95 replies to this topic

[Atheus]

Aresye, on 21 June 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

Speed Tweak and Module Slot are really the only mech skills that are important to unlock. All the other ones have an impact, although not necessarily a very big one.

Mm... so...
+15% heat dissipation
+20% heat threshold
+20% torso twist range
+40% torso twist speed
+30% arm speed
+20% turning speed
+50% deceleration
+45% acceleration

...not a very big impact?

I have no idea how you could be a founder and say something like this. There is a colossal difference between a mastered mech and a mech with 0 efficiencies. There's a very noticeable difference between a mech with only basics filled out and a mech with elites filled out, and it has little to do with speed tweak.

[Bigg Robb]

Well, played some more over the last few days, and with few exceptions I'm seeing the same results.

Across the board my KDR is dropping. I know that stat has little meaning to the game specifically, but it is a good indicator of individual play. My W/L Ratio is dropping too, and that's an indicator that I'm not contributing as much as I used to. Or, I'm contributing the same, but everyone else is hitting harder than me.

Example: my SHD-2K has been a very fun and successful build for me. 285XL w/ 2xLRM5 & 2xLPL Mastered. That double-tap LRM5 has been a real killer. But now I can't stick my Hawk's neck out anymore without a cloud of blue streaks racing at me. Half the Mech's have got twin LRM15 or LMR20's.

I think it's time to take a break from the game and wait for Clan Mechs to become available for c-bills. I don't play this game for anyone else but me, and this is really just becoming an exercise in frustration and wasting my time. This isn't rage quitting. This is knowing when to take your ball and bat and go home and try again later.

Edited by Bigg Robb, 21 June 2014 - 02:48 PM.

[Sug]

Ari Dian, on 21 June 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Ahh yes. I forgot. Mechs are preforming worse when you spend the XP for them. My fault.

I have to Keep this in mind, and stop to waste the XP for the mechs. Who need these tweaks at all....

That was dumb.

[Bigg Robb]

Took a few weeks off, came back for a few games to see what or if anything is different.

First game took my T-Bolt out, Got PPC snipered and LRM stripped to 70% armor and then alpha'd by a MadCat that got close and cored me. I did 78 damage.

Second round, my Victor. 430 damage and 1 kill, much more rounded battle with lots of movement.

Third round my Jenner. Got ass ***** quickly. Despite my Beagle just could not get a streak lock on anything. Did 48 damage.

Final round, T-Bolt again. 150 damage ripping up a spider, but then went around the corner and into the field of fire of a Dire Wolf. Whoops.

So, for me I think the situation is really still the same. For a lone pugger this is crappy odds. Too many Clanners with wicked Alpha strikes, too many groups with coms. I'm not trashing the game, like I've said before. If I had a play group and coms it'd be a lot more fun, even without a Clan pack. But right now for a lone IS pilot I'm basically a walking ATM puking up c-bills and XP for my opponents. I play this game for me, so this is not fun anymore. See you dudes on the flip side. I'll probably try again later but not for a good while.

[Aresye]

Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe it's you that is failing to adjust? It sounds like you're trying to play the same IS builds with the same tactics as before.

Bigg Robb, on 05 July 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

First game took my T-Bolt out, Got PPC snipered and LRM stripped to 70% armor and then alpha'd by a MadCat that got close and cored me. I did 78 damage.

Sounds like you were either completely in the open, or trying to engage in a long range battle. If Clan LRMs are giving you an issue, buy the Radar Deprivation Module and get yourself some AMS. AMS is like a hard counter to Clan LRMs as they fire in streams. The Radar Deprivation module helps ensure you can stay next to cover, pop out to fire, and go back behind cover without LRMs tracking you once out of LOS.

Bigg Robb, on 05 July 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Second round, my Victor. 430 damage and 1 kill, much more rounded battle with lots of movement.

Without posting what builds you're running, it's hard to determine what the issue is. As a Clan player, PP FLD Victors are still quite terrifying.

Bigg Robb, on 05 July 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Third round my Jenner. Got ass ***** quickly. Despite my Beagle just could not get a streak lock on anything. Did 48 damage.

