64 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

cdlord, on 31 July 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

When it comes to Trek, only think that can be considered "canon" is what shows up on the screen. I think it's the same with Star Wars too, lots of novels might be invalidated by the next three films.....

They've a;ready specifically stated that

Gallowglas, on 31 July 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

My point is that there's no property that's ever static unless the creator is dead and nobody is allowed to touch their stuff. Canon has been rewritten every single time a TRO, game title, or book was released. The old canon simply adopted the new stuff. There are ways to handle such things delicately and respectfully without disrupting any love anyone has for established canon. Anyone who is looking forward to CW should realize that they're essentially going to be playing content that's contrary to canon at some level.

My point is that many of the players here enjoy and love the canon which is why it's an important aspect for this particular IP.

CW doesn't affect canon, it affects our game. Nothing that happens in this game will affect canon in the Btech universe BUT many of us here care about the canon because that's what this game is based on. They've already broken canon and taken some liberties.

There's a big difference in tweaking the timeline a little and adding in stuff that's just completely outside of canon as far as units, weapons, technologies, etc. The module system isn't canon. I understand what your'e saying and I agree to an extent, but you've got to be willing to understand that there's only so much leeway fans of this particular IP are going to give.

Can you imagine how well a star wars RPG style game set in the star wars universe would do if all the Jedi were switched to ninjas and the sith were switched to some alien space samurai? Sure you can play with canon, but there are limits before you're no longer a game set in a specific setting other than in title alone

[CDLord HHGD]

Gallowglas, on 31 July 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

My point is that there's no property that's ever static unless the creator is dead and nobody is allowed to touch their stuff. Canon has been rewritten every single time a TRO, game title, or book was released. The old canon simply adopts the new stuff. Yes, sometimes the creator says "this isn't part of the established canon", and that's fine. However, more often than not it's not defined. Things are ignored or not as the creators see fit. There are ways to handle such things delicately and respectfully without disrupting any love anyone has for established canon. Anyone who is looking forward to CW should realize that they're essentially going to be playing content that's contrary to canon at some level. Heck, the very fact that we may NOT see some mechs violates canon.



So Rogue Squadron isn't canon? Clone Wars? SWTOR? If not, a whole heck of a lot of fans have embraced it regardless and Lucas has certainly given those things his blessing. "Canon" isn't always clearly defined.

Lol, didn't 'ol George make his disdain known during the "concerns" he recieved over the prequels?

And yes, I am saying all that, everything, can be shitcanned.

Edited by cdlord, 31 July 2014 - 11:13 AM.

[Gallowglas]

Sandpit, on 31 July 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

My point is that many of the players here enjoy and love the canon which is why it's an important aspect for this particular IP.

CW doesn't affect canon, it affects our game. Nothing that happens in this game will affect canon in the Btech universe BUT many of us here care about the canon because that's what this game is based on. They've already broken canon and taken some liberties.

There's a big difference in tweaking the timeline a little and adding in stuff that's just completely outside of canon as far as units, weapons, technologies, etc. The module system isn't canon. I understand what your'e saying and I agree to an extent, but you've got to be willing to understand that there's only so much leeway fans of this particular IP are going to give.

Can you imagine how well a star wars RPG style game set in the star wars universe would do if all the Jedi were switched to ninjas and the sith were switched to some alien space samurai? Sure you can play with canon, but there are limits before you're no longer a game set in a specific setting other than in title alone

Nobody's talking about changing anything related to the core story, nor would the addition of any new mechs violate any other canon to any greater extent than would the omission of certain established canon mechs or other combined arms units. If people feel this strongly about the stable of mechs remaining static and unchanging, were you up in arms every time a new TRO was released? Why not? Just because it was FASA?

Edited by Gallowglas, 31 July 2014 - 11:18 AM.

[Sandpit]

Also just to point out that fans and original creators are only willing to go so far?

Ever heard the term squawk warrior? If not, there's a reason for it, if you have and don't know the meaning then that also illustrates my point. I don't think anyone is foolish enough to believe that this game will stick exactly to canon in all forms but at the same time there's absolutely NO reason to "create new" mechs when there are literally thousands to choose from in the canon

[PANZERKAT]

Sandpit, on 31 July 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

They've a;ready specifically stated that


My point is that many of the players here enjoy and love the canon which is why it's an important aspect for this particular IP.

CW doesn't affect canon, it affects our game. Nothing that happens in this game will affect canon in the Btech universe BUT many of us here care about the canon because that's what this game is based on. They've already broken canon and taken some liberties.

There's a big difference in tweaking the timeline a little and adding in stuff that's just completely outside of canon as far as units, weapons, technologies, etc. The module system isn't canon. I understand what your'e saying and I agree to an extent, but you've got to be willing to understand that there's only so much leeway fans of this particular IP are going to give.

