35 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

What about downgrading the lasers of the Prime to ER standards and put some more LRM ammo and armor? I would love to use the Pulses too, however.

[Thorn Hallis]

Not so much worried but curious if and how PGI implements Clan Battlemechs. You know, stuff like the Kodiak, Blood Kite or Tresher. Missing variants aside, given the current system in MWO it would alter the balance yet again as it would give the Clans 'Mechs with the customizability of IS 'Mechs that can carry Clantech.

[CyclonerM]

Thorn Hallis, on 22 July 2014 - 03:48 AM, said:

Not so much worried but curious if and how PGI implements Clan Battlemechs. You know, stuff like the Kodiak, Blood Kite or Tresher. Missing variants aside, given the current system in MWO it would alter the balance yet again as it would give the Clans 'Mechs with the customizability of IS 'Mechs that can carry Clantech.

This is why i believe they would choose the easy route and not include any IIC variant. At best, we might see IS OmniMechs in my opinion.

Wait.. The Mad Cat Mk II is a BattleMech, quiaff?

[KuroNyra]

CyclonerM, on 22 July 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

This is why i believe they would choose the easy route and not include any IIC variant. At best, we might see IS OmniMechs in my opinion.

Wait.. The Mad Cat Mk II is a BattleMech, quiaff?

Aff'.
It was a 90 ton assault mech designed with the chassis of the Timber Wolf by the Clan Diamond Shark.
It used the Timber Wolf chassis and was intented to be sold to other clans.

But the Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon did not bought that Battlemech.
Still it had a lot of popularity and the Battlemech used the Inner Sphere designation by choice of the Clan Diamond Shark.

The Draconis Combine and Federated Commonwealth and the Lyran Alliance bought them in large quantity.



On a side story. The Clan Diamond Shark tried to make the MadCat Mk III and... Well...
"
Description

With the success of the Mad Cat Mk II design Clan Diamond Shark developed the Mad Cat III as a medium 'Mech to accompany the heavy Mad Cat and assault Mad Cat II. Intended for sale to both Inner Sphere and Clan customers, it has been shunned by the Clans save for the Nova Cats and Exiled Wolves as "...an outrage against everything Nicholas Kerensky stood for and taught us." However, it has proven popular with the Successor States and the Republic of the Sphere.^[2]
With its top speed of 97 km/h, the Mad Cat III can quickly close with enemies to bring its short-range armament to bear. Eight and a half tons of Ferro-Fibrous armor adequate protection, though with only ten Double Heat Sinks the design can be easily overheated. The 'Mech makes use of weight-saving technologies in the form of an XL Engine and an Endo-Composite structure.<sup>[2]"

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mad_Cat_III
http://www.sarna.net...i/Mad_Cat_Mk_II</sup>

[Koniving]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 July 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

Homogenation. That is what I fear, as the IS mechs are in a state of it, and the Timber Wolf S furthers the trend. Having tonnage differences would not be a factor if a lighter mech could do something a heavier one in the same class cannot. Jumping Timber Wolf all but obliterates the Summoner as a competing heavy because it can also jump, for example.

On this topic:

Well, honestly MWO needs more to distinguish mechs.

They have engine limits (which at times make no sense. If the Cicada/Spider/Locust have the fastest stock speeds in the game, why does the slow Jenner outrace the Cicada? Why is the Spider and Locust inferior in speed to the much more capable Commando which in turn started out as fast as the Jenner but originally had limits set by PGI which were lower in speed? Why does speed tweak give you 3 extra engine sizes for free? Etc.), they have weapon hardpoints established partially by stock and fluffed (which the mechs with the LEAST armor have the most weapons and therefore have become the meta-favorites)...

But nothing distinguishes a mech's stock armor from another. 50 tons? Okay you, you, you, and you are equal. Even if you're 5 times larger, thicker, etc. Why?

Want to know why the Thunderbolt is so damn big? The 9S for example has IDENTICAL tonnage dedicated to armor as the MOST ARMORED Stalker which is 20 tons heavier than itself. That's why it's so big. In fact, the Thunderbolt under the tabletop "create your own mech" and MWO "everyone is equal" armor limits cannot equip its actual tonnage in armor. Look at it. That free tonnage would give it 432 points total. But it stops at 422. Instead of Thunderbolts being bullet soaking tanks, we see the superior firepower Jagermechs on the scene with amazing armor despite how it's supposed to be paper thin.

