81 replies to this topic

[DasaDevil]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 September 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

ah the alpha vs dps measurement

From my point of view, I prefer the IS Ballistics mostly because I can use them as a "primary" source of damage. They are my go-to weapons for the most part, while everything else backs them up, be it SRM's or Lasers.

With the Clan autocannons, unless its an LBX and I'm in their face, they are more or less a secondary source of damage to me, over my lasers or SRMs. I MUCH prefer ballistics, but the design of the clan autocannons kind of shoehorns me into using lasers for the most part, before I can get close enough to effectively employ them accurately enough to do get effective damage on a target. And only if I'm not the one being focused / shot at. ( Edit: And at that point I might as well use SRM's, they're far better than using UAC's to begin with. )