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Learn To Play N00Bs


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#1 qki

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:16 AM

Made you look, didn't I? A little something to occupy my time (it's PDT -9 here) while waiting for the second trial to come online, and maybe occupy a bit of your time as well (caution, long rant incoming).



David Dunning is a professor of psychology at the university of Cornell. According to his research, in order to know how good you are at something, you must have exactly the same skills as it takes to be good at that thing in the first place. The resulting paradox is that if you are absolutely no good at something at all, then you lack exactly the skills that you'd need to realise that you are no good at it. Just listen to this guy:
https://www.youtube....Afv3U_ysc#t=213

A consequence of this, is that countless people THINK they are good at something, precisely because they are not.

Now, normally, when you are confronted with superior tactics (and subsequently lose to them) in a game, you have two options. One, is to learn that tactic, and just try to be better at it than other players, and the other is to try to counter said tactic (perhaps even exploit the fact, that people using it are going to behave in a certain way).

Trouble is - some people refuse to learn. Not that they cannot learn, but they refuse to do so. Because in their own mind, their tactic is correct (remember the opening paragraph?). So they insist on using it, and then wonder why they keep getting blown up. This is the literal definition of insanity - repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome.

And every time we point out, that maybe their skills just weren't up to par, we are met with hostility:
"no, damn it! I know how to play this game, I'm not wrong, the game is wrong! And You are wrong! Everyone is wrong except ME!" (sounds familiar?). This is partially the fault of the current education system in many countries - instead of improving their skills to pass a test, people want to lower the requirements. And they have come to expect it too, because the super-PC (politically correct) culture of the modern world seems mortally afraid to offend anyone with suggestions that they, quite frankly, suck.
The end result is that people refuse to make an effort to improve in any way, and ALSO refuse to acept responsibility for their defeats. And while it is tempting to focus your blame on incompetent teammates (and i've given in to this temptation many times), some people take it further.

When I talked about two options before, these people choose a third one - go on the forums and cry about it, until it gets nerfed. Rather than trying to overcome the obstacles, they want the easy way out, and ask for the obstacles to be arbitrarily removed from their way. And it bothers me, because it impacts the game in a strictly negative way.

You see - people seldom complain about winning. Most of the time, when you hear someone complain about "balance", they do it from the position of the victim. And amidst accusations of "overpowered weapons that allowed an inferior player to get an undeserved victory", and "underpowered weapons that should have given them a victory they so rightly deserve", these people are not really looking for balance. They are looking for vengeance. Even if only subconciously, their "suggestions" are meant to prevent people from defeating them using a certain tactic that they cannot be bothered to learn how to counter, and sometimes outright punish people for trying. That's how we got asault mode base turrets, which i dislike with all my being (at least in their current form), but have (learned) to deal with.



And now that the second round of testing the clan mechs and equipment is upon us, people will invariably offer their "valuable input" on matters they do not fully understand.
Personally, I have to say that I like how the clans are being treated in this game so far, even though i was cautious at first, when it was announced, that clan weapons will be tweaked to not be clearly and strictly 200% superior to the inner sphere ones. My initial reaction was along the lines of "what heresy is this?!", since clan tech in battletech lore is strictly superior, to Inner Sphere's - more powerful, lighter and with more range. That being said - while the numbers in the board game manual are clear, there has never been any official statement (that I am aware of, feel free to correct me) as to what exactly MAKES them better.

I must admit I really like PGI's (liberal) interpretation, that clan weapons have higher damage potential, than IS weapons, as long as you put in the extra effort required (Obviously, the UAC20 can shred a lot more armour, than the IS AC20, and the lasers do more damage, as long as you stay on target). And I am quite puzzled to see, that some people discount them entirely as impossible to use effectively (aka: it doesn't matter if the CERLL does more damage, since the burn time is 50% longer and you will waste all of it hitting something else).

Very much like the change to Gauss Rifle mechanic. A lot of people, who relied on the simple "point and click" nature of it, cried out that the GR is unusable now (nevermind the bit of effort and practice to go from aim-click, to click/aim-release). While I argued, that the GR has been made more powerful, since once you learn to handle the charge mechanic, you are given a very powerful option to cancel your shots, and refire quicker than after a missed one (not to mention saving ammo).


So, kindly, think before you type. And when it comes to posting "balance suggestions" think extra hard.

Edited by qki, 15 June 2014 - 06:22 AM.


#2 Shae Starfyre

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:28 AM

View Postqki, on 15 June 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

...that the GR has been made more powerful, since once you learn to handle the charge mechanic, you are given a very powerful option to cancel your shots, and refire quicker than after a missed one (not to mention saving ammo)...


This was the most interesting part I got from this post...

Your saying that if I charge, and the green goes down, that I can recharge and release faster than normal?

#3 qki

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:33 AM

View PostAphoticus, on 15 June 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:


This was the most interesting part I got from this post...

Your saying that if I charge, and the green goes down, that I can recharge and release faster than normal?



I'm saying, that you can decide to cancel the shot before it goes green, and the subsequent recharge will be faster than the old cooldown. Also, once you have the charge, witholding the shot (to lose the charge) and recharging is still faster than letting loose, missing, and having to wait for cooldown AND charge. And it comes at the price of having to incorporate the charging part into your aiming routine, and to be (relatively) quick about acquiring targets to not lose the charge for holding too long. That, and having a good judgment of whether your shot will be a hit or a miss.

Edited by qki, 15 June 2014 - 06:34 AM.


#4 Shae Starfyre

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:35 AM

I misunderstood' I thought there was a little loop hole there that allow you to nearly hip shoot after a failed to release charge up; carry on.

#5 Impyrium

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:35 AM

View PostAphoticus, on 15 June 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:


This was the most interesting part I got from this post...

