25 replies to this topic

[Jack Corban]

Ok this is yet another petition to PGI to get this more attention.

If you have read the corresponding thread on the General Discussion Forum and you support this leave a comment and don't forget to vote.

If you stumbled over this on your own go and read the corresponding Thread on this issue and feel free to join the discussion.

As this is not a poll but a petition there is only positive votes.
If you support this. Vote. If not don't.

PGI has shown intrest in this



Cheers.

Edited by Jack Corban, 25 July 2014 - 07:07 PM.

[Rhaythe]

I would absolutely love to see this as some kind of configuration mode for private matches. In fact, private matches need far more customization - such as restricting heat sink types, engine types, weapons, jump jets, etc etc etc. However, I'm not entirely convinced a stock mode would be successful as its own public queue. Reasons being:

• Double heat sink stocks would be run far more than any other kind of stocks, and SHS cannot stand up against DHS in terms of brute force put downstream; Hero and champion mechs would reign supreme, making this a very pay-to-win situation.
  
• The Meta would not necessarily change; people would flock to the K2 and the 8Q, which are some of the most common chassis in Stock Mech Monday
  
• Stock clan mechs brutally slaughter their stock Inner Sphere cousins. It's not even close. Give how much of the population is currently playing clans, this is like dividing your target audience in half.

Also - I'm @RobertDMarion, and Russ was simply retweeting my tweet. He was not endorsing Stock Mech Monday in that image.

Edited by Rhaythe, 25 July 2014 - 04:11 PM.

[Jack Corban]

Rhaythe, on 25 July 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

I would absolutely love to see this as some kind of configuration mode for private matches. In fact, private matches need far more customization - such as restricting heat sink types, engine types, weapons, jump jets, etc etc etc. However, I'm not entirely convinced a stock mode would be successful as its own public queue. Reasons being:

• Double heat sink stocks would be run far more than any other kind of stocks, and SHS cannot stand up against DHS in terms of brute force put downstream; Hero and champion mechs would reign supreme, making this a very pay-to-win situation.
  
• The Meta would not necessarily change; people would flock to the K2 and the 8Q, which are some of the most common chassis in Stock Mech Monday
  
• Stock clan mechs brutally slaughter their stock Inner Sphere cousins. It's not even close. Give how much of the population is currently playing clans, this is like dividing your target audience in half.

Also - I'm @RobertDMarion, and Russ was simply retweeting my tweet. He was not endorsing Stock Mech Monday in that image.

The problem i'm having with Public matches are the following. They need Premium to set them up. You cannot just drop and play Stock.

[HlynkaCG]

Rhaythe, on 25 July 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

• Double heat sink stocks would be run far more than any other kind of stocks, and SHS cannot stand up against DHS in terms of brute force put downstream; Hero and champion mechs would reign supreme, making this a very pay-to-win situation.

I feel that you are overstating the problem here. Few if any of the hero mechs are truly "out there" in terms of loadout and you must remember that with fixed load-outs the choice between a AWS-8Q and AWS-9M or CN-9AL and CN-9D is not nearly as one-sided as you make it out to be. Likewise, in regards to champions a 10 % XP boost is hardly a game changing advantage.

[Rhaythe]

Jack Corban, on 25 July 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

The problem i'm having with Public matches are the following. They need Premium to set them up. You cannot just drop and play Stock.

I don't disagree with that statement. Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see a public queue. But it'd need to be carefully set up.

HlynkaCG, on 25 July 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

I feel that you are overstating the problem here. Few if any of the hero mechs are truly "out there" in terms of loadout and you must remember that with fixed load-outs the choice between a AWS-8Q and AWS-9M or CN-9AL and CN-9D is not nearly as one-sided as you make it out to be. Likewise, in regards to champions a 10 % XP boost is hardly a game changing advantage.

