175 replies to this topic

[EvilCow]

Russ, trest assured that things like: HSR, lobbies, rejoin, new mechlab, increased communication efforts, have been noted and appreciated by many. CW is the last pillar and it is being completed.

The current problem originated when clan tech was first introduced, sadly you can't win there, many believe clan tech should be superior other want it to be balanced with IS. Nerfs are never well received so you get a lot of criticism regardless how good are the changes you implement.

I would let clan retain some technical superiority and balance forces in the global CW game.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Yes it takes time I agree. For some the past 9 months might mean a lot. For you I guess not and that is 100% your prerogative.

We will continue working hard.

Everyone who likes stompy robots would like to see that mwo becomes a success but even 2014 you are mentioning wasnt that great to gain insta trust back.

Letme summarize what happened in 2014 so far from my point of view:

--Ui has been added after 2-3 Months delay. Its a clickfest- very unintuitive and most of the ppl are not happy with it.

--Dx11 has been added but its actually just a box which you can unclick or click in the menu. It doesnt improves the graphics, nor does it optimize the game performance.

--Privat matches have been enabled- guess thats a progress

-- Clan mechs have been added- we are actually used that Mwo releases mechs and mechs. Didnt suprize me it went good but the prices were just insane.

--Cw has been added- but sadly its just a dummy, no function besides unit creation.

Wheres the content which was supposed to regain trust from all the dissapointed ppl?



Maps?
Game Mode?
Smufy MEchlab funktion?
C3?
Grapfic improvements?
performance optimization?
Fix of the desync issue?

I could go on.


http://mwomercs.com/.../page__st__1060

I guess for the most the last 9 Months didnt mean alot

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

Your probably right. In the morning Niko probably will do just that.

This wont help to gain trust back. There are obviously reasons why ppl remain to be pessimistic when it comes to MWo. A comprehension for all the pessimism towards Mwo would be nice instead.

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 11 September 2014 - 09:46 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Actually a lot of frustration comes from the balancing policy, that is true. Mainly two problems and I think most agree:

1. Too many parameters are simulateously changed, by too much. There is no tuning....
2. Clan balance. Nerfing weaps is fine to some extent, but the problem is not necessarily in the clan weapons, more in the chassi themselves, i.e. some have endo/ff, a suitable engine size and no wasted slots. That makes the TW and SC overpowered, and the SMN and ADR underwhelming. You cant balance that by nerfing the weapons, you'll need to make better use of Quirks, and/or add new omnipods for the underwhelming mechs!

You can't listen to all the community on this for sure, but there has been a few very reflected posts on the forum and if you play the game its obvious to spot them. Listen to these guys, or form a community council or whatever and listen to them.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 10 September 2014 - 12:10 AM.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

@Russ: Thx to bee here. I realy wish this game all the best. I returned from WH40.000 to the Batteltech universe, because of this game. I hope you are not loosing too much money due to the problem that paysafe is not possibel. I m not using any Credit Cards in the Internet....I start to think about a prepaid Credit Card for MWO...that would mean 10Euro into the garbage wich could bee another Hero...

It realy took long now with CW, but for shure I m still supporting the game as the most of my Clan.

[Sam Slade]

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Yes it takes time I agree. For some the past 9 months might mean a lot. For you I guess not and that is 100% your prerogative.

We will continue working hard.

We've been waiting a damned sight longer then nine months for the Pillars of Trust that prompted so many to wait with baited breath for Founders packs to go on sale.

If you want to rebuild trust take good hard look at the processes you have in place modify them and start to produce some solid simple content based on suggestions the community has been crying for since closed beta. That will win
you some trust, everything else will just be smoke and mirrors

Edited by Sam Slade, 10 September 2014 - 12:27 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

Well this wasn't very uplifting.
I appreciate the OP and his point of view, always nice to have support. Of course it's hard to hear people that don't seem to want to accept anything good but only focus on items of 1-2 years ago.

I accept all the good stuff that's happened. It's the reason I'm still playing and it's the reason I'm still a paying customer. After 2 years, I'm still playing, still paying.

I just don't accept the idea that some players are "toxic" because they were born evil, or because they're fundamentally bad people. I believe that Mechwarrior gamers are just as nice people as any other gamers. For some companies, the community are viewed as a resource. OP portrays the community as the problem. As a player, it would have been uplifting to see you contradict him in this respect, but I guess you didn't have time to go into it. It's cool, don't worry about it.