Why? PGI has shown it doesn't give a crap about many of the other rules.

Take engine limits. If your Victor was limited to intervals of 80 for engines, you'd be able to use a 240 engine or a 320 and nothing in between. The optimum meta engine is 280 to 300 for most rigs. Know what that means? The typical meta Victor would have to go with a 240 engine which by PGI's screwed heat system means that 1 DHS will be 1.4 instead of 2.0 and require 3 additional slots lost, reducing its effectiveness as a poptart. If you went with a 320 engine, the Gauss rifle is gone. Sure you could do an AC/5, but what are you going to sacrifice? Ammo isn't gonna be easy to pack on. It's that or you sacrifice heatsinks or jumpjets or even dare I say it...armor.

But back to armor.. Want to know why you would choose an Awesome over a Victor? The lowest armored Awesome and the highest armored canon Victor variant has a difference in 80 points of armor, that's 8 standard PPCs worth of additional protection on the Awesome. Then the Awesome 9M? 494 isn't 15.5 tons of armor, but 15.4375 tons of armor. So we're short-changed here, too.

Lets look at another thing PGI chose to overlook. This one I confess is due to a limitation in how they designed the game. Summoners can flip their arms to shoot backwards. Timber Wolves can't (in most cases). Bet its value would significantly increase if it could.

Back to armor again. Want to know what would make the Cataphract 2X and 4X more favorable over the 1X and 3D? It's disturbingly simple, too. More armor. Cataphract 3D has 352 points of armor. The CTF 2X is on par with the Dragon 1C, some Thunderbolts at 416 points of armor. (Actually with true armor tonnage, 2X has 13 tons while the Thunderbolt 9S has 13.5 tons so there's another reason to bring a 65 tonner over a 70 tonner in this case). The 4X has 434 points of armor, which is 13.5625 tons, but is listed as having 14 tons which is 448. Suddenly being so damn slow doesn't matter anymore now does it?

"Shadowhawk is superior to the Hunchback." Oh yeah? Check out their stock armors. Only 2 Shadowhawks come on par with the inferior Centurions in armor, one Shadowhawk comes superior to the Hunchback (in terms of armor) but happens to have the worst hardpoints, and is on par with the 'worst' Centurion who happens to have 'The Most Armor' of ANY 50 ton medium.

"Griffins are superior to Hunchbacks." Actually in terms of armor, the most armored Griffin is identical to Hunchbacks in armor. "Griffins are superior to Kintaros." The most armored Griffin is equal in armor to the least armored Kintaro. "Wolverines are trash." Wolverines have armor on par with and competing against many 60, 65, and 70 ton mechs. In fact all the Wolverines have better armor than the Cataphract 3D.

"But wait, we can't have stock armor, it's so weak."
Then how about this. For all mechs lets just take stock armor and enhance it. On every mech your new armor max is 3 tons more. (Some hero mech stocks would need some adjustment). Why 3 tons you ask? Because with percentages no one would ever use lesser armored mechs as it literally screws them.

"But 3 tons is too much for lights!" I'm well aware, light mechs built in lore for brawling (Raven 4X and Jenner F, I'm looking at you) are going to struggle to add extra armor while assaults can slap it on like a bandaid. This is because brawling lights already have armor on par with or superior to much heavier mechs. Meanwhile light mechs like the Locust will now feel much more empowered.

"But wait, there's a Locust with only 1 ton of armor." True! And now it gets 128 (which is only 10 less than the current max of 138). It's also the Locust variant that carries the heaviest weapons of all Locusts. While most Locusts are just pests, that Locust was meant to be useful on the battlefield in a support role.

Which brings me to another interesting point. Armor limitations would encourage role warfare. Consider this: Why are support mechs in their job in the first place? Poor armor. Why are brawlers considered brawlers? Incredible armor. If everyone has equal armor... then why play a role? If the highest tonnages have the best armor, why use anything less? Exactly.