I don't mean the XP boost - I mean the loadout. Stock queues would have to set Champion mechs to their non-champion stock loadouts to be fair. And I never said any of the non-clan stock builds were "out there"; I'm just saying the meta wouldn't magically disappear. Meta-kiddies would just flock to certain mechs to try to recreate it there.

[Jack Corban]

Rhaythe, on 26 July 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

I'm just saying the meta wouldn't magically disappear. Meta-kiddies would just flock to certain mechs to try to recreate it there.

And they'd Fail

[Rhaythe]

Hopefully!

[ExAstra]

I'd like to see something like this implemented.

It seems like every Atlas build out there includes an AC/20 and 2-3 SRM6s. It's all short range, high burst, high kill potential mechs. Well not all, but it certainly dominates public matches.

This does seem to beg the question of; would stock clan mechs be allowed as well? The main reason I ask is that the difference in power of a stock TBR-Prime and a stock ON1-K is quite large. They're the same tonnage, but part of the current balance of Clan vs IS is just how customizable the IS mechs are when compared to clan (due to not being locked omnimechs).

There are certain other balances, such as burst firing LRMs vs Streaming, clan UACs are more likely to spread damage instead of focus due to firing method, etc.. but a TBR-Prime would be able to run circles around most Orion variants while tearing them to shreds. The ON1-K(c) wouldn't even fair much better, in my opinion.

[General Taskeen]

The best way to do it is through server mutators.

Examples:

[ ] Assault
[ ] Conquest
[ ] Skirmish
[ X ] Any

[ X ] Stock 3025
[ X ] Stock 3050
[ X ] IS vs IS
[ ] IS vs Clan
[ ] Clan vs Clan

Since PGI/IGP doesn't seem to want to go back to the old style dedicated server rooms, this is the only way I can think of it working in the context of randomly matched with people.

This selection example here means "Any Game Mode, but only IS vs IS, and Stock 3025 OR Stock 3050"

By mixing and matching selection options, people join the kind of match that they want. So for instance, they don't want stock? Then don't select it, and thus you are matched with Custom "Mechs" but you can choose between IS vs IS, IS vs Clan, and/or Clan vs Clan still. However, certain mutators would have to be made not work in conjunction Like "stock 3025" and "IS vs Clan" - "Clan vs Clan" options wouldn't work.

Another simple example to narrow the search (like other Multiplayer games out there):

[ X ] Assault
[ ] Conquest
[ ] Skirmish
[ ] Any

[ X ] Stock 3025
[ ] Stock 3050
[ X ] IS vs IS
[ ] IS vs Clan
[ ] Clan vs Clan

Stock 3025 essentially always means "is vs is" anyways. So in this case its strickly "Assault Mode Only, Stock 3025 Only, IS vs IS only" Choosing a Mech with Tech 2 would have to throw out an error that the "This Mech is a Stock Tech 2, can not join with this one"

The Stock options would have to work like the old games, where it just simply reverts your 'Mech to Stock automatically when joining.

Edited by General Taskeen, 26 July 2014 - 03:00 PM.

[Carl Avery]

My two bits:

While the Catapult K2 is one of the best (if not the best) tech-one stock heavy 'mechs, it isn't nearly as powerful relative to the average T1 stock 'mech as the top dogs (e.g. Victor, Timberwolf) are in public matches, relative to the average 'mech run in those same public matches. Stock, the Awesome 8Q is generally less effective (ton for ton, for sure) than the Catapult K2, and is certainly less powerful than the Atlas D. The "meta" (that's a misnomer ... pro-level playstyle, really) of stock 'mech matches would likely be as many Atlas D's as you can field, with -- yes, it's true -- as many Catapult K2s as you can field, followed most probably by Hunchbacks and Raven 4X's. One of the lights might be a Jenner F or a Locust, to function as a scout (the stock Raven 4X is more similar to a medium in its abilities and role, and thus it does not make a good scout 'mech).