Streaks are a pretty bad idea now with all the missile and AMS modules. They're a very niche weapon that only works in certain conditions.

Bigg Robb, on 05 July 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

For a lone pugger this is crappy odds. Too many Clanners with wicked Alpha strikes, too many groups with coms.

Well for 1, there's only 1 group per side in the solo queue, and most often they'll be focused on the opposing group. 2, considering you play solo, why on earth are you taking streaks? It sounds to me like you're trying to run specific builds like anti-light, short range, or missile support. Considering you have no say on the composition of your team or the enemy's, you need to run loadouts that perform well at all ranges, that aren't hard countered by ECM, and take advantage of the PP FLD that IS mechs offer.

Not saying to run meta builds, but you should be focusing primarily on PPCs, ACs, ER Large Lasers, Medium Lasers, and SRMs when building IS mechs.

[Bigg Robb]

Fair questions.

For the first game, my T-Bolt is a 9S with double AMS and the range module. We were crossing the D5 pass on Crimson into the east side city and that's where I was catching rain (even with the AMS) and that (I think Clanner but not sure) PPC sniper. That got me down to 70% but I was twisting a lot so damage was reasonably spread. But a few seconds later in the buildings I round a corner and there's the MadCat. He's shooting at someone else so I get off a volley and back up but he's quick and comes around the corner and alpha's me. I don't know what he hit me (maybe double PPC + Gauss?) with since the damage screen at that point is showing a list of components destroyed. It's over like that.

In the 1st and last games, more or less the same scenario played out. Admittedly it's a bit of an oversimplification but it's like 1) I meet a Clan Mech at close range, 2) get alpha'd, and 3) read the damage screen.

So I don't think my build is particularly relevant. My armor is, and my 65 tonner these days crumples like a Locust. I think this is a good environment for team play ("Dude don't go around that building I see a TWolf there!!") but for a solo dropper it's been a bit much.

For my Jenner I maybe missed the meta change on the streaks. I sure didn't accomplish much with that today, and you're right, I built it as a specialty light killer. I used to like to chase snotty spiders with it and the 2xSSRM was fun fun fun.

My Vic 9S has 2xML, AC10, 1 SRM6, 1 SRM4, and 1 SRM2. It worked great after the SRM buff. With the mobility of the 350XL and max armor, I think it's probably the only competitive Mech I have.

Anyways, point being, and back the when I first posted this topic (did you read the initial post?) after the Clan launch, is that gaming for a budget conscious business owner, husband, and father of 3, has to be a return on investment. If I feel like most matches are a trip through the grinder, watching my KDR drop and drop and drop, then the game has changed and maybe isn't the right choice for me anymore. It's a great game for a lot of people, and though it isn't P2W it absolutely is pay to stay competitive. Someone posted earlier about having a billion GXP. Well I don't. Buying a Mech and mastering it with C-Bills is a bit of a grind. I don't have the Radar module yet because I don't have 15,000 GXP. Buying progress is easier obviously, but if you want to progress with work it's become such a slow drag especially what with all the doing less damage and dying faster. It's stopped being fun.

There's just other things to do with my time.

[MischiefSC]

My Timber Wolf is flat out not stronger than my IS mechs. Lower win/loss, lower KDR. Right across the board for most of my good IS mechs. My 3D for example, or a Victor - both within 5 tons of it.

My Banshee 3E is god-tier compared to Timber Wolves.

The issue sounds like you're using a stare-down build with your BM. Yep - that's going to get you humped by the clans. Or poptarts, or most IS builds.

Dunno what to tell you, you already answered most the things people would say by saying 'I realize you have an absolute answer to this but I don't want to hear it'.

Okay. So you want people to tell you 'You're right! Clans are totally OPed.'

I would be, flat out, lying.

[Bigg Robb]

LOL, apparently you didn't read enough. I think the Clans should be OP. I like what PGI did with them. It's beautiful work.

I wrote that the game is going the direction of other games like Mechwarrior Dark Age. I used to stomp ass with that at tournaments. Anyone could play, but if you didn't show up with the latest pack, you weren't winning. That's called escalation, spiral, or power creep. It's not P2W but it is, like I said earlier, pay to stay competitive.