"But Koniving, this idea is stupid, I'm gonna lose lots of armor and I'm gonna die fast and murr-ruur-rah!" In most cases even the wimpiest armored mechs are gaining. Take a Cataphract 3D. Current max is 434. Stock is 352. 3 tons standard armor is 92 points. 352 + 92 = 444. You just gained 10 points extra armor.
It's true though, some will lose very miniscule amounts. A Jagermech for example, 65 tonners get current max of 422. The most armored Jagermech starts 256 and the least starts 192. Maxing with standard armor at 352 and 288. Yes, it'll lose armor potential. Though I've had a thought on this. What if your stock armor tonnage + 3 tons = new max armor regardless of armor type? Ferro armor would be 108 points at 3 tons.
So lets look back at the JM6-S: 192 is 6 tons standard. If we properly double ferro from tablestop instead of the screwed fraction Ferro is in MWO, it's 36 points per ton. 6 tons Ferro is 216 points of armor. Add 3 tons (108) and it's 324. Now the S and the DD are both the favorites. The DD is 6.5 tons but already has ferro installed, so if it removes ferro its max would decrease accordingly, being 32 points instead of 36 points per ton.
Now look at the JM6-A. Nobody likes this thing. Arms are huge due to the missile launchers. Guess what? At stock it's the most armored Jagermech. 2 tons heavier armor than the Jm6-S and 1.5 tons heavier armor than the DD. The JM6-A tops out at 352 with standard and with ferro at 396 (note that with Ferro if you bring it to 348 you save tonnage, if you bring it to 396 you do not save tonnage).
So you can still get close.

"But Koniving, that still isn't good enough!"
How about this... Instead of trying to lug around 13.1875 tons of armor (the 422 max for Jagermechs), the most you can possibly carry is 11 tons. That's 2+ tons extra to do something else with. Sure with the JM6-A you'll still run an XL engine, but with mostly energy and missile weapons why not run a standard engine? And the JM6-S and JM6-DD respectively have 9 and 9.5 tons in armor, a savings of 4+ and 4.5+ tons of armor. You could convert to a fast standard engine and live so much longer than Jagermechs do right now! Amazing isn't it?

It would completely change how you play the game.

But here's the true beauty of it. Compare the stock armor of any two mechs and subtract the difference. Atlas with 608 armor and a Locust with 128 armor stock. 480 points difference. That's 15 tons. Add 3 tons to both and it's still 15 tons difference between the two. Change it to ferro, and it's still 15 tons difference between the two. No matter what, at their stock and maximums, an Atlas whose stock has 19 tons of armor will always be 15 tons superior to a Locust that started with 4 tons of stock armor.

Now that's preserving a mech's identity.

---------------

What would this mean to Clanners? It's true your armors won't increase when you can't change ferro to standard and vice-versa. But if your Mad Dog starts with 326 armor and your Nova starts with 320, each will be able to fit 3 more tons. On tabletop/Megamek here Mad Dog uses Ferro armor which gives increments of 18 (so again 36 per ton) while the Nova gives increments of 16 (so again 32 per ton).

This has presented yet another problem. PGI has chosen to give Inner Sphere Ferro a 12% bonus so 1 ton of Ferro is 35.84 points (yeah you can see the problems this causes already). They have given Clans a 20% bonus so 1 ton of ferro is 38.4 points...

Anyone wonder why the weight can be so screwy when putting on ferro armor?

Edited by Koniving, 22 July 2014 - 08:05 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Yeah. I do not like very much the Mk III.

However, it looks like the Exiled Wolves bought some MK IIs.

I just love its primary variant, it is just perfect. At least for my tastes. Two powerful Gauss rifles for some high pinpoint damage at extreme distances.. 2 LRM 10 for a useful indirect fire capability that i always appreciate.. All rounded by four ER Medium Lasers for that flexibility at close-medium ranges you always like..

All of this on a 90ton chassis with JJs and that goes at 68 KPH?!

Koniving, on 22 July 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

On this topic:

Well, honestly MWO needs more to distinguish mechs.