However, again: though the K2 would indeed be the go-to T1 stock heavy for pro-level players, the K2 isn't nearly as powerful relative to the average T1 stock 'mech as the pro-built Timberwolf is relative to the average customized 'mech. If there were a "stock meta," it wouldn't be nearly as overpowering as the current public-match pro-level mech-build combinations. Same is true for the best stock 'mechs of all other weight classes.

T1 stock gameplay isn't particularly well-balanced, but it's much closer to being balanced than public (mis)matches are. While there are still underdog 'mechs that don't stand a chance, they're much rarer than in public games, and the average T1 stock 'mech has much more of a chance to shine than the average 'mech in public matches. This is why I love stock -- I'd much rather have customization, if it were reasonably well balanced, but customized builds will never be well-balanced in this game, because PGI doesn't seem to be interested in implementing the sorts of game mechanics (e.g. hardpoint sizes & mechlab-set fixed convergence) which could do so.

Edited by Carl Avery, 26 July 2014 - 04:29 PM.

[focuspark]

... where's the "couldn't care less, won't participate" voting option?

[Carl Avery]

focuspark, on 26 July 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

... where's the "couldn't care less, won't participate" voting option?

It's in the upper right corner of the main menu, labelled "play now."

[ExAstra]

General Taskeen, on 26 July 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

The best way to do it is through server mutators.

....

Choosing a Mech with Tech 2 would have to throw out an error that the "This Mech is a Stock Tech 2, can not join with this one"

The Stock options would have to work like the old games, where it just simply reverts your 'Mech to Stock automatically when joining.

Indeed, that could work. Could there be no option for Stock 3050 IS vs Clan? Would they balance it out in some other way? For example a binary Clan force vs. a full company of IS mechs?

Carl Avery, on 26 July 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

My two bits:

While the Catapult K2 is one of the best (if not the best) tech-one stock heavy 'mechs, it isn't nearly as powerful relative to the average T1 stock 'mech as the top dogs (e.g. Victor, Timberwolf) are in public matches, relative to the average 'mech run in those same public matches. Stock, the Awesome 8Q is generally less effective (ton for ton, for sure) than the Catapult K2, and is certainly less powerful than the Atlas D. The "meta" (that's a misnomer ... pro-level playstyle, really) of stock 'mech matches would likely be as many Atlas D's as you can field, with -- yes, it's true -- as many Catapult K2s as you can field, followed most probably by Hunchbacks and Raven 4X's. One of the lights might be a Jenner F or a Locust, to function as a scout (the stock Raven 4X is more similar to a medium in its abilities and role, and thus it does not make a good scout 'mech).

However, again: though the K2 would indeed be the go-to T1 stock heavy for pro-level players, the K2 isn't nearly as powerful relative to the average T1 stock 'mech as the pro-built Timberwolf is relative to the average customized 'mech. If there were a "stock meta," it wouldn't be nearly as overpowering as the current public-match pro-level mech-build combinations. Same is true for the best stock 'mechs of all other weight classes.

T1 stock gameplay isn't particularly well-balanced, but it's much closer to being balanced than public (mis)matches are. While there are still underdog 'mechs that don't stand a chance, they're much rarer than in public games, and the average T1 stock 'mech has much more of a chance to shine than the average 'mech in public matches. This is why I love stock -- I'd much rather have customization, if it were reasonably well balanced, but customized builds will never be well-balanced in this game, because PGI doesn't seem to be interested in implementing the sorts of game mechanics (e.g. hardpoint sizes & mechlab-set fixed convergence) which could do so.

I feel I have to agree with you on some points. Most notably is that some "stock" mechs are arguably better, or more favorable compared to others. Part of this is due to the fact that the game plays out in real time involving player skill, intuition, and experience, as opposed to turn based, roll-of-the-dice style from the TT. I feel that despite this, however, the people playing "stock" mech matches and the people playing double AC/20 boomcats are people with entirely different mindsets and desires from the game. I'd love to have a metagame that was not min-max, where fielding balanced, or "more" balanced mechs was the norm, but it simply won't ever be. People are too excited about the numbers to want to play that way.

