77 replies to this topic

[SethAbercromby]

Xeno Phalcon, on 14 July 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

Funny enough thats fairly close to one of my favorite brawlhawks: lbx10, 4xASRM6 (Only doable on the WHK - B ) 1ERLL and 1 ERML. One of the many reasons iv been saying the warhawk is essentially a second generation stalker

I can see some trouble arising from the ammo dependency of that build. My Misery avoids a lot off ammunition need with the MLas and PPC but given the lack of space on the Warhawk, I can imagine you running out of ammo fast.

[DrSlamastika]

If you are a good pilot, doesnt matter if you are in IS or CLAn mech!

Edited by DrSlamastika, 14 July 2014 - 04:46 AM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

SethAbercromby, on 14 July 2014 - 04:38 AM, said:

I can see some trouble arising from the ammo dependency of that build. My Misery avoids a lot off ammunition need with the MLas and PPC but given the lack of space on the Warhawk, I can imagine you running out of ammo fast.

Some earlier versions had ammo trouble, my current one takes three tons of lbx ammo and five tons of srm ammo which so far has proven to be sufficient (To date iv yet to run out of ammo). It can heat up pretty fast due to the lasers combined with ghost heat but thanks to the sheer amount of HARDWIRED heatsinks in it I dont have to stop shooting for long on most maps.

EDIT: After checking, Its based on my Mitsuhide build where I dropped a tactical computer and large/med laser in favor of the LBX - though rather than for ammo reasons it was heat, both builds take 5 tons of SRM ammo.

Edited by Xeno Phalcon, 14 July 2014 - 05:12 AM.

[Hobgoblin I]

I can't believe some people are claiming their clan mechs overheat too much. Pilots cause that, not the mech. Clan er large lasers are only 1 slot and a ton less, leaving more space for their superior double heat sinks. All their lasers are the same heat and get more damage and vastly more range. If you are overheating it is because you are firing an obscene amount of firepower in an alpha strike when you could use a little self control and still out damage an IS alpha.

The range or heat (or both) need a modest nerf. The Devs said they wanted to keep clan "flavor" and not make them vastly superior. Give me those clan lasers for my stalker, forgetting about the clan's superior XL enigine and superior double heat sinks, and I'll terrorize the galaxy. The weapons are just too over powered.

[IraqiWalker]

Karmen Baric, on 14 July 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

Clan mechs are definitely more powerful, if you can mount more weapons on a same weight chassis then that chassis (Clan) is superior. Despite Clan weapons taking longer to fulfil the shear output they do stops many IS mechs in place, not to mention all the laser lights, jitter and shake if LRMS or AC are involved (all of which stops correctly targeted return fire). The only chance IS mechs have against Clan ones is in move and sniping, not in a brawl.

My Orion would like to vehemently disagree with you on that.

In fact, clan mechs excel at range. Brawling is where they lose HARD.

Also, mounting more weapons can seem advantageous. However, these weapons all have their own drawbacks which more than make up for lighter weight and slot expense. For example, heat, firing duration, ghost heat linkage, cycle times, and hitboxes.

ThatDawg, on 14 July 2014 - 04:12 AM, said:

clans OR balance

fixed the title for ya

blah blah, November is a long way off, and we sit and wait assuming...what?
Anyone think there will be a nerf when the Clan Mechs are available for fake money BWAHAHAHAHA...
Wont they introduce new real money mechs the same time...again?



and I still can't lose a side torso on my IS mech without dying.

Can you swap engines? Pretty sure you can, so mount a STD engine. The fact that clan mechs have fixed engines is a very devastating nerf. Sure, they can survive losing a side torso, however, they almost universally have huge CTs that draw all fire anyways. It's the same problem with the Dragon.

Hobgoblin I, on 14 July 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

I can't believe some people are claiming their clan mechs overheat too much. Pilots cause that, not the mech. Clan er large lasers are only 1 slot and a ton less, leaving more space for their superior double heat sinks. All their lasers are the same heat and get more damage and vastly more range. If you are overheating it is because you are firing an obscene amount of firepower in an alpha strike when you could use a little self control and still out damage an IS alpha.