I wish you all the best in future development of this game. Hopefully, I'll still be a playing and paying customer in 2015 as well.

[Dark DeLaurel]

I really am trying to not be negative but it is so hard when there are quotes out there that have you saying content will take a back seat to things like maps and game modes it is hard man, it is really hard.

[El Bandito]

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Yes it takes time I agree. For some the past 9 months might mean a lot. For you I guess not and that is 100% your prerogative.

We will continue working hard.

I am going to hold this comment as hostage until 2015. CW part 2 better be there at the start of new year, as promised.

[EvilCow]

El Bandito, on 10 September 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

I am going to hold this comment as hostage until 2015. CW part 2 better be there at the start of new year, as promised.

No, it is better to be *really* good. One of the problems here are half baked solutions.

Edited by EvilCow, 10 September 2014 - 12:30 AM.

[FlipOver]

Thizcrusher, on 09 September 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

What I want you to understand (which was really the whole point of the post) is that in a free to play model certain things have to take priority i.e. revenue. Just maybe by giving us some of the things we wanted and asked for, other things that we wanted were delayed as a result. How long ? We don't know. We wanted more maps... how long did that take to work on? For all we know without releasing the clan invasion before CW PGI would have went bottoms up. How long was CW delayed because of clan warfare. We really don't know a whole lot about any of it.. all we know is that we want our cake and we want it now.

Excuse me for a second and try seeing things on a different perspective for a change.
REVENUE - Will decrease if the wrong steps are taken during game development (or any other company for that matter).
Will increase if the right steps are taken ...

Maybe PGI could listen to the Comunity in the forums more than on twitter or other non-official places.

As an example, if PGI had dedicated the development of actual features instead of cockpit fluff, by now those hours spent on those projects would probably mean much more revenue from their clients.

How else would they expect to make money you ask... well, it's not like there isn't Premium Time to be bought or Hero/Champion mechs being developed.

I'm not going to talk about the way ECM was implemented, or 3rd PV or Ghost Heat or nerfs to weapons and mechs. That's too much to cover just to let you know that if the revenue is their main worry, then they should of focused on developing real features and less fluff. They would be showered with money from the Community by now.

[FlipOver]

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

Well this wasn't very uplifting.

I appreciate the OP and his point of view, always nice to have support. Of course it's hard to hear people that don't seem to want to accept anything good but only focus on items of 1-2 years ago.
[snip]

Mr. Bullock, you do have support. All the people on the island still support you. Think about it.

Now, the day those people go for a swim, well, then that story might change.

Edit - On a personal note and perspective, to me MW:O could out-shine Star Citizen. It has that much potential.
I've said this time and time again. What saddens me is to see more effort going into fluff than actual content (by this I mean any effort applied to cockpit items - for example - is too much effort not going into actual content).

Edited by FlipOver, 10 September 2014 - 03:15 AM.

[Mawai]

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

Well this wasn't very uplifting.

I appreciate the OP and his point of view, always nice to have support. Of course it's hard to hear people that don't seem to want to accept anything good but only focus on items of 1-2 years ago.

But...

For me I feel like were starting fresh now. I hope everyone listened to the town hall and we can admit that 2014 was significantly different in many ways and that we are close to delivering that final of the 4 pillars.

That final pillar, its getting close and then I hope that once that happens the tone can change to at the very least "that took too long but we have everything they promised, now lets all get along and try to keep making this game better".

Silly me I know, but I am an optimist when it comes to people. Anyhow I look forward to sharing more about CW with you in the near future.

In my opinion this is the type of communication that has been sorely lacking. I am glad to see Russ respond to this thread and stand up for the game in general.

Unfortunately when I tried to like the post I received an error message:

---

An error occurred


There was a problem storing your reputation vote.

---

Hopefully someone can sort that out ...

[TopDawg]

Thizcrusher, on 09 September 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

The real problem with PGI isn't being slow to deliver content, their management of funds, or their business decisions... the REAL problem here is all of US the community.

You complain because they don't deliver content fast enough for you. How much time and money (yes time is money, wages are one of your highest operating costs in any business) have they had to spend to make changes that people in these forums have complained, whined, and QQ'd for. One of PGI's biggest mistakes is that they pay TOO much attention to their community and we end up with them trying to appease the vocal minority while the silent majority are left scratching their heads.

