawler mediums are a lot easier to get out of the fight with when your team decides it was just kidding with that push. The Griffin and the Shadowhawk are probably my two favorites.

cyberstrabadi, on 14 June 2014 - 12:48 AM, said:

For PUG drops its really useless to try and talk strategie.The thing that i do when i encounter poptarts is take my 4 ERLL stalker and get to a distance leaving only my head and ears uncovered.(The stalker , as long as other earshaped hand mechs , can shoot anything that they can see leaving very little of their body uncovered).I chainfire them and wait for them to jump.Chainfiring 4 ERLL gives you an endless chainfiring streak and as long as you`re an ok shot , you shot them but they cannot shoot you.The trick is that they shake too much because of your lasers and they cannot aim , while you`re leaving a very small target for them.After a while they receive damage and try to change their jumping spot.

None of that made sense... not sure if trolling but...
1) Lasers don't cause cockpit shake.
2) Chainfired ERLL is doing maybe 9 damage spread across multiple components while they're drilling either you or your teammates with 30-40 points of pinpoint damage every time they jump. Not a good trade.
3) If we're talking about jumpsnipers, they jump. So if you're ridge humping, all they have to do is jump until they have enough of you visible to hit.

[cyberstrabadi]

1)Lasers do shake cockpits if you are mid-air(unless they changed something in recent patches).Not sure if they have the Improved gyros module.
2)Its not how much damage you do but making them miss.The damage you do is nothing but making them miss is nerveraking for them.
3)Jumpsnipers jump but not as much as spiders i do believe.Anyway once they are mid-air you`re hitting them and as presaid they cannot aim mostly when you`re in a distance.

I`ve tried that numerous times in the past and worked.But do not take my word for it just try it.

[YueFei]

cyberstrabadi, on 16 June 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

1)Lasers do shake cockpits if you are mid-air(unless they changed something in recent patches).Not sure if they have the Improved gyros module.
2)Its not how much damage you do but making them miss.The damage you do is nothing but making them miss is nerveraking for them.
3)Jumpsnipers jump but not as much as spiders i do believe.Anyway once they are mid-air you`re hitting them and as presaid they cannot aim mostly when you`re in a distance.

I`ve tried that numerous times in the past and worked.But do not take my word for it just try it.

Lasers don't cause shake in mid-air. I jump around in my Jenner and get hit by lasers all the time while I'm flying through the air. It doesn't cause any cockpit shake.

Besides, chain-firing your lasers makes it almost certain that you're only going to get maybe 2 of your lasers firing before he drops back into cover.

It's rare for a poptart to be exposed for longer than 1 second. You'll get 1 full laser burn and half of another laser's burn, or about 13 to 14 damage. And that's potentially spread damage, because as soon as the poptart shoots he'll turn+twist.

You can fire them 2+2, but that's probably still an inferior damage trade. ~27 spread damage vs 30 focused damage. Or clobber yourself with Ghost Heat and fire all 4 ERLL at the same time, but good jump snipers are known to play aggressively, he'll push onto you while you're redlining on heat. He can continue firing his AC5's all day long.

If you can ERLL him from 700+ meters and keep him there, you're out-trading him, but if he just hops up and down at 700 meters over and over and over again trading with you until he's dead, that doesn't really mean you're good, it just means he's bad.