The range or heat (or both) need a modest nerf. The Devs said they wanted to keep clan "flavor" and not make them vastly superior. Give me those clan lasers for my stalker, forgetting about the clan's superior XL enigine and superior double heat sinks, and I'll terrorize the galaxy. The weapons are just too over powered.

Oh yes, firing control is the difference between good players and not so good players.

However, the ERLL suffers from the longest firing time in the game (1.5seconds).

That's a 20% increase in damage for a 50% increase in face time.

Funny enough, most of the things you are claiming are "superior" are the ones that most people agree are fine.

The weapons themselves are extremely well balanced with the Inner Sphere actually holding the edge in Ballistics and Missiles. Hands down IS ACs are the most effective weapons in the game. IS LRMs also trump clan LRMs because of the staggered fire. Beam weapons are where clans have somewhat of an edge, in terms of range.

The problem is that most people try and compete with the clans in what they excel at, long range poking and Damage Over Time. If one wants to compete against them there, one needs to be a good enough pilot to compensate for the difference in performance.

Brawling, and close range combat are where they suffer greatly, as the longer face time (exposing those huge CTs), and the large hitboxes mean they can't brawl effectively.

The clan mechs usually end up with comparable amounts of heatsinks to IS mechs. Mostly due to fixed structure slots, fixed equipment, and fixed hardwired heatsinks.

You want to see OP, let me downgrade the Thor's armor to standard, and put in Endo-steel instead. THAT mech would be a real nightmare to deal with.

Clan mechs are balanced even in their construction, all these restrictions, such as locked engines, fixed upgrades, structure slots, pod quirks (90% of non-clan pilots don't know half of them) and equipment help make them comparable in performance to Inner Sphere mechs, instead of superior to them.

If they were OP, I wouldn't be going back to piloting my IS mechs so often. In fact, other than a few wild games with my DWF, my COM-2D usually out-performs every other clan mech I have by itself.

Here's a google doc with the pod quirks, should help people a bit more:

https://docs.google....dit?pli=1#gid=0

Edited by IraqiWalker, 14 July 2014 - 07:22 PM.

[Hobgoblin I]

Iraqi, seems you can't see the forest through the trees. At any point of a clan weapons beam fire it has still done more damage than its IS counterpart and as the range is increased there is less drop off outside of the IS optimal range...all while weighing less and taking up less slots.

The front loaded value of IS AC's is well more than offset by the shear magnitude of damage clan mechs can throw out. The only reason clan mechs end up with a comparable number of heat sinks is because most carry a far larger collection of firepower. No smart IS pilot tries to compete with them at long range poking, but we don't get to magically teleport right in front of them at our optimum range all of the time. The longer range has no drawbacks.

A fairly good advantage in weapons, with a good advantage in engine survivability and weigh balance, and a great advantage in heat sinks all add up to a HUGE advantage

[SethAbercromby]

They have higher damage potential, but it takes much longer for them to actually get there. AC burst mean that cýou can migitate and spread portions of damage, rather than suffering all on one component. Missiles are eaten by AMS much more effecively due to staggered fire. If you have any idea of what you're doing, dictating the range against a clan 'Mech isn't really that hard. As a somewhat capable Assault pilot, I personally have no real issue with Clan tech and in fact have had more concerns about engaging an Atlas than a Dire Wolf.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 14 July 2014 - 08:40 PM.

[Modo44]

Denial is not a river in Egypt. Read a competitive player's perspective.

[SethAbercromby]

Yes I'm in denial. That dead TimberWolf sure looked intimidating.

Competitive players are a folk I don't like and I personally hate it when people run around and spread their opinions like it's solid facts. Experience is the best teacher and up until now, no Clan 'mech has provein itself to me to be vastly superior. In fact, I believe my K/D has been improving over the last month.

[Modo44]

As I said, denial. Thanks for the clear and concise example.

[IraqiWalker]

Hobgoblin I, on 14 July 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

Iraqi, seems you can't see the forest through the trees. At any point of a clan weapons beam fire it has still done more damage than its IS counterpart and as the range is increased there is less drop off outside of the IS optimal range...all while weighing less and taking up less slots.