You complain about the order in which they release content. I want community warfare, no wait I want maps, no wait I want clans, no wait i want community warfare. We as the collective gaming community have rejected the traditional model of subscription based games, we want free to play. Well guess what? Free to play isn't free. It's going to cost somewhere. You know what PGI has to do before they work on implementing community warfare? They have to BRING IN REVENUE, and that may come in the form of a big clan release in order to get you to *gasp* spend real money on buying clan packs. How in the world can anyone play a free to play game and complain about pay to win. You do realise that if these guys don't come up with a way to separate you from your cash then there will not be a game to play right? You think developers and artists and servers are free.

What PGI does with their money is none of your damn business. You aren't congress, you aren't the President and you certainly aren't an invester. You pay them for a service.. I for one am happy to have this game. It's lots of fun and very well done. Every game has it's share of bugs and glitches. Less QQ and more *pewpew* If you don't like it, don't play it. I know this will more than likely be flamed to hell but I had to give my 2 cents.

Honestly I'm not sure where to begin, but here we go:

This is pretty wrong on quite a few levels. Ignoring the fact that blanket statements never do anything but misrepresent people and (more than likely) catch the ire of those being generalized, I don't disagree that there are some people who go out of their way to 'watch the world burn', as it were. But there are many people who simply voice their dissent, in articulate (if not constructive) ways and are still moderated and/or banned for it.

Of course PGI is under no obligation to listen to community feedback, and the merits of such a system can certainly be up for debate. But the fact remains that if you don't listen to your community, and then moderate them/ban them for leaving feedback on implementations and features that are of objectively poor quality, that seems questionable at best (and just plain self-defeating/self-destructive at worst).

It's interesting that you should mention Community Warfare, as it has been sold and marketed for the past 2+ years (60-90 days after Open Beta, early 2013, late 2013, fall 2014, etc). Of course a company has to make enough revenue in order to 'keep the lights on' (server cost, building cost, worker cost, etc, etc etc); that should go without say and I'm not entirely sure why you bring it up as a counterpoint to producing content like maps or CW. There's an obvious point to be made though, which PGI itself has commented on a few times (and most recently about the new player experience), that being that things of that nature are hard to monetize.

Sure, there are things that are directly monetizable ('Mechs, for instance) and it makes some sense to do it that way (price points can be questionable, but it's very similar to a move theater concession stand and what angle you're tackling it from). But there are also intangible things that will lead to more overall money in the end. Things like the new user experience, like Community Warfare, like having happy customers that want to give you money in order to show support.

Granted, not everyone is like this, but with such an established IP as BattleTech, they're out there. Not to mention this is the only game in town, if you make something people are happy with, they will not only give you money, but shout from the rooftops how awesome your game is, trying to get other people to play it and also support it. Personally speaking I don't like the F2P system, as it doesn't really seem to work very well for anything that isn't a MOBA and tends to make balance a direct tension of profit (but I digress).

And @Russ since you posted in this thread a few times: I'm going to try to word this in the least offensive way I can, but if you're really interested in trying to regain trust, you might do well to read this (and other posts like it).

As a business, you have done some ethically questionable things; what some might refer to (and have referred to) as borderline fraudulent. That's not something you can just sweep under the rug, especially with a pitch that's pretty much been like every other pitch, sans IGP now.

A lot of the 'hate' (for lack of a better term) directed at you (as a company) is founded in quite discernible examples. Without really going into them, it's important to at least acknowledge that people have a reason for what they're doing and the way they feel. It doesn't necessarily help 'the process' of 'trying to get back on track', I agree, but we've passed that point of divergence ages ago now.

There were a lot of design promises in the beginning, both in dev blogs and once you were underway in alpha/closed beta, that were simply never delivered on or shied away from. I remember a particular quote (unfortunately I don't have a source) where it was said that you were going to avoid the arms race (meaning that you didn't want a progression from light to assault - which happened anyway, especially with the pricing system).

For whatever reason I don't have access to my old posts (actually I wonder if I lost them when GC was removed), but if you still do (as it kept my post count), I encourage you to read my warnings about Hero Mechs and actually implementing roles (via the Role Warfare pillar - but the original plan/writeup from the website was deleted, but since I was so excited for this game back then, I still have a copy here).

It's probably too late for me now, personally speaking, as my group has moved on from this game and are gearing up for other ones. In terms of 'fixing the game' though, there's already mountains of feedback on the particulars, but I'll broadly address what I think could really start to turn the game around (and in no particular order except balance, since that's the most important thing): Balance, roles, map variety, a meaningful Community Warfare, new user experience and the 'bar of entry' (so to speak, what it takes to get to the competitive level, how separated those things are, etc).

