19 replies to this topic

[Powerbomb256]

Had this match the other day, did well but still lost in the end. 3x3x3x3 is supposed to balance out teams, so please tell me why we were out-tonned by over 250 tons. Please, either get 3x3x3x3 working or remove it altogether

[Carrie Harder]

Dem relief valves are causing it.

The valves were added to reduce queue times in the 24/7 event of disproportionate weight class usage, but those same valves also undermine the entire purpose of 3x4 in the first place. With the valves, the system becomes nearly pointless because you still get more players in the bigger robots than smaller robots, and without the valves then the queue times go to hell in a handbasket.

This is why I've said it so many times over that PGI shouldn't try to ham-fist force people into using certain mechs/classes. They should give people a real reason to explore other choices than just the fattest robot with the most armor and biggest BFG. The game should be designed such that there are more effective roles than just facerolling over the red team, and those other roles should also receive adequate spacebucks payout. But alas, it was a design pillar that was never meant to be.

Edited by Carrie Harder, 01 September 2014 - 12:37 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

I don't recall seeing too many games that discovered the solution to all their problems during closed beta, then rejected it forever, and started coming up with crappy substitutes.

Oh, Role Warfare...

[ApolloKaras]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 01 September 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

I don't recall seeing too many games that discovered the solution to all their problems during closed beta, then rejected it forever, and started coming up with crappy substitutes.

Oh, Role Warfare...

Role Warfare?

Oh you mean this:

http://mwomercs.com/...-3-role-warfare
http://mwomercs.com/...le-warfare-cont

[A banana in the tailpipe]

3/3/3/3 is annoying but works a lot better than previous incarnations of 1/0/6/5.

My ideal drop would be 4/5/2/1.

Edited by lockwoodx, 01 September 2014 - 12:49 PM.

[stjobe]

Yeah, as Ms. Harder said, the release valves make a mockery of 3-3-3-3. It's funny (in a sad way) that they try so hard but fail so epically in almost everything they've tried since closed beta.

Sometimes I wonder if the current dev team inherited the code from some other, competent team that was really the one that made the game we had in closed beta.

Because that would explain a lot.

Edit: Perhaps that was a bit harsh. A more plausible explanation is that the devs are competent enough but the management isn't. That would explain just as much.

Edited by stjobe, 01 September 2014 - 01:12 PM.

[Voidcrafter]

Saxie, on 01 September 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

Role Warfare?

Oh you mean this:

http://mwomercs.com/...-3-role-warfare
http://mwomercs.com/...le-warfare-cont

Aaah I totally forgot about this...
Such good times, filled with hope for the game to be something anyone, even not BT maniacs, would gladly play, cause it would be a bit innovative, fun, different...
I had different attitude toward the game as general and all shifted from all the things I've observed during the two years named

Anyways -
the MM seems to be unworking as usual for me.
Not that I feel insulted when I drop with a team that has 3 people that can barely aim and/or in the end game I've done more damage and kills than entire two lances...
BUUUT...
that means I gotto take the heavy burden of carrying my team - and still...
Yesterday I've lost a game I had with 1.1k damage and 4(I believe? or was it 5?) kills.
Today... that many funny things happened that I don't even bother to remember em.
I still feel like the matchmaker just goes "OOH THIS GUY CAN DECENTLY SHOOT STAFF!!! Y WE NO DROP IT WITH 6 PEOPLE THAT CAN'T AGAINST 12 THAT CAN?!?"...
This aint right at all.

"BUT THE LONG WAITING TIME!! WE FIX IT NAU!!" - riiight...
So I now spend ~3 mins in the waiting process, instead of 5 or 7, but get into a game , that I don't want to be part of at all, that lasts about 10 minutes with all I named above...
This game could have lesser waiting times if there were more people playing it, if they weren't few different servers but one.
But hey - regional servers means less lag, less desync, less connectivity issues...
If so - I don't see it working.
So here you have it - if there's a backdoor for the matchmaker to NOT enforce the 3/3/3/3 rule that's what he's gonna do - he's gonna use it to shorten the wait times.
Since there aint THAT much people playing the game ---> there you have it again - plenty of backdoors.
Would be better if PGI explain this though - not me - the random forum guy and stuff.

[Chrithu]

I never understood why the 3x4 is better than proper 1 to 1 weight matching + elo or even better battle value (metric for the strength of a particular loadout) + elo.

Like so many stuff that PGI does it always seems like there is an urge to come up with complicated or sometimes obviously not working ideas just to come up and realize ideas that were not brought up by the community, like they'd have to prove a point that game designers are smarter than gamers ...

[Willard Phule]

It's even because a Battlemaster is the same as a Dire Wolf. Duh.

[stjobe]

The closed beta "just get eight people on each side and let's go" matchmaker produced more even matches than the current one.

The open beta "if one side has a light the other one gets one too" matchmaker produced more even matches than the current one.

Both had issues, but at least they produced some funny match-ups (eight lights vs eight assaults isn't as foregone a conclusion as one might think...) instead of these "you've won too much, now you must lose" stomp-fest matches we see today.

And yes, they put absolute newbies in with veterans - but so does the current one.

And yes, the open beta one tended to make anything but top-of-their-weight-class 'mechs less played - but do we really see that many 20-, 40-, 60- or 80-ton 'mechs today?

Elo just doesn't seem to work. I really don't feel that I play with and against players of similar skill as me; either they're way worse (as in, cannot hit a barn from the inside) or they're way better (as in, hits my cockpit from across the map, while jumping, at full speed).