The front loaded value of IS AC's is well more than offset by the shear magnitude of damage clan mechs can throw out. The only reason clan mechs end up with a comparable number of heat sinks is because most carry a far larger collection of firepower. No smart IS pilot tries to compete with them at long range poking, but we don't get to magically teleport right in front of them at our optimum range all of the time. The longer range has no drawbacks.

A fairly good advantage in weapons, with a good advantage in engine survivability and weigh balance, and a great advantage in heat sinks all add up to a HUGE advantage

(could you please quote my responses, that way I know when you actually respond. Makes it easier to track things)

While I understand your point of view. I'm afraid you are the one focusing on small parts of the argument and missing the whole picture.

First off, let's start with the long range. Other than Alpine Peaks, and Tourmaline Desert, most maps you will be within decent ranges for both clan and IS weapons. The range is also mitigated by the existence of cover, which a massive portion of the player base stubbornly refuses to use. Using map knowledge and terrain, you can close to within optimal range most of the time. Usually without receiving damage.

In terms of sheer firepower, the most devastating build in the game is still the IS Dragon Slayer poptart. Ton for ton, no other mech can match it. Not even the much whined about Direwolf with 2Gauss+2ERPPCs.

Clan mechs are great at damage over time, however, they are awful at PP FLD. While IS mechs are hands down far superior at it. The clan firepower isn't worth much since it can be dodged so easily. That UAC 20 will deal on average only 5 points of damage to the section it should hit. While an IS AC20 will deal the full 20 damage right there. The ability to place precise shots exactly where needed will always trump spreading damage. IS wins at that hands down. No clan mechs can really compete there.

Clans also have an added nasty handicap with PP FLD in the PPC department. The only PPC available is an ERPPC, and it deals 10 damage to the location it hits with a possible 2.5 of the 5 points of splash damage disappearing outright, instead of the full 15 there. Most clan pilots would drop the ERPPC for an IS PPC any day of the week.

The advantage in engine survivability is only when compared to IS XL engines. Which while prevalent, are not the only engines IS mechs have access to. Which is another massive handicap that tends to get ignored. Clan mechs cannot do zombie builds, cannot upgrade engines, and most importantly, cannot downgrade them either.

Fixed structure slots, hardwired DHS, and other components already mentioned hamper most construction and performance possibilities, and they all just get ignored.

Now for your last line. Let's look at the weapon systems . IS have the better LRMs, IS have the better ACs, and clans have energy weapons that are comparable to IS energy weapons. Basically the clan mechs have a slight advantage in energy weapons, while falling behind in both missiles and ballistics. I don't see the big advantage in weapons, the engines are pretty much balanced. Is get customizability with some risk (in case of XLs), while clans forfeit that for some survivability (not much to be honest considering their huge CTs) Their speed is also lacking in most weight classes compared to their IS counterparts.


The main root of these debates is the fact that most people don't understand what balance means. It's not that all weapons operate with similar power. It's that they can be different, but there's a value to picking one over the other, with no clear weapons being the absolute best.

Clan mechs are better at ranged combat, but IS mechs are better at close range combat. THAT is a balanced existence.
Clan mechs are better at DoT, but IS mechs are better at PPFLD. THAT is a balanced existence.

If you want to go be a sniper, you'd have have a better chance of performing well with IS mechs. If you want to be a skirmisher at range, clan mechs would be better. If you want to be a fast moving scout, always go IS (until Dasher is here, and then the clans might be able to compete there), and so on and so forth.

Are clan and IS mechs in a perfect place right now? No.
Is everything absolutely broken and clan mechs are fully OP? Definitely not.
Could balance use more tweaking? Sure. Nothing major, just some small tweaks.

Modo44, on 14 July 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

Denial is not a river in Egypt. Read a competitive player's perspective.

Modo, I enjoy most of your posts, I honestly do. However, I disagree with you on this one.

Regardless of that, it will remain that almost all competitive teams will run IS poptarts instead of clan poptarts. Being as the only mech that can somewhat do that is the T-Wolf. Which is still sub-par compared to the Dragon Slayer. If the Highlander received some tweaks to how it's JJs worked, that might even seal the deal on competitive teams running almost exclusively IS mechs.