Speaking of, actually I'll elaborate a little more on balance and roles. Balancing isn't easy, it's going to be hard and difficult. If it was easy, every game ever made would be perfectly balanced. A little backdrop perhaps, these are certainly worth a read: Balancing Multiplayer Games, Part 1: Definitions, Part 2: Viable Options, Part 3: Fairness, and Part 4: Intuition.

I still think, as did many people in closed beta, that sized hardpoints are the way to go. Unfortunately it seems too late for this now, so instead we're left searching for other options. Ghost heat is just a complicated mess of a system that's only real goal was to stop boating (which it did, I guess, at great expense to a lot of other things though), and I agree, boating is a problem (one that would have easily been solved by sized hardpoints, but again I digress). Then this of course left the Gauss/PPC Sniper Poptart meta in for like a year (via the above articles, I think it's easy to see why this was bad).

Balance goes deeper than just weapon balance though. Currently there is a 3 variant system in order to progress past the basic pilot skills, and while not inherently bad (and although the mocked up skill trees shown all those years ago tying into roles would have been innumerably better), it ends up being just the worst because pretty much every Mech released only has one viable variant worth using (assuming it even has one to begin with - mostly looking at you, Medium Mechs). Mech quirks aren't entirely a bad idea either, but almost seem harder to do than sized hardpoints. Something like the Awesomes being capable of using 3 PPCs without turning into a furnace would be an example where quirks highlight the effectiveness of a Mech, giving it a niche or role; a reason to take it into combat over others, depending on the style you want (not what you're forced into because it's the only thing worth taking).

Not to mention, that when all Mechs are more or less capable of doing the same thing (dependent on which energy, ballistic, or missile hardpoint setup they have, and of course jump jets for the above mentioned poptart sniper meta), people are going to only take whichever one works best, and that's it; that obsoletes everything else. As per the articles, again it's easy to see why this is undesirable.

Of course as I said though, there are mountains of this kind of feedback already present that's largely been ignored, discarded, and even told to stop in some cases. If for no other reason than I wish there to some day be a MechCommander 3, I wish you the best and maybe you can turn it around, get your stuff together, and win over/regain that trust. This new gestapo style moderation isn't the best place to start, though.

[Appogee]

I want to believe. Really, I do.

Like I did the last time we were promised things would be different.

And the time before.

And yet, here we still are, no new maps all year, no new game modes, UI2.0 is still a mess, desyncing is worse, my ping went up 20% two weeks ago and weapon balance has been devolved into a spreadsheet editing exercise.

And despite all of that, and despite the persistent bugs and drill rigs that don't extend through floors and AMS that shoots through cave roofs, you're declaring MWO a "mature product" and now focused on crowd-funding a whole new game and creating a whole new bunch of Mech skins.

History isn't repeating, no. Because PGI's behavior never really changed in the first place.

I want to believe. Really, I do.

Give me a reason to.

Edited by Appogee, 10 September 2014 - 06:01 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Complete garbage.... The fan base has little impact on the day to day workings of PGI.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

FlipOver, on 10 September 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

Mr. Bullock, you do have support. All the people on the island still support you. Think about it.

Now, the day those people go for a swim, well, then that story might change.

Edit - On a personal note and perspective, to me MW:O could out-shine Star Citizen. It has that much potential.
I've said this time and time again. What saddens me is to see more effort going into fluff than actual content (by this I mean any effort applied to cockpit items - for example - is too much effort not going into actual content).

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

Well this wasn't very uplifting.

That final pillar, its getting close and then I hope that once that happens the tone can change to at the very least "that took too long but we have everything they promised, now lets all get along and try to keep making this game better".

Silly me I know, but I am an optimist when it comes to people. Anyhow I look forward to sharing more about CW with you in the near future.

"MW:O could out-shine Star Citizen. It has that much potential."
This is truth. I loved Wing Commander. Guess what I love more? A lot more? Jumpjets. And the mechs they're attached to. RSI has the sparkle and the shine, but BattleTech/MechWarrior has the grit and the grime and the love of millions. I would get forwarded emails of the Mechwarrior 5 trailer from so many friends. Some of whom have tried this game and left it. People are willing to carry this game, but you have to provide us with a reason to love MWO. I don't mean just do a good job and work hard, but realize you've got a friggin dynasty here, generations of fans, rabid fans, passionate fans, of all economic and social backgrounds who love blowing **** up with giant mechs.