And that's really what I really want from a match-maker: To play with and against players of similar skill; that's when I believe I'll have the best matches. I don't care about keeping my Win/Lose ratio at 1.0, or what my KDR is, I want good, even, tense fighting - and getting stomped or stomping others is so far from that it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Edited by stjobe, 01 September 2014 - 01:31 PM.

[Hoax415]

Now is the time to fix matchmaker as they need to do something about clan mech values in the matchmaker's eyes anyways or nerf clans into oblivion aka until they are even with IS which the vast majority of players dont want.

We need a MM system that looks at tonnage and if a mech is clan or IS at the minimum and since minimum is PGI's motto that's the best we can realistically hope for.

In some kind of alternate universe where this game was developed by somebody else we might expect for a more nuanced approach than each team gets X tons. Clan mechs are worth +X% tons.

Maybe the MM could pay attention to if a mech is basic, elite or mastered?

That's probably asking too much and considering how small the playerbase is now maybe we don't need anything beyond tonnage with the TBR being worth a 90t IS mech.

The other bonus would be that this might fix group queue. Say the tonnage limit is 660t per team. Which means 220t per lance. What if you couldn't launch with lances in group queue that weighed more than that? No more 3 whale lances or 2 whale 2 madcat lances for maximum win buttons.

A man can dream...

[Felicitatem Parco]

stjobe, on 01 September 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

The closed beta "just get eight people on each side and let's go" matchmaker produced more even matches than the current one.

You mean back when the game didn't consist of multi-year seasoned players competing on the same field as brand-new players?

Yeah, I can see why that would result in even matches - There was no experience gap.

[stjobe]

Prosperity Park, on 01 September 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

You mean back when the game didn't consist of multi-year seasoned players competing on the same field as brand-new players?

Yeah, I can see why that would result in even matches - There was no experience gap.

If the game was complicated enough to need multiple years to be good at you might have had a point; as it is, you don't.

[Johnny Z]

I have become convinced the only way to have a totally fair and even drop, including all weight classes is to make a 1/1/1/1 drop ship for each player. One of each weight class loaded into the players drop ship. They then can choose which mech to take out first and so on until no mechs are left.

This would be called "Dropship mode" not a new idea but it seems to answer alot of the problems with having all weight classes in a match.

Having all weight classes in a battle like this would improve the game for all players, those that like assaults or those that like lights. The only questions are would players like the longer matches etc.

A way to improve the 3/3/3/3 numbers is to add repair and/or rearm. Something I hope they add back in some form anyway.

Edited by Johnny Z, 01 September 2014 - 02:34 PM.

[stjobe]

Johnny Z, on 01 September 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

"Dropship mode"

It would only result in unending threads about how unfair it is that you can't load four assaults on your dropship "because I only play assaults".

In other words, it'd be the same old song and dance.

Edit: The only way to get even numbers of weight classes on the field is for PGI to make all weight classes equally viable (a.k.a. Role Warfare); sadly they screwed the pooch on that one when they decided "assaults are end-game content" and when they decided to price 'mechs in MC by tonnage.

Just another two in the long line of bad decisions.

Edited by stjobe, 01 September 2014 - 02:40 PM.

[Johnny Z]

stjobe, on 01 September 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

If the game was complicated enough to need multiple years to be good at you might have had a point; as it is, you don't.

Wrong this has a very deep combat system. Name a game with a deeper combat system to prove your point if you are right.

Also I started using medieval total war II as a comparison to what the faction wars could be like, but i find many similarities to the tactical side as well. No kidding. And i dont even think they meant it to be that deep on purpose is the funny part.

Edited by Johnny Z, 01 September 2014 - 02:42 PM.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Powerbomb256, on 01 September 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

Had this match the other day, did well but still lost in the end. 3x3x3x3 is supposed to balance out teams, so please tell me why we were out-tonned by over 250 tons. Please, either get 3x3x3x3 working or remove it altogether

In my experience severe differences in tonnage are MUCH less common now.

I remember that one of the first things I used to do in a match was look at the number of assault/heavy mechs on my team and based on that number I could usually judge how hard the match was gonna be.

One or no assaults mean a hard match to carry. Two to 4 was most common. Six or more assault mechs and you were likely to win.

It's been a long time since I've had to do that. OFC tonnage differences happen, they will always happen to some degree, it just that now they seem much less common.

[Xmith]

Powerbomb256, on 01 September 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

Had this match the other day, did well but still lost in the end. 3x3x3x3 is supposed to balance out teams, so please tell me why we were out-tonned by over 250 tons. Please, either get 3x3x3x3 working or remove it altogether

I don't see a problem here. The match ended close when you actually look at the final score.

I might understand the crying if the match ended 12-0.

This a classic example of not pointing out the obvious. A faily good close match.

Instead you prefer to complain about something that is unavoidable.

The average weight difference per battlemech is only 21 tons. Not that big of a deal.

[Kiiyor]

lockwoodx, on 01 September 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

3/3/3/3 is annoying but works a lot better than previous incarnations of 1/0/6/5.

My ideal drop would be 4/5/2/1.

I too would love this, but the 2216321 people crammed into the x/x/2/x queue would have to wait a LOOOOOONG time for the 5 total light players to get to them

[El Bandito]

Powerbomb256, on 01 September 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

Had this match the other day, did well but still lost in the end. 3x3x3x3 is supposed to balance out teams, so please tell me why we were out-tonned by over 250 tons. Please, either get 3x3x3x3 working or remove it altogether

I find your team's lack of Clan mechs...disturbing.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 September 2014 - 08:15 PM.