Can you imagine how well a star wars RPG style game set in the star wars universe would do if all the Jedi were switched to ninjas and the sith were switched to some alien space samurai? Sure you can play with canon, but there are limits before you're no longer a game set in a specific setting other than in title alone

It isn't important to this IP(incarnation of online mechwarrior), because it won't be enforced AT ALL when we get CW. The only way I could see it having an impact is if mechs available at that time grant currency/XP bonuses over mechs outside of the time line. Penalizing people with a stable of mechs outside the timeline would be a bad way to go, even though it makes sense.

[Sandpit]

Gallowglas, on 31 July 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Nobody's talking about changing anything related to the core story, nor would the addition of any new mechs violate any other canon to any greater extent than would the omission of certain established canon mechs or other combined arms units. If people feel this strongly about the stable of mechs remaining static and unchanging, were you up in arms every time a new TRO was released? Why not? Just because it was FASA?

see above post

There's absolutely no reason to create new mechs when you have a fanbase still clamoring for more of the "original" designs. if they didn't have literally dozens of mechs that players are anxious for, I MIGHT agree, but there's no reason for it and the only thing it would accomplish is alienating and pissing off customers even if it did impress others.

Those others wanting more mechs and that don't care about canon aren't going to care if the new mechs are canon or not. Those not wanting mechs outside of canon DO care. So where would be the sense in implementing something that gains nothing but pisses off customers?

[Gallowglas]

Sandpit, on 31 July 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

there's absolutely NO reason to "create new" mechs when there are literally thousands to choose from in the canon

Oh, there's a reason. You and I may simply disagree on its validity. That's fine, too...to each their own. The reason being that many of the canon mechs were very poorly visually designed. Re-envisionment can make such designs palatable, but I'd sincerely like to see what Alex could do without having to worry about the original designs.

Granted, I'd want to make sure the additions didn't supplant other major and established mechs being released too and I wouldn't want them to get too out of control with how many were released this way.

Edited by Gallowglas, 31 July 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[Sandpit]

Gallowglas, on 31 July 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Oh, there's a reason. You and I may simply disagree on its validity. That's fine, too...to each their own. The reason being that many of the canon mechs were very poorly visually designed. Re-envisionment can make such designs palatable, but I'd sincerely like to see what Alex could do without having to worry about the original designs.

Then use that for the "unseen" mechs. Have you not seen the rage on some of the redesigns? Maybe you missed the clan logo fiascos? Say what you want about the validity but there's a reason PGI switched back to the "original" logos. The fanbase doesn't want "new", they want canon.

[Gallowglas]

Sandpit, on 31 July 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Then use that for the "unseen" mechs. Have you not seen the rage on some of the redesigns? Maybe you missed the clan logo fiascos? Say what you want about the validity but there's a reason PGI switched back to the "original" logos. The fanbase doesn't want "new", they want canon.

They're still going to get "new" anyway. They've already gotten new and they'll continue to get it. They got new every time a TRO or new game was released. Things do have to change to service a game like this. You can't just put a 2D photocopy of the TRO mech in the game.

We may or may not agree on what too much "new" entails, but I'll go on the record as a 44-year-old, original MW/BT fan who isn't going to scream heresy every time some cosmetic item deviates from something we saw in the 80's.

Edited by Gallowglas, 31 July 2014 - 11:32 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Hell no.

Good people have already explained why.

Edited by CyclonerM, 31 July 2014 - 11:37 AM.

[Jody Von Jedi]

xeromynd, on 31 July 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Yes hello If we're making all new mechs I'd like to put a deposit down on an AC20 light mech that goes 160 KPH with 6 tons of ammo. Aka a cannon with legs

Urbie is watching you......

[Viges]

Flash Frame, on 31 July 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

Spoiler

I've heard calls for mechs that are 3080's before... everyone's waiting on something from some point in the timeline.

Hell you know, I don't even mind if they start snagging old Star League desgins, we just need more mechs.

But we need more maps too.

And game modes.

and...and.

oh god this game's never going to shape up is it! WHAT AM I DOING WITH MY LIFE!!!!

T_T

ok...ok I think I have a handle on that... sorry guys, just, sometimes I forget the slow development pace of PGI... and when I remember...

What you don't want a Hollander?



Literally a gauss rifle with legs.

Hollander

Edited by Viges, 31 July 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Sandpit]

Gallowglas, on 31 July 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

They're still going to get "new" anyway. They've already gotten new and they'll continue to get it. They got new every time a TRO or new game was released. Things do have to change to service a game like this. You can't just put a 2D photocopy of the TRO mech in the game.

We may or may not agree on what too much "new" entails, but I'll go on the record as a 44-year-old, original MW/BT fan who isn't going to scream heresy every time some cosmetic item deviates from something we saw in the 80's.

many would though. So again, there's no need or reason for this. The ONLY thing this would do is piss off customers. It's not needed. They can continue putting out canon mechs and have plenty of "new" mech introduced to the game to keep pokemech players happy without pissing off customers who DO enjoy canon and lore.