Russ:
We're telling you what would make us happy. At one point we were begging you. Arena combat is nice, but we need more than that. We need more than Arena Combat plus. We want a game with live battle, real potential for tactical warfare, with command overview, tactical obstacles (Like AI controlled, commander launced deployables. Tanks, infantry to guard objectives, Aerospace strikes, etc) We need more than big stompy robots shooting each other till everything is dead. That's only a quarter of the game, when you think about it. Positioning, force management, superior tactics, all of that has been reduced down to "ok they're over here, you guys stand in that corridor and shoot that way, we'll stand in this corridor and shoot this way". That might be good for co-op or PvE, but we want the space and the ability to do more. Let us decide where the capture point will be. Let the other team search for it and find that it's sitting on top of Hamburger hill behind a mini-garrison and a crucible of waiting mechs. We want this game to be the biggest out there, and we want to help make it so. But we can't do it alone, and you can't do it alone either, (no offense).

So if this is going to be a new start, please stop thinking along the terms of "package delivered" and understand that this is an ongoing relationship. We want to contribute, we want to support you guys, monetarily even. But I'm not in it to collect and paint digital miniatures. I want futuristic warfare in another world. A world that you at PGI can create and fill in, and we can inhabit and make successful. See the vast potential, and please take advantage of it.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 10 September 2014 - 06:26 AM.

[Napoleon_Blownapart]

this post has the exact opposite effect of what it is trying to point out.

i watched 80-90% of the townhall video and was happy with it.this post just makes me want to list all the times pgi went wrong, but i wont.we are making a fresh start where pgi is soley responsible for MWO successes and failures.

imagine the rage if this weeks controversy hadnt happened and then they announced a clan reinforcement package for sale.....

[Garandos]

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

Well this wasn't very uplifting.

I appreciate the OP and his point of view, always nice to have support. Of course it's hard to hear people that don't seem to want to accept anything good but only focus on items of 1-2 years ago.

But...

For me I feel like were starting fresh now. I hope everyone listened to the town hall and we can admit that 2014 was significantly different in many ways and that we are close to delivering that final of the 4 pillars.

That final pillar, its getting close and then I hope that once that happens the tone can change to at the very least "that took too long but we have everything they promised, now lets all get along and try to keep making this game better".

Silly me I know, but I am an optimist when it comes to people. Anyhow I look forward to sharing more about CW with you in the near future.

Yeah we DID listen to the townhall, we ESPECIALLY listened to the part that said:

Founders,
Phoenix owners,
ALL of you guys spending CRAPTONS of money over the YEARS without US delivering ANYTHING we promised,

you are NOT loyal customers!

we DID listen to THAT.

that aside, i STILL sit on a pricy ton of TROUBLE because of one of YOUR payment providers YOU decided to work with, and NOBODY gives a DAMN about it.

Bah why waste my time, Russ, you are just a self righteous morron at this point in time, YEAH GIVE ME THA BANN FINGER if you feel like it.

*nobody* be it press, industrie and for the most part, your LONG TERM CUSTOMERS, does take you seriously anymore.

Its allways the shame **** with you guys "Lets FORGET the past!"
"Oh those ebil ebil guys we can not name DEMANDEN 3rd person view! We POOR POOR guys at PGI were FORCED to include it!"

And
so
much
more.

And now, where OBVIOUSLY someone is JUST licking your ass, you take side with HIM and again AGAINST all of YOUR customers?

Lets hope you get a grip on reality ONE day.

Edited by Garandos, 10 September 2014 - 06:41 AM.

[Torgun]

Gorantir, on 10 September 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

this post has the exact opposite effect of what it is trying to point out.

i watched 80-90% of the townhall video and was happy with it.this post just makes me want to list all the times pgi went wrong, but i wont.we are making a fresh start where pgi is soley responsible for MWO successes and failures.

imagine the rage if this weeks controversy hadnt happened and then they announced a clan reinforcement package for sale.....

Yeah and PGI is now fully in control and making all the decisions. So it's a change in the air, no more forced business model from IGP like releasing just more mech packs before other more important things are developed and focused on first! So the first thing that PGI does when they're fully in control is....... another mech pack? WTF??!!

Edited by Torgun, 10 September 2014 - 06:51 AM.

[Mechanized Banana]

Thizcrusher, on 09 September 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Trying to appease the vocal minority while the silent majority are left scratching their heads.

I'll just leave this fancy saying here: It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They'll rarely object to what you put in their mouth.