14 replies to this topic

[Li Song]

My proposal is to introduce an inter-alpha micro-recoil. Basically each projectile in the alpha, besides the fastest one, receives a small recoil of approximately 0.2 degrees. At 400 meters this would result in no more than 2 projectiles hitting the same component but most of the projectiles hitting the mech at some location. The fastest projectile would always fly true (typically a gauss rifle round) and other projectiles in the alpha would be slightly scattered.

The recoil is deterministic and would promote symmetric builds. Sniping is still viable, dual Gauss can work but is a bit more difficult, effective pin-point range of Gauss/PPC or AC/PPC combinations is reduced while keeping each weapon individually viable. Laser weapons are not affected.

This change would not affect brawling, as the small recoil will only have an effect at long ranges. Up close, the effect is barely noticeable.

Full details and math can be found here: https://docs.google....H_szTh_xCZlXXdc

This is kind of in the same realm as convergence but is easy to implement.
* Doesn't require changing any existing code or mechanic.
* Just a clean addition of a new piece of code when firing weapons.
* No need to change any data files, existing values are used.
* There are no complex calculations making it a very low load on the server.
As such I believe it to be feasible for PGI to at least try out on the fix on the public test realm.

Edited by Li Song, 30 July 2014 - 04:49 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Essentially your proposal punishes all ranged support builds and alpha brawlers, even though it seems your goal is to merely reduce the effectiveness of the current meta. As such, I think there are much better options out there to do what you want.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Forced Chain fire would stop PPFLD shots lol.

Recoil is a nice idea, but it would pretty much apply nil to lasers. And if lasers had recoil+DoT damage delivery, that would make them very weird to use.

And lolpha striking everything all at once wouldnt really do much to the guns..the gunner would just have to realign for the next shot.

[Li Song]

ScarecrowES, on 29 June 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

Essentially your proposal punishes all ranged support builds and alpha brawlers, even though it seems your goal is to merely reduce the effectiveness of the current meta. As such, I think there are much better options out there to do what you want.

The recoil is very small (0.2 degrees for a PPC) which means that alpha brawlers will still hit all their projectiles at close ranges so brawling will be largely unaffected. Ranged support builds, if you're referring to pop-tarts, then yes they are the target of the nerf-bat. So that is intended. If you're referring large batteries of dakka àla BNC-3E then all they have to do is keep adjusting the crosshair as the dakka gives recoil. Remember the recoil is proportional to the damage, so an AC/2 will have recoil of 0.04 degrees per shot which will be barely noticable.

LordKnightFandragon, on 29 June 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

Recoil is a nice idea, but it would pretty much apply nil to lasers. And if lasers had recoil+DoT damage delivery, that would make them very weird to use.
And lolpha striking everything all at once wouldnt really do much to the guns..the gunner would just have to realign for the next shot.

Yes, for lasers that's correct. And as lasers deliver their damage as DoT they are not a problem for PPFLD because it's not FLD. If you're getting hit by large lasers all you need to do is wiggle your torso to spread the damage. I do not believe LLAS needs a nerf.

"Lolpha striking" would cause the individual projectiles to spread within the alpha, but only to the degree that they wouldn't all hit the same component at range. Brawling would be largely unaffected. And that realigning is what prevents PPFLD.

[Wintersdark]

If you mean applying the penalty between shots in the group - say, firing AC5's and a PPC, you'd fire an ac5 at 0 degrees, another at 0.5 degrees, and the PPC at 1.5 degrees twist, you rub into significant issues with direction of twist and ordering (which weapon is fired at 0 degrees? How can a player designate the "accurate" weapon?). If you mean you twist that much after the alpha, that's not going to do anything at all.

Then, direction of twist. Do you always twist in a certain direction regardless of weapon placement? Is it according to location? Then if I have a heavy metal with ac5's in its right arm and ppc's in its left, do I get a worst-case of 1 degree left twist (+1-2 respectively?).

Its quite complex and we lack controls to... Well, control it.

It would, in the best case, just change which ppfld mechs/builds are preferred and encourage more balanced weapon placement, but not discourage ppfld builds in the slightest.

Even with some inaccuracy, ppfld is vastly superior to scatter damage (massive inaccuracy) and DOT (ToT, inaccuracy due to evasion)

Also, oops, I misread the number calculation for twist, but the points are all the same anyways.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Li Song, on 29 June 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

As of late, I've grown tired of high pin-point, long range sniper meta and the alarmingly short TTK on some mechs.

So I would like to propose, yet another fix to high alpha PPFLD. My proposal is to introduce recoil, even intra-alpha recoil to spread the shots so that they don't necessarily hit the same component.

Any projectile when fired would by recoil slightly twist and tilt the torso based on the projectile damage (initial guess at 0.2 degrees for a 10 damage projectile like the PPC). Even such a small recoil would make it difficult to reliably apply PPFLD at ranges over 400m.

Full details can be found here: https://docs.google....H_szTh_xCZlXXdc

This is kind of in the same realm as convergence but is easy to implement.
* Doesn't require changing any existing code or mechanic.
* Just a clean addition of a new piece of code when firing weapons.
* No need to change any data files, existing values are used.
* There are no complex calculations making it a very low load on the server.
As such I believe it to be feasible for PGI to at least try out on the fix on the public test realm.

I like the simplicity of the concept. I wish the PTR was an always-on situation, and PGI would throw things like this out just to see how it would look.

[Li Song]

Wintersdark, on 29 June 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

If you mean applying the penalty between shots in the group - say, firing AC5's and a PPC, you'd fire an ac5 at 0 degrees, another at 0.5 degrees, and the PPC at 1.5 degrees twist, you rub into significant issues with direction of twist and ordering (which weapon is fired at 0 degrees? How can a player designate the "accurate" weapon?). If you mean you twist that much after the alpha, that's not going to do anything at all.