It's like this

You like star wars
You join a star wars game

That game then deviates from star wars lore to the point where it's not star wars except in title. Replacing light sabers with some sort of ray gun.
Replacing the force with technology

Sure, some would think that's "cool" but those that wanted star wars are going to be pissed and look elsewhere. So the only thing that accomplished was push out customers without adding anything. Making new mechs instead of just implementing the decades worth of mechs out there that Btech players have come to love doesn't add anything, it just pisses off players/customers

The argument of "those old mech designs were poorly designed" is somewhat irrelevant. You can customize mechs here so you're not stuck with a "poor" design. I'm just pointing out that a change like that, when not needed to come up with new mechs to implement in game, is going to do nothing but upset some players. It doesn't being anyone new to the table. There's no player sitting out there thinking "Man! If PGI would just create a brand new mech I'd play it!" but there are players thinking "If PGI does something like this I'm done"

So purely from an impartial business standpoint you can see where it's just a bad idea.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

King Crab and Pillager please

[Blakkstar]

Sandpit, on 31 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

So purely from an impartial business standpoint you can see where it's just a bad idea.

Exactly. Why on earth would PGI bother devoting time and resources to designing new mechs just for the sake of being new? Would you rather their staff be dreaming up new mech artwork, or just using one of the hundreds of proven existing designs already present with the IP and improving the game instead?

I wouldn't really care about a new mech being non-canon, but it would concern me if they start wasting manpower doing pointless things that there is no real demand for.

Edited by Blakkstar, 31 July 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[Gallowglas]

Sandpit, on 31 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

It's like this

You like star wars
You join a star wars game

That game then deviates from star wars lore to the point where it's not star wars except in title. Replacing light sabers with some sort of ray gun.
Replacing the force with technology

The difference is that what I'm discussing isn't subtractive. I'm not talking about replacing anything. I'm not talking about suddenly turning an Urbie into Mr. Snuffleupagus. I'm talking about having a few new mechs alongside the ones already released by FASA. In essence, it would be exactly the same as adding a new TRO, except it would be PGI doing so, not FASA.

Ah well, I suspect I'm not going to get anywhere with this conversation. There are clearly entrenched viewpoints in play. I think it's great that people feel strongly about a property they love, but we have to be careful that a hug doesn't turn into a strangle.

[Sandpit]

Blakkstar, on 31 July 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

Exactly. Why on earth would PGI bother devoting time and resources to designing new mechs just for the sake of being new? Would you rather their staff be dreaming up new mech artwork, or just using one of the hundreds of proven existing designs already present with the IP and improving the game instead?

I wouldn't really care about a new mech being non-canon, but it would concern me if they start wasting manpower doing pointless things that there is no real demand for.

^plus this

[Sandpit]

Gallowglas, on 31 July 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

The difference is that what I'm discussing isn't subtractive. I'm not talking about replacing anything. I'm not talking about suddenly turning an Urbie into Mr. Snuffleupagus. I'm talking about having a few new mechs alongside the ones already released by FASA. In essence, it would be exactly the same as adding a new TRO, except it would be PGI doing so, not FASA.

Ah well, I suspect I'm not going to get anywhere with this conversation. There are clearly entrenched viewpoints in play. I think it's great that people feel strongly about a property they love, but we have to be careful that a hug doesn't turn into a strangle.

that's the thing though, your'e acting like the game is suffering somehow by not introducing new designs. It's not. If it were and that was the only viable option I could see it. What's being suggested is just being suggested simply "because". There's no need or reason for it other than some would think it's "cool" yet those that think it's "cool" aren't going to stop playing just because PGI doesn't make new mechs. Players WILL stop playing if they start deviating in that manner though. That's what I'm pointing out. It's got no upside but a lot of downside. There's no reason or need for it. That's the whole point.

Not introducing new designs hurts nothing because nobody is going to get upset if PGI doesn't introduce their own original designs.
Introducing new designs WOULD hurt the game because there are players who would leave because of it or stop spending money.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

Actully SARNA still not contain all the BT Universe unseen or reseen bettlemechs designs. A few dozens of designs still lost somewhere in BT-U ex-publisher FASA Corp.

Edited by Lala Satalin Deviluke, 31 July 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[Gallowglas]

When did I say it was suffering for a lack of non-canon mechs? All I said is that someday I'd like to see a few of Alex's designs in the game that aren't fettered by the FASA TROs. Don't read more into my words than that.

And if someone seriously hit their breaking point because Alex introduced a new design sometime after most of the core canon mechs have been handled, I might question their mental well-being, particularly if they had the double standard of not raging every time a new TRO got published.

Edited by Gallowglas, 31 July 2014 - 12:37 PM.