It's been almost a year, and I have 11 Mechs in this game. It took a long time to Master them. For example, let's assume there's Joe Blow average player, not too awesome and not sucky, who goes to buy a stock BLR like I recently did, and walk into this, and try to level thru play and not by paying for GXP conversion. It looks like a lot of getting whooped. But is it fun? This is a game right? Just like MWDA when you're no longer willing or able to pay to stay competitive then it's time to go. I don't like walking into high damage alpha strikes like a MadCat can do. I can't afford to buy my own Clan pack. I don't have the mentality of being able to enjoy the game for it's own sake since I like to win at least 50% of the time or at least give as good as I get. I think gaming is a reward and not a lifestyle or my job. So this is a thread about being at that point.

Fun fact: I just got thru playing an hour of Super Mario U, went for a bike ride, and had more fun that those earlier four games.

[Stain Pain]

Bigg Robb, on 21 June 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

I think it's time to take a break from the game and wait for Clan Mechs to become available for c-bills. I don't play this game for anyone else but me, and this is really just becoming an exercise in frustration and wasting my time. This isn't rage quitting. This is knowing when to take your ball and bat and go home and try again later.

So nicely put....

If I still have the patience to forgive PGI for the worst money grab ive seen in a "F2P" game, ill just wait till all Clan mechs are out for C-Bills, ill sell all my junk crappy and useless IS mechs -yes even the hero ones are a piece of s**t nowdays thats why im mad and ill never give the pgfail money again. And then just buy all the clans I can put my hands on. Thats what I will do and thats my advice to all f2p players. Let the suckers that payed those insane ammounts of money play alone for a while, then we come back to pwn them with their own mechs.

Edited by Stain Pain, 05 July 2014 - 08:01 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Bigg Robb, on 19 June 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

Note: I couldn't afford to buy a pack, so this is my take from simply playing in the game, not playing Clan Mechs.

It's faaantastic, beautiful work. PGI should be proud. Over the top with new sound effects and all. Just really adds to the immersion factor. Clan Mech's are like as I remember from tabletop when the invasion first happened- superior war machines mopping the floor with Inner Sphere units. I appreciate the work PGI is doing.

But, there is no way to balance out the Clan superiority with tactics and numbers. Star vs Company isn't going to happen for a casual gamer like me in PUG play. MWO Clanners don't practice Zellbrigen. IS units can't adopt Clan salvage These are things that equalized the battle field back in the story line.

This isn't Battletech, though, it's MWO.

Team balance is achieved right now, and I do think it is pretty balanced, by the fact that a given random game will have roughly even amounts of Clan and IS at roughly equal tonnage. What is 'meta' or whatever for one side is true for both. Yes I know some will drop in groups with coms, but more or less everyone is in the same boat and 12 vs 12 is always going to be pretty balanced especially when the match builder works.

But on the individual level, I'm getting my ass kicked.

I noted in another thread I'm trying to level a Battlemaster right now. Pretty much I'm just getting killed every game. I cannot bring the firepower in terms of tonnage and heat management to compete in the same weight class against a heavy or assault Clanner nor can I be maneuverable enough to compete against the lighter Clan mechs my firepower does match.

(Do not send me your Battlemaster builds. Not the point. Nor do I need to hear about what awesome players you are and how your 5.7 KDR Jager just eats Timberwolves and how I should just learn to play better.)

Here is my point. Escalation was going to happen. It's true in other games (Mechwarrior Dark Age, anybody?) and it was inevitably going to be true here too. It's not PGI's fault; there's no other way. If the Clan Mechs weren't superior they wouldn't be Clan Mechs and we would all scream lame. Likewise, a given IS Mech will NEVER be equivalent to a like tonnage Clan Mech. It just can't be. It's not going to happen.

(Don't send me stats on DPS and burn times for lasers and such. I've read it today.)

Again, the 12 vs 12 play is balanced, but as an individual player I realize I'm simply a c-bill machine for the next Timberwolf that locks on to me.

Eventually Clan units will be available for c-bills and then I can start the long grind of building up a few units, and then I'll probably enjoy play like I did a few days ago. But for now my sense of good sportsmanship is stretched to the end and I think a few of my units are going to need to get garaged.