I have clarified the document on that point. Recoil is added after every individual projectile. I.e. the fastest projectile in the alpha flies true and the rest get progressively more recoil. The "accurate" weapon is the one with highest projectile speed as was stated in section 4.1. second paragraph. If you want a certain projectile to fly true, just don't alpha **** together with it, easy as that.

Wintersdark, on 29 June 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

Then, direction of twist. Do you always twist in a certain direction regardless of weapon placement? Is it according to location? Then if I have a heavy metal with ac5's in its right arm and ppc's in its left, do I get a worst-case of 1 degree left twist (+1-2 respectively?).

This was stated in section 4.2. first paragraph, first sentence. "The recoil from a weapon will turn the torso slightly towards the side the projectile was fired from and tilt the crosshair slightly upwards.".
So fire from the right arm and your torso recoils slightly to the right.

Wintersdark, on 29 June 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

Its quite complex and we lack controls to... Well, control it.

It would, in the best case, just change which ppfld mechs/builds are preferred and encourage more balanced weapon placement, but not discourage ppfld builds in the slightest.

Even with some inaccuracy, ppfld is vastly superior to scatter damage (massive inaccuracy) and DOT (ToT, inaccuracy due to evasion)

Also, oops, I misread the number calculation for twist, but the points are all the same anyways.

It is not complex at all. You shoot a projectile, you get a recoil. Just about every FPS game has it in some degree and it happens with fire arms in real life as well. It's an easily understood physical phenomena.

It would discourage long-range PP FLD. There are many builds that have a fair chance against a PP FLD build when you get close enough. And that is the purpose here. Not to nerf PP FLD into the ground but rather give other builds a fair chance.

Edited by Li Song, 29 June 2014 - 07:22 AM.

[KamikazeRat]

Recoil, i like it....seriously, why isnt this a thing, its realistic, forgetting meta, forgetting gameplay, you're in a mobile platform, firing a superheated superaccellerated stream of matter, its going to push you around a little bit. same goes for BIG A** BULLETS from the Autocannons. Gauss would get another unique quality, because i don't think it should recoil.

[Wintersdark]

Li Song, on 29 June 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

I have clarified the document on that point. Recoil is added after every individual projectile. I.e. the fastest projectile in the alpha flies true and the rest get progressively more recoil. The "accurate" weapon is the one with highest projectile speed as was stated in section 4.1. second paragraph. If you want a certain projectile to fly true, just don't alpha **** together with it, easy as that.

Gotcha.

Quote

This was stated in section 4.2. first paragraph, first sentence. "The recoil from a weapon will turn the torso slightly towards the side the projectile was fired from and tilt the crosshair slightly upwards.".
So fire from the right arm and your torso recoils slightly to the right.

This is what I get from reading quickly on my phone at work. My apologies for not paying closer attention.

Quote

It is not complex at all. You shoot a projectile, you get a recoil. Just about every FPS game has it in some degree and it happens with fire arms in real life as well. It's an easily understood physical phenomena.

It would discourage long-range PP FLD. There are many builds that have a fair chance against a PP FLD build when you get close enough. And that is the purpose here. Not to nerf PP FLD into the ground but rather give other builds a fair chance.

To be clear, I like the concept - hell, I don't care care if they do get nerfed into the ground, thought that of course would have issues.

I'm still concerned, though, that it'd be easy to avoid/mitigate on a left/right balanced build.

I'd still prefer a variable CoF based on heat/speed/alpha size, but that'll never happen.

[KamikazeRat]

Wintersdark, on 29 June 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Gotcha.

This is what I get from reading quickly on my phone at work. My apologies for not paying closer attention.

To be clear, I like the concept - hell, I don't care care if they do get nerfed into the ground, thought that of course would have issues.

I'm still concerned, though, that it'd be easy to avoid/mitigate on a left/right balanced build.

I'd still prefer a variable CoF based on heat/speed/alpha size, but that'll never happen.

if i read correctly in a left/right balanced build, there would be a random delay between the shots, so you would have a left/right or a right/left reaction centering you back, but ultimately slightly skewing the second shot, in a 4 shot volley (ala 4ac5 jagers or the like), it could be a slight push LRLR/RLRLor a LLRR/RRLL or a LRRL/RLLR (in addition to vertical drifting as well) within milleseconds thus introducing a sort of "spread" without impacting the ability to place one shot where you wanted it to go, just the others in a volley would sort of land around it at longer distances without being enough to discourage up close shots from landing where you aim (up close aiming being a little more hectic doesnt need any nerfing)

the more i think about it, this really is a stroke of genious. bravo Li Song

Edited by KamikazeRat, 29 June 2014 - 09:48 AM.

[Li Song]

@KamikazeRat

Thanks. The thing that made me really think about this is that the angle of twist only needs to be so small to make the spread a problem at longer ranges but have next to no effect at medium to short range. And the fact that it's easily understood and should be possible to implement in a short time.

[Mahnmut]

I really like this idea. It would be even better if recoil was more pronounced when in the air though. Hell, if you fire enough large caliber weapons in the air at once it should knock you on your ass

Edited by Mahnmut, 01 July 2014 - 06:23 PM.

[Li Song]

Mahnmut, on 01 July 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

I really like this idea. It would be even better if recoil was more pronounced when in the air though. Hell, if you fire enough large caliber weapons in the air at once it should knock you on your ass

Yeah I agree, or a cone of fire thinggie that gets inaccurate when you move. But thats probably more than we can ask when PGI are so stressed with everything else.

[NoClass]

LordKnightFandragon, on 29 June 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

Forced Chain fire.

Sounds like a lot of fun. Wait no it doesn't.