*Wall of maths*

Wow, nice post . I always said that. Honestly i have played quite a few matches in MW:LL and i have rarely felt the annoying need of customizing my 'Mechs. I mean, if there was a way to save my loadouts in-game or switch back quickly from stock to customized ones, i would love to play in a stock only queque. I bet it would be very funny. For the time being, i bet i will have to try to join one of the stock 'Mech days..

Edited by CyclonerM, 22 July 2014 - 08:03 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Mistake, double post.

Edited by CyclonerM, 22 July 2014 - 08:04 AM.

[Koniving]

CyclonerM, on 22 July 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

Wow, nice post . I always said that. Honestly i have played quite a few matches in MW:LL and i have rarely felt the annoying need of customizing my 'Mechs. I mean, if there was a way to save my loadouts in-game or switch back quickly from stock to customized ones, i would love to play in a stock only queque. I bet it would be very funny. For the time being, i bet i will have to try to join one of the stock 'Mech days..

Dragons and Awesomes are kings in stock only matches, where the Victors are cannon-fodder (unless they get close, then it's an almost even fight).

Actually in our Solaris Arena testing (we're doing custom Solaris lore inspired rules for extra 'showy' combat with enforced chain fire, no more than two weapons fired at once, etc), two of our guys did a battle with an Awesome 8Q and a Stormcrow. Rules were no more than 2 weapons fired at once, PPCs can only be fired one at a time, no headshots, and both mechs were stock. Combat began at 200 meters apart.

The Awesome 8Q won.

Edited by Koniving, 22 July 2014 - 08:12 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Koniving, on 22 July 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

Dragons and Awesomes are kings in stock only matches, where the Victors are cannon-fodder (unless they get close, then it's an almost even fight).

Interesting. I definitely need to partecipate in one of the Clan era stock matches with a stock TW Prime.

[KuroNyra]

I keep hearing speed tweak about the clans mech...


What do you mean by that?

[CyclonerM]

KuroNyra, on 22 July 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

I keep hearing speed tweak about the clans mech...


What do you mean by that?

I suppose they mean the speed tweak skill you unlock in the mech tree.

[KuroNyra]

CyclonerM, on 22 July 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

I suppose they mean the speed tweak skill you unlock in the mech tree.

THERE IS?!
O_O'


School is everyday I suppose!

[Keeshu]

@ The whole uniqueness of mechs
I do believe they said they were going to do it eventually, but they were focusing on other things first. We still don't even have community warfare out yet, and they seem to be working hard on that now. The uniqueness is really needed. Even if something is underpowered, if it can do a playstyle no other mech can, it's good enough because it will be used by someone who needs that playstyle available.

CyclonerM, on 22 July 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

What about downgrading the lasers of the Prime to ER standards and put some more LRM ammo and armor? I would love to use the Pulses too, however.

I was just mentioning builds that only the Mad Dog could do, that the Timber Wolf cannot. If i was mentioning every single Mad Dog build, the list would be much much longer. The Timber Wolf can easily do the Mad Dog's Prime loadout (but needs to drop .5 tons off the armor to get the same weapon tonnage).
Though if I'm using the prime, I'd probably downgrade the LRMs to 15s to get more ammo if I wanted to use the pulse lasers. Or I might use 4 Medium pulses and keep the LRMs as 20s for maximum missles.


Though if I'm doing builds that both the Mad Dog and Timber Wolf can do I'd probably do one of the following (probably taking a half ton armor off the Timby too):
4 LRM 15, 4 Medium pulses - Basically an LRM boat, but I don't like my LRM boats to not have backup weapons
2 LRM 20(15), 2 ER PPC - My 2 favorite weapons in one build.
2 AC 5, 4 Medium Pulses - Generally not a fan of Autocannons, but I love the rediculously low heat, long range, decent damage of AC/5s
4 ER Large Lasers - Rifleman IIC was my first mech in any mechwarrior game (MW2), and it was my favorite for a long time until it's speed started to get to me. IMO you should never move the same speed that's the norm for a weight class heavier than you (and 54km/assault speed is too slow for me to bare anyways). Maybe I'd replace the ER with Pulses if the heat management is good enough, and shortened range isn't too bad.
2 LRM 15/20 ,2 (s) SRM 6, 4 Medium lasers. LRMs for long range support, SRMs to soften up people (and for when my FPS drops), and Mediums to surgically remove parts from people and finish them off

Depending on the day, sometimes I will replace something with a tag, narc, or something else like that because I love being supportive.