Well since you speak of the Battlemaster. I had taken a long break so I just recently really focused on mastering my Battlemasters out....right about the time the Clans were introduced. So far my Battlemaster damage and kill rates are easily equal if not better than those I have achieved on the Timberwolf I finally gave in and bought. Also I think most will agree that the Timberwolf is hands down the best example of a Clan mech so lets compare:

As far as firepower and heat management, my most successful Battlemaster has 46.2 firepower, a 1.32 heat management and a 73.3 kph run speed. My most successful Timberwolf has 46 firepower, 1.32 heat management and a 89.1 kph run speed. Basically other than a 15 kph difference in speed, there is no real difference between the two mechs in terms of heat management and firepower. So the best Clan mech is really not much better than a Battlemaster...hmm...well what does that say about Clan mechs like the Summoner or Warhawk, that they are perhaps inferior?

Now I know I am comparing different weight classes but I, as of yet, have not in the remotest sense of the word felt overwhelmed by Clan mechs when playing in my IS mechs. My Cataphracts, Battlemasters, Victors and,T-bolts and even Quickdraws do just fine against them.

At the end of the day, you all got to get over your preconceptions. They nerfed the crap out of the Clan mechs and weapons to the point they aren't clearly superior and in fact, in alot of cases they are inferior to IS mechs and weapons.

These mechs AREN'T the boogiemen from TT, books and lore and if people would stop treating them as such, stop fearing just how badly they KNOW (in their minds if not in reality) they are going to stomp them and actually play the game just like they were facing IS mechs, then their games will improve immensely. Basically, people are spending so much time telling themselves that the Clans are so OPed that they are defeating themselves before they even enter the fight.

[MischiefSC]

Here's the thing - Clan mechs are not OP'ed. You're going to buy them for cbills and rage twice as hard when you see your IS mechs can whump them.

If your IS mech is getting rolled by Clan mechs.... well, I wish I could run into you in game more often

I'm grinding all my Timber Wolf mechs up because the DPS builds are more *fun* to play than pinpoint meta. When I get tired of losing more than I win though, I take 5 or 6 rounds in my Banshee or Jag and rake in kills and easy wins.

By the way -

I took all my BMs to Master without GXP. Depending on the variant, here were the best builds for being successful -

2xAC5, 2xPPC (left shoulder) + 3 ML in right shoulder. Use right arm like a shield. Only use lasers when someone is too close for the PPCs. 325XL, plenty of DHS.

4 PPCs, 2x2 for firing, 2MLs, 375XL and all the DHS you can fit. On Frozen City you can actually fire all 4 at once and not overheat. Good for that cockpit shot on an overheated Atlas.

Don't brawl with it. Any loadout, any distance. It's fat, can't circle well.

A laser build trying to brawl with any other DPS build (be that Clanners or a UAC Ilya) is going to go poorly.

You, of course, have already said that you don't want answers, that even though you've never played Clan mechs you totally get how they play.

The problem though is what's called 'confirmation bias'. You know how *you* play with/against them, you know how *you* feel about them. That sample is tainted by your own limitations though and isn't actually a legit view of the mechs.

My better (not even best, just better) IS mechs out-perform my Timber Wolf in every single way save damage/match.

[Fleeb the Mad]

MischiefSC, on 05 July 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

My Timber Wolf is flat out not stronger than my IS mechs. Lower win/loss, lower KDR. Right across the board for most of my good IS mechs. My 3D for example, or a Victor - both within 5 tons of it.

My Banshee 3E is god-tier compared to Timber Wolves.

The issue sounds like you're using a stare-down build with your BM. Yep - that's going to get you humped by the clans. Or poptarts, or most IS builds.

Dunno what to tell you, you already answered most the things people would say by saying 'I realize you have an absolute answer to this but I don't want to hear it'.

Okay. So you want people to tell you 'You're right! Clans are totally OPed.'

I would be, flat out, lying.

I have to ask, if your main point is that someone failing against clan mechs is using improper builds or tactics, are you sure that the opposing clan mechs in these example encounters are using their best chassis and most optimal builds? Are they using specialized anti-IS tactics that the IS player isn't adapting to?