IS lights are the absolute kings of their fields right now, there's no comparison. Pretty much if I ever wanted to have an easy game, I just hop into my commando or firestarters, since they out-perform most other things on the field. Then again, I'm somewhat biased in that I've been running lights almost exclusively since Open Beta.

Another problem is that it's the opinion of a competitive player, which while good, doesn't necessarily apply to the game non-competitive players play. There are too many things that don't work the same there.

Clan mechs seem like monsters to players that are inexperienced, and 1 on 1 they can seem daunting. However, their effectiveness drops considerably when premades enter the field, and drops even more so when it's 12 v 12. I wouldn't mind the clan mechs getting some kind of buff (like making their gauss deal 18 damage like it should) when 10 v 12 is implemented to be honest. However, in a 12 v 12 match filled with nothing but PuBs there are too many things that differ. You'll run into a lot more players that don't torso twist, and so they stare a clan mech in the face, and melt, as they rightly should. Thus declaring them OP. Instead of twisting aside after delivering a powerful salvo, to spread the return fire damage.

Again I emphasize: I'm not saying you should run PP FLD to deal with clan mechs. I'm saying that PP FLD makes it easier, and lowers the skill necessary to beat a player of equivalent caliber in a clan mech. If you are skilled, you can beat them in any configuration but that goes without saying, for any mech.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 14 July 2014 - 09:28 PM.

[Hobgoblin I]

SethAbercromby, on 14 July 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

They have higher damage potential, but it takes much longer for them to actually get there. AC burst mean that cýou can migitate and spread portions of damage, rather than suffering all on one component. Missiles are eaten by AMS much more effecively due to staggered fire. If you have any idea of what you're doing, dictating the range against a clan 'Mech isn't really that hard. As a somewhat capable Assault pilot, I personally have no real issue with Clan tech and in fact have had more concerns about engaging an Atlas than a Dire Wolf.

I'm not sure how you guys are missing this, but...sure, one weapon to one weapon you can mitigate clan damage better than IS AC's. However, clan mechs carry a larger amount of firepower (in more and/or bigger weapons) on average so the mitigation isn't really on a one to one scale. As they are usually firing more weapons they actually get their damage out faster.

Dictate the range all you can but with comparable weapon types they have longer range and no minimum...no drawback at all for them.

[Alaskan Nobody]

IraqiWalker, on 14 July 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

clan mechs getting some kind of buff (like making their gauss deal 18 damage like it should)

May I ask where that came from?

Every Gauss I have ever seen, from Mech2, 3, 4 and here - has been 15 damage.

Even what little experience I have with TT has put both Gauss at 15 damage.
Heavy Gauss may have been 18 (I do not remember - just that it was more than normal Gauss)
But Clan Gauss and IS Gauss were both 15 damage - Clan Gauss just had more range.

[Hobgoblin I]

IraqiWalker, on 14 July 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

(could you please quote my responses, that way I know when you actually respond. Makes it easier to track things)

While I understand your point of view. I'm afraid you are the one focusing on small parts of the argument and missing the whole picture.

First off, let's start with the long range. Other than Alpine Peaks, and Tourmaline Desert, most maps you will be within decent ranges for both clan and IS weapons. The range is also mitigated by the existence of cover, which a massive portion of the player base stubbornly refuses to use. Using map knowledge and terrain, you can close to within optimal range most of the time. Usually without receiving damage.

In terms of sheer firepower, the most devastating build in the game is still the IS Dragon Slayer poptart. Ton for ton, no other mech can match it. Not even the much whined about Direwolf with 2Gauss+2ERPPCs.

Clan mechs are great at damage over time, however, they are awful at PP FLD. While IS mechs are hands down far superior at it. The clan firepower isn't worth much since it can be dodged so easily. That UAC 20 will deal on average only 5 points of damage to the section it should hit. While an IS AC20 will deal the full 20 damage right there. The ability to place precise shots exactly where needed will always trump spreading damage. IS wins at that hands down. No clan mechs can really compete there.