Also, Mechwarrior games really make me want things to be symmetrical for some reason. Unless I'm doing one really powerful right arm gun thing (kind of like a Shadow Cat).

[LordLosh]

to be able to change my engine one day and a Kodiak

and a marauder

[Sandpit]

Koniving, on 22 July 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

Stuff

Here's the thing. No way the underhive would allow something that complex and diverse. I, personally, love it. Adds flavor and makes all variants and chassis viable. I don't see it going over with the masses though.

HOWEVER
What if, like just about every other online game out there in the 21st century, PGI actually gave those wanting stuff like this a "hardcore" mode where we can get something like this?

[Gasoline]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 July 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

Spoiler

Homogenation. That is what I fear, as the IS mechs are in a state of it, and the Timber Wolf S furthers the trend. Having tonnage differences would not be a factor if a lighter mech could do something a heavier one in the same class cannot. Jumping Timber Wolf all but obliterates the Summoner as a competing heavy because it can also jump, for example.

That is one of the reasons I want the Hellbringer. It brings something new to the game, let alone to the Clan heavy lineup: ECM heavy mech. None of the others offer that option (yet). Its price? Badly optimized base configurations that are all about four tons shy on armor and not jump capable. You cannot pop tart in a Hellbie but you offer fantastic team utility and respectable firepower.

Another mech I want is the Huntsman, which is like a more flexible Nova, loadout wise. Would probably supercede the Stormcrow as the best Clan medium out there as it is jump capable, has plenty of pod space for guns, and can cram your choice of energy, ballistic, or missiles. However, just like the Shadowcat, it is first seen in use by Nova Cat pilots in the battle of Luthien.

Arctic Cheetah, on the other hand, is a mech I want badly, but I fear it is so good at what it does it would obsolete the other light mechs in the game. Not just clan mechs, but all light mechs. Then again, with faction locking in CW, IS cannot use the mech anyways.

The Hellbringer is actually an odd horse. It suffers from the same issues the Summoner already has without JJ.

Standard chassis, standard armor and hilariously weak stock armor (8t) for 28.5t pod space. Talking about available pod space: stock it has more pod space than a 10t heavier Timber Wolf (27.5t - but it has 12t armor stock)!

Mad Dog has the same problem. Incredible firepower (28t pod space stock), but a glass cannon (8.5t armor) and standard internals... at least it has FF armor.

Just as a comparison... the Summoner has 9,5t armor stock and 22.5t pod space.

The 45t Shadow Cat has 7t armor stock, XL engine, FF, ES, runs as fast as any Clan light (without MASC) in game so far and has more pod space than it's larger cousin the Nova (17t for the Shadow Cat, 16t for the Nova) and can jump. So it would most likely invalidate anything below 55t currently available. It's TRO3058 tho, so not likely anytime soon.

The TRO3050's we don't have so far are: Hellbringer (65t), Mad Dog (60t), Executioner (95t), Gargoyle (80t), Ice Ferret (45t), Viper (40t), Mist Lynx (25t) and Fire Moth (20t). 4 of them are significantly faster than anything Clan we have so far (both lights and both mediums). Two of them are ECM capable (Mist Lynx and Hellbringer), two have potential hero variants of ECM capability (Fire Moth Aletha and Gargoyle Conal).

On another note: Want to fix the Timbertart? Adapt TT heat threshold, delayed convergance and increase the ST quirks to 25% increased overheat damage for each. Timbertart fixed.

CyclonerM, on 22 July 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

Interesting. I definitely need to partecipate in one of the Clan era stock matches with a stock TW Prime.

Actually the Timber Wolf Prime config is so incredibly potent by itself (just 2 points short of max in stock armor, incredibly good hitboxes, terrifying loadout) that it's prolly boring running this in a stock match . Try a Summoner Prime for the extra challenge.