It means a lot for balance if a poorly optimized fun or experimental build in a clan mech is rolling over their equivalent IS builds, as opposed to failing to roll over any IS build. More to the point,it's not balanced if one player has to try harder in order to win a fight on even footing.

Let's be honest here, not everyone does or wants to run the meta. I don't expect everyone to understand that choice, but it's very common in PUG games. The key point here is that there are a whole pile of poorly optimized Clan builds out there as well that should be a fair fight for an unoptimized IS mech. Should be. Maybe a meta IS mech will still crush either of them, but that's not the point.

I gather that there's a rift here on opinion between different kinds of players. My opinion is that the clans are very much not mech for mech balanced against the IS. Clan lights seem much weaker than their counterparts and clan mediums much stronger than IS ones, much more than the disparity between heavies or assaults. Though I think we're going to see things differently because Clan mechs are much friendlier than IS ones to people who don't run meta builds. Which I think is why we see some people saying they're OP and others saying that they're not.

The balance in more competitive vs casual play isn't the same. My personal experience falls more in line with the OP.

[El Bandito]

Noth, on 19 June 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

How can clan mechs be superior when they die just as easily, heavily lack pin point damage (the true fast killers of mechs) and are less customizable?

Clanners don't die just a easily, they got XL hack. CGauss and CERPPC are great pin point damage weapons, except CERPPC is bugged currently, thus performing not as good as it should. Less customizable is debatable because omnipod swapping opens up huge possibilities.

Statistics speak for itself and I have talked to plenty of pilots who piloted Clan mechs. Clan mechs are superior than IS mechs in the sense that overall the general population get more C-Bill/XP reward by playing Clan mechs than IS mechs. That alone is the reason to always choose Clan mechs in pugs.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 July 2014 - 10:39 PM.

[DjPush]

I have been owned soooooo many times in a Dire/Timber Wolf (The only ones I bought) by:

Atlases
Highlanders
Victors
Cataphracts
Jagers
Hunchbacks
FRACKING RAVENS!!!!!

and Cicadas

IS Mechs can be faster, more maneuverable, more customizable and as previously stated they have better pinpoint damage and heat management.. Kinda seems like you are just giving up and not really trying to make the IS mechs you have work. You are gonna have to rework some of your IS builds. That is supposed to be part of the fun.

[Too Much Love]

Battlemaster was inferior to other mechs even before the invasion, so you shouldn't be surprised that it can't compete with clan tech.

Try rvn4x or spdr5v or any other "bad" mech and you'll get the same result. I would say, in poptart meta Battlemaster has been hurt even more.

[Bigg Robb]

Let me try again.

Before the Clan launch my KDR was about steady at 1.0 and I was fine with that. Why? Well I only pug solo so I'm not in a group with coms, and I don't even own a hero let alone a meta Dragon Slayer. Plus I'm usually leveling up by earning XP and not buying it, so working those basic Mechs means extra losses as should be expected. So if I'm going up against that all the time and holding my own with a 1.0 I think that is pretty good. My W/L was about a 1.2 so I take that to mean I contribute well to my pug groups. "FOR NARNIA AND FOR ASLAN!!!"

Enter the Clan launch. Now, as I've said I think PGI did well. And I believe 12v12 is balanced because all things equal there in a random system you would expect it to average out. But as an INDIVIDUAL player my stats dive thru the floor. I earn fewer cbills and XP too since my performance is lower. It's clear I'm getting whomped. I try different things but come to the conclusion that the ENTERTAINMENT VALUE of working this grind without forking over real dollar bills to leap frog to competitive isn't worth it.

Yes I'm sure so many of you rock a 3.0 KDR with a Locust and it's on up from there for your 'real' Mechs so my explanation must be pathetic. Fine, ok. Good for you.

But this is about how I FEEL playing the game. I don't play for you guys. I play for me. So like I said it's time for a much longer break and we'll see about revisiting this game later. I'm a Battletech lover and I hate to not play this but it's just not a good fit right now because it stopped being fun. Why should that be so complicated? If you still love it fine. I'm glad. I want MWO to be successful and I think the staff works really hard, even if they're not getting my money.