Stock mech matches, even if an Awesome is less favorable than an Atlas, would still find more Awesomes in play. Especially when you consider the ammo limitations on most stock mechs. Considering they have a balanced payload, their ammunition levels are in-line with using those weapons "as necessary" instead of "because it's necessary". Someone with an itchy trigger finger on an AS7-D is going to find themselves without an AC/20 very, very quickly. It only gets 14 shots, after all.

Keep in mind that (not accounting for the difficulty of coding here), PGI could simply "turn off" ghost heat for stock mech matches. Ghost heat was implemented, if I'm correct, due to the massive amount of "fit as many of the biggest weapons as you can" mentality. This would significantly improve an Awesome's playability over the K2 in just that 3 PPC alpha > 2 PPC alpha. Yes, with less speed, and no real support weapons, but with more armor, etc.

I just feel that, if nothing else, we'd at least get more versatility and strategy than in the current matches. Which would still be open for those that wanted to run their AC/40 Catapult K2s.

[HlynkaCG]

Rhaythe, on 26 July 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

I don't mean the XP boost - I mean the loadout. Stock queues would have to set Champion mechs to their non-champion stock loadouts to be fair. And I never said any of the non-clan stock builds were "out there"; I'm just saying the meta wouldn't magically disappear. Meta-kiddies would just flock to certain mechs to try to recreate it there.

first off why in Blake's name would you NOT restrict the champions to their stock (non-champion) loadout. Second, raging against the meta-game is like raging against gravity. It is a fact of life that so long as there are differences between the different chassis, and variants, some of those chassis' and varients will be viewed as more or less viable.

The only way to eliminate meta-gaming is to give all mechs the same load-out, speed, hit-boxes, etc...

[Gladewolf]

most stock mechs that have ammo do not carry nearly enough...making stock energy boats the new meta for that class of play...so no, not interested.

[General Taskeen]

Gladewolf, on 27 July 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

most stock mechs that have ammo do not carry nearly enough...making stock energy boats the new meta for that class of play...so no, not interested.

Incorrect. That is a Myth of Stock Mode brought on by too much customization syndrome.

Edited by General Taskeen, 28 July 2014 - 06:08 AM.

[ExAstra]

General Taskeen, on 28 July 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

Incorrect. That is a Myth of Stock Mode brought on by too much customization syndrome.

Have to agree. 14 shots of AC/20 ammo in an Atlas-D is really just fine. Enough to make some serious dents and score a few kills to anyone with a trained trigger finger.

It's not good enough for the AC/40 Jager that skimps on absolutely everything else just to put as much AC/20 damage down as it can.

[Gladewolf]

ExAstra, on 28 July 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

Have to agree. 14 shots of AC/20 ammo in an Atlas-D is really just fine. Enough to make some serious dents and score a few kills to anyone with a trained trigger finger.

.....The Atlas?! What about those of us that like driving other mechs? Which one of you will be piloting the Cat-A1 with only 4 tons of ammo and 0 backups? Or how about the JM6-S with 2 tons of AC-5 ammo, 1 ton of AC-2 ammo and less armor than many light mechs? You imagine that's fair against an Atlas with full doubled armor?! There, meta creation has already begun right here in this forum.

General Taskeen, on 28 July 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

Incorrect. That is a Myth of Stock Mode brought on by too much customization syndrome.

If all mechs were actually using REAL stock configurations (half armor) then fine, but that isn't the case. Mechs with ammo(that aren't carrying AC20s lol) need more ammo to be effective against doubled armor. What is a myth is that you see these configurations as stock in the first place.

[defcon won]

Suggested this a long time ago. I want a queue for it in all types of matchmaking, not just private matches though.
And without having to rebuild mechs before and after, just an automatic loadout change.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

General Taskeen, on 26 July 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

The best way to do it is through server mutators.