Clans also have an added nasty handicap with PP FLD in the PPC department. The only PPC available is an ERPPC, and it deals 10 damage to the location it hits with a possible 2.5 of the 5 points of splash damage disappearing outright, instead of the full 15 there. Most clan pilots would drop the ERPPC for an IS PPC any day of the week.

The advantage in engine survivability is only when compared to IS XL engines. Which while prevalent, are not the only engines IS mechs have access to. Which is another massive handicap that tends to get ignored. Clan mechs cannot do zombie builds, cannot upgrade engines, and most importantly, cannot downgrade them either.

Fixed structure slots, hardwired DHS, and other components already mentioned hamper most construction and performance possibilities, and they all just get ignored.

Now for your last line. Let's look at the weapon systems . IS have the better LRMs, IS have the better ACs, and clans have energy weapons that are comparable to IS energy weapons. Basically the clan mechs have a slight advantage in energy weapons, while falling behind in both missiles and ballistics. I don't see the big advantage in weapons, the engines are pretty much balanced. Is get customizability with some risk (in case of XLs), while clans forfeit that for some survivability (not much to be honest considering their huge CTs) Their speed is also lacking in most weight classes compared to their IS counterparts.


The main root of these debates is the fact that most people don't understand what balance means. It's not that all weapons operate with similar power. It's that they can be different, but there's a value to picking one over the other, with no clear weapons being the absolute best.

Clan mechs are better at ranged combat, but IS mechs are better at close range combat. THAT is a balanced existence.
Clan mechs are better at DoT, but IS mechs are better at PPFLD. THAT is a balanced existence.

If you want to go be a sniper, you'd have have a better chance of performing well with IS mechs. If you want to be a skirmisher at range, clan mechs would be better. If you want to be a fast moving scout, always go IS (until Dasher is here, and then the clans might be able to compete there), and so on and so forth.

Are clan and IS mechs in a perfect place right now? No.
Is everything absolutely broken and clan mechs are fully OP? Definitely not.
Could balance use more tweaking? Sure. Nothing major, just some small tweaks.


Modo, I enjoy most of your posts, I honestly do. However, I disagree with you on this one.

Regardless of that, it will remain that almost all competitive teams will run IS poptarts instead of clan poptarts. Being as the only mech that can somewhat do that is the T-Wolf. Which is still sub-par compared to the Dragon Slayer. If the Highlander received some tweaks to how it's JJs worked, that might even seal the deal on competitive teams running almost exclusively IS mechs.

IS lights are the absolute kings of their fields right now, there's no comparison. Pretty much if I ever wanted to have an easy game, I just hop into my commando or firestarters, since they out-perform most other things on the field. Then again, I'm somewhat biased in that I've been running lights almost exclusively since Open Beta.

Another problem is that it's the opinion of a competitive player, which while good, doesn't necessarily apply to the game non-competitive players play. There are too many things that don't work the same there.

Clan mechs seem like monsters to players that are inexperienced, and 1 on 1 they can seem daunting. However, their effectiveness drops considerably when premades enter the field, and drops even more so when it's 12 v 12. I wouldn't mind the clan mechs getting some kind of buff (like making their gauss deal 18 damage like it should) when 10 v 12 is implemented to be honest. However, in a 12 v 12 match filled with nothing but PuBs there are too many things that differ. You'll run into a lot more players that don't torso twist, and so they stare a clan mech in the face, and melt, as they rightly should. Thus declaring them OP. Instead of twisting aside after delivering a powerful salvo, to spread the return fire damage.

Again I emphasize: I'm not saying you should run PP FLD to deal with clan mechs. I'm saying that PP FLD makes it easier, and lowers the skill necessary to beat a player of equivalent caliber in a clan mech. If you are skilled, you can beat them in any configuration but that goes without saying, for any mech.

This is a lot of stuff to quote...

You say I am focusing on small part then you pick small parts without relating them to the rest of the game.

Range is never mitigated...theirs is always longer with no drawbacks...period. An advantage no matter how you slice it.

The Dragonslayer is not the end all be all of firepower. The meta builds are very effective but plenty of mechs carry more shear firepower. Don't ignore the agilty of the mech is the biggest factor in its success. One mech that can only be purchased doesn't change the whole of the "fleets".