Your saying that if I charge, and the green goes down, that I can recharge and release faster than normal?


I think he means if you decide to not fire, you can fire again... sort of straight away, rather than waiting for the reload timer.

EDIT: Ninja'd. D:

Edited by AUSwarrior24, 15 June 2014 - 06:36 AM.


#6 xMintaka

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:36 AM

Wait, what?

A sensible post? On these forums?

#7 Sennin

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:42 AM

View Postqki, on 15 June 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

When I talked about two options before, these people choose a third one - go on the forums and cry about it, until it gets nerfed. Rather than trying to overcome the obstacles, they want the easy way out, and ask for the obstacles to be arbitrarily removed from their way. And it bothers me, because it impacts the game in a strictly negative way.


Couldn't have said it better. Saw a few people (who I will not name) go on the last public test forum and copy/paste their opinion of what is OP and needs to be nerfed in each thread.

#8 cSand

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:57 AM

Great post, +10

#9 Targetloc

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:11 AM

Dunning-Kruger is definitely the biggest issue I find with complaints about how Elo works.

Just keep in mind that some calls for nerfs are valid. I've seen posters take extremes in the other direction and claim that any balance complaints whatsoever are invalid because if there's a tactic or build better than all others you aren't allowed to complain because you should learn to use it yourself.

The hardest part about taking feedback is filtering out the insightful stuff from the 'education issues'.

#10 Abisha

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:21 AM

Yo mister perfect, show us your KDR and win/loss rate before pointing fingers.

#11 Zerberus

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:27 AM

I have nothing to add to the op, excellent post, should be required reading for any online gamer, especially those starting a new game. :)

#12 DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:27 AM

Didn't you (or someone else) post the first part of this a long time ago?

It was a good read then. Interesting update.

Edited by Daisu Saikoro, 15 June 2014 - 07:34 AM.


#13 Silentium

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:30 AM

and here I was going to post something like "IB4L" when I read the title :)

#14 qki

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:30 AM

Sure - as with the base turrets question - some people had legitimate concerns, that on large maps (Alpine in particular), even with turrets it can be outright impossible to respond to a base cap.

And developers do silly things sometimes (CT-seeking streaks during the closed beta for example), but there is a profound difference between saying that pulse lasers need shorter burn times (in general), bacause I feel that the "+2 modifier" is not represented adequately, and as a result, the added weight and reduced range seldom makes pulse lasers a good choice over regular ones, and just up and declaring that "so and so needs to change, because the game is unplayable otherwise, devs are stupid, kkthxbai".


Edit: Yes - I did post an anti-rant rant a good while back, when the level of whine boiled over (or at least boiled me over).

And I never claim to be mr. perfect - my W/L hovers around 1-1, and my kdr is 1.34 at the moment (overall, 1.56 with my YLW, 2.46 with my FOTM LRMPult) - certainly nowhere near 4+, and for the very limited number of games that I get to play now and then.

Edited by qki, 15 June 2014 - 07:35 AM.


#15 Marmon Rzohr

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:33 AM

View Postqki, on 15 June 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:



I'm saying, that you can decide to cancel the shot before it goes green, and the subsequent recharge will be faster than the old cooldown. Also, once you have the charge, witholding the shot (to lose the charge) and recharging is still faster than letting loose, missing, and having to wait for cooldown AND charge. And it comes at the price of having to incorporate the charging part into your aiming routine, and to be (relatively) quick about acquiring targets to not lose the charge for holding too long. That, and having a good judgment of whether your shot will be a hit or a miss.


IMHO, your thread is very interesting and something that really should exist on these forums. :)
Most of the balance suggestions one can find on the forums are quite impulsive.


However, the things that made the Gauss become nerfed rather than just changed or more potent have nothing to do with player skill:
1) The DPS was lowered quite a bit by adding 0.75 seconds to the cooldown even if you assume perfect reactions and no time wasted before noticing the charge is full and releasing
2) The charge mechanic made it impossible to hit shots you could without the charge up. Like a split second snap shot. For most situations this doesn't make a huge difference as you can often expect when you'll encounter a target, but it is a nerf.

I'd finally like to add that I don't think the Gauss was overnerfed. I think it's a good weapon in a good spot and the balance changes were ok.

#16 qki

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:44 AM

That, and the need to de-sync it with PPC, to break up the 2PPCGauss builds that were running rampant (now replaced by PPC/AC5 builds for the most part).

But i generally think that the nerf to gauss coincided with a buff of sorts (even if many people didn't acknowledge it as such), and never complained about that.

And with the second trial, what, 3 hours from now, we get one more chance for last-minute suggestions, so better make it count, and try to filter out some of the bias before we post it, quiaff?

#17 Abisha

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:45 AM

Gauss without a charge mechanic is just stupid.
it don't request a lot of brains to work that out the why.

I think the weapons are great balanced overall.
only the flamer can use some love, but then again you get stun locks if they get to much love.
See their how freaking hard it is to just modified even a single weapon?

#18 Zepster

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:46 AM

SOOO many people need to read this and take it to heart. Sadly most of them won't they'll just keep whining for nerfs as they repeatedly get their butts handed to them.....

#19 Abisha

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:48 AM

View PostZepster, on 15 June 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

SOOO many people need to read this and take it to heart. Sadly most of them won't they'll just keep whining for nerfs as they repeatedly get their butts handed to them.....


Nerfing is more efficient then buffing.
what the hell do you think happens if they start buffing weapon?, you get single shot mechs back ingame you want that?.

#20 cSand

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:51 AM

View PostAbisha, on 15 June 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:


Nerfing is more efficient then buffing.
what the hell do you think happens if they start buffing weapon?, you get single shot mechs back ingame you want that?.


I'm guessing from your posts lately that either English isn't your first language or you need to work on reading comprehension..





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