Examples:

[ ] Assault
[ ] Conquest
[ ] Skirmish
[ X ] Any

[ X ] Stock 3025
[ X ] Stock 3050
[ X ] IS vs IS
[ ] IS vs Clan
[ ] Clan vs Clan

Since PGI/IGP doesn't seem to want to go back to the old style dedicated server rooms, this is the only way I can think of it working in the context of randomly matched with people.

This selection example here means "Any Game Mode, but only IS vs IS, and Stock 3025 OR Stock 3050"

By mixing and matching selection options, people join the kind of match that they want. So for instance, they don't want stock? Then don't select it, and thus you are matched with Custom "Mechs" but you can choose between IS vs IS, IS vs Clan, and/or Clan vs Clan still. However, certain mutators would have to be made not work in conjunction Like "stock 3025" and "IS vs Clan" - "Clan vs Clan" options wouldn't work.

Another simple example to narrow the search (like other Multiplayer games out there):

[ X ] Assault
[ ] Conquest
[ ] Skirmish
[ ] Any

[ X ] Stock 3025
[ ] Stock 3050
[ X ] IS vs IS
[ ] IS vs Clan
[ ] Clan vs Clan

Stock 3025 essentially always means "is vs is" anyways. So in this case its strickly "Assault Mode Only, Stock 3025 Only, IS vs IS only" Choosing a Mech with Tech 2 would have to throw out an error that the "This Mech is a Stock Tech 2, can not join with this one"

The Stock options would have to work like the old games, where it just simply reverts your 'Mech to Stock automatically when joining.

General Taskeen, on 26 July 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

The best way to do it is through server mutators.

Examples:

[ ] Assault
[ ] Conquest
[ ] Skirmish
[ X ] Any

[ X ] Stock 3025
[ X ] Stock 3050
[ X ] IS vs IS
[ ] IS vs Clan
[ ] Clan vs Clan

Since PGI/IGP doesn't seem to want to go back to the old style dedicated server rooms, this is the only way I can think of it working in the context of randomly matched with people.

This selection example here means "Any Game Mode, but only IS vs IS, and Stock 3025 OR Stock 3050"

By mixing and matching selection options, people join the kind of match that they want. So for instance, they don't want stock? Then don't select it, and thus you are matched with Custom "Mechs" but you can choose between IS vs IS, IS vs Clan, and/or Clan vs Clan still. However, certain mutators would have to be made not work in conjunction Like "stock 3025" and "IS vs Clan" - "Clan vs Clan" options wouldn't work.

Another simple example to narrow the search (like other Multiplayer games out there):

[ X ] Assault
[ ] Conquest
[ ] Skirmish
[ ] Any

[ X ] Stock 3025
[ ] Stock 3050
[ X ] IS vs IS
[ ] IS vs Clan
[ ] Clan vs Clan

Stock 3025 essentially always means "is vs is" anyways. So in this case its strickly "Assault Mode Only, Stock 3025 Only, IS vs IS only" Choosing a Mech with Tech 2 would have to throw out an error that the "This Mech is a Stock Tech 2, can not join with this one"

The Stock options would have to work like the old games, where it just simply reverts your 'Mech to Stock automatically when joining.

That is exactly the way things should be done.
But for a good start I would be even happy if we get stock play option at LEAST in our privet matches. We pay for this for god sake, and we want to play it as we want. On top of that I would add pilots skill reset and no module option as well.

On other part some folks in this thread that clearly never played stock matches dont know absolutly nothing what thay are talking about.

And I caina disagree about clear stock meta. I run meks that are not considered meta, still I am considered by a community as a "heavy hitter" and eated many AWSs and CPLTs. Thare are very few meks that seams to really not fit mwo mechanics, particulary AC2 looks to be too much off of the TT standards. 1 ton of AC2 ammo in TT last like forever and here is running dry like in no time. We could mention melee oriented meks also, that for obvious reason are poorly represented in MWO game mechanics.