The abilty to place damage right where you want it only trumps spreading it out if the spread isn't a vast amount more than the pinpoint. Clan mechs usually carry and shoot more weapons so a one to one comparison doesn't always mean everything.

Clan PPC's are hardly hanicapped...poor babies do splash damage IN ADDITION to the pinpoint 10. At 1 ton and 1 slot less I don't think anyone is crying about not having a regular clan PPC.

Fixed structure et al aren't being ignored. The volume of harpoints on clan mechs makes that point moot.

I never said the game should be cancelled until thy fix the balance, but clan mechs have a significant advantage over IS mechs, not a flavorful one.

[Gasoline]

Hobgoblin I, on 14 July 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

This is a lot of stuff to quote...

You say I am focusing on small part then you pick small parts without relating them to the rest of the game.

Range is never mitigated...theirs is always longer with no drawbacks...period. An advantage no matter how you slice it.

The Dragonslayer is not the end all be all of firepower. The meta builds are very effective but plenty of mechs carry more shear firepower. Don't ignore the agilty of the mech is the biggest factor in its success. One mech that can only be purchased doesn't change the whole of the "fleets".

The abilty to place damage right where you want it only trumps spreading it out if the spread isn't a vast amount more than the pinpoint. Clan mechs usually carry and shoot more weapons so a one to one comparison doesn't always mean everything.

Clan PPC's are hardly hanicapped...poor babies do splash damage IN ADDITION to the pinpoint 10. At 1 ton and 1 slot less I don't think anyone is crying about not having a regular clan PPC.

Fixed structure et al aren't being ignored. The volume of harpoints on clan mechs makes that point moot.

I never said the game should be cancelled until thy fix the balance, but clan mechs have a significant advantage over IS mechs, not a flavorful one.

The range advantage of the Clans comes with the drawback of time exposed tho. The Clans have one! snap shot pin point damage weapon that required yourself to be exposed for just a glimpse. That's the ER PPC which results in a significant heat spike. The other one-shot weapons require you to be exposed for quite a long time (Gauss charge up) or spread damage all over the place (LB-X).

That said, to effectively utilize the ER PPC you have to expose a significant portion of your mech (no high mounted energy mounts on Clan mechs). The splash damage of the ER PPC is negligible. It's 2,5 damage to the left and right, if there's no left/right, it's negated. If you die from the splash damage, you've already taken so much abuse, that a single MG could've killed you. And they don't do additional damage, they are supposed to do 15 damage. It's just that PGI decided to do the difference to the IS PPC as splash to adjacent locations. IraqiWalker is right, that due to this, every serious player would take an IS PPC over a Clan ER PPC for the significantly lower heat while having the same pin point damage. See a pattern? Why should I do tremendous amounts of damage, when I can effectively two shot enemies (just an arbitrary number)?

The effectiveness of the Dragon Slayer (or Victor in general) is being able to jump and perfectly hit the portion you're aiming for with maximum damage. You just can't do this with a Clan mech. A Dire Wolf cannot jump, a Timber Wolf has the Gauss charge up, making jump sniping extremely difficult.

Yes, Clan mechs have a lot of hardpoints, but that's not always a boon. Alpha Striking in Clan mechs is dangerous. Every lazooors are supposed to be in the same ghost heat scale. So firing 6 ER Medium Lasers in a Nova is fine as well as firing 6 ER Small Lasers. Fire all of them in an alpha strike -> bam, ghost heat shutdown and possible engine meltdown. Clan mechs usually have an energy hardpoint inflation.

Then again. The problem is not Clan mechs... it's the ridiculously high heat threshold that allows us to effectively alpha strike hilarious amounts of weapons.

Hold there for a moment... excessive hardpoints count more than fixed structure, armor and engine? Tell that to the Summoner... or Nova...

Yes, Clans usually outgun IS in range and damage potential. The issue is not, that the Clans outrange the IS, but PGI actively promoting that damned long range meta. Every and all long range weapons got severly buffed, while short range weapons got beaten by the nerf bat.

[IraqiWalker]

Shar Wolf, on 14 July 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

May I ask where that came from?

Every Gauss I have ever seen, from Mech2, 3, 4 and here - has been 15 damage.

Even what little experience I have with TT has put both Gauss at 15 damage.
Heavy Gauss may have been 18 (I do not remember - just that it was more than normal Gauss)
But Clan Gauss and IS Gauss were both 15 damage - Clan Gauss just had more range.

I made a mistake. My apologies.

I was thinking H-Gauss as well.

Hobgoblin I, on 14 July 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

This is a lot of stuff to quote...

You say I am focusing on small part then you pick small parts without relating them to the rest of the game.

Range is never mitigated...theirs is always longer with no drawbacks...period. An advantage no matter how you slice it.

The Dragonslayer is not the end all be all of firepower. The meta builds are very effective but plenty of mechs carry more shear firepower. Don't ignore the agilty of the mech is the biggest factor in its success. One mech that can only be purchased doesn't change the whole of the "fleets".

The abilty to place damage right where you want it only trumps spreading it out if the spread isn't a vast amount more than the pinpoint. Clan mechs usually carry and shoot more weapons so a one to one comparison doesn't always mean everything.

Clan PPC's are hardly hanicapped...poor babies do splash damage IN ADDITION to the pinpoint 10. At 1 ton and 1 slot less I don't think anyone is crying about not having a regular clan PPC.

Fixed structure et al aren't being ignored. The volume of harpoints on clan mechs makes that point moot.

I never said the game should be cancelled until thy fix the balance, but clan mechs have a significant advantage over IS mechs, not a flavorful one.

Yes, I apologize for the long post. It turned out to be a LOT longer than it should have been.

Gasoline illustrated most of the points better than I could, anyways.

However, I did not intentionally focus on one small aspect and ignore others. I merely took specifically the points you focused on, and illustrated what you ignored about them.

[Hobgoblin I]

Gasoline, on 15 July 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:

The range advantage of the Clans comes with the drawback of time exposed tho. ...<snip>

Your snap shot, time exposed and erppc arguments are just covering a very very small piece of the game and are given with no context of how the game is actually played. Yay for front loaded IS AC damage, but the clan mechs carry MORE weapons, so even if they don't get all of their damage on the desired location the net result is usually more damage done to the desired location plus some damage to others.

Yes clan pilots would take the regular old IS PPC, but not at the cost of their 2 slot double heat sinks or lower weight and slot weapons...

"Why should I do tremendous amounts of damage, when I can effectively two shot enemies (just an arbitrary number)?"

a ridiculously low arbritray number but...clan damage output so exceeds IS that the damage done where they want (even if not all of it hits where they want) exceeds IS pinpoint damage.

Dragon slayer pop tart meta is all the IS is good for you seem to be saying. Guess what is getting the nerf bat this patch? If you guessed jump jets, you win,

Hardpoints aren't always a boon? You don't HAVE to use everyone of them. You don't HAVE to fire all of your weapons at once. If you have more weapons than the IS mech you are facing, you can match his alpha and still have more weapons left over to fire half a second later to avoid ghost heat.

I agree with you on PGI and the stupid promotion of long range stand offs, but that is an area where the clan mechs again are superior.

[SethAbercromby]

i think you are dong the same yourself. You assume a Clanner can always fire all or multiple of their weapons regardless of concergence (low slung weapons and all) as well as heat, since packing serious amounts weapons still leaves you will only a few slots left to squeeze in a few more heatsinks. This is why he referred to not needing to pack every hardpoint with a weapon because you might want to keep your heat more manageble at a bit of reduced burst damage. You yourself disregard one of the most essential things that keep clan 'Mechs firmly grounded in the current bamancing implementation. And that is just like with IS 'Mechs, if you pack serious heat (pun intended), you'll get pretty hot pretty fast.

[Hobgoblin I]

Seth, i am talking about the overall. Clan mechs can have more weapons at the same heat, or the same weapons at better heat. It really is that simple. I have disregarded nothing.

[dezgra]

I have very limited experience with the Warhawk and Summoner. They fact that they are way more sexy than any IS chassis is true. My suggestion for those who do not own but want the Clan experience is to turn on ARM LOCK! Got to love it...lol. When I am sad and feeling picked on I fall back to my old reliable Muromets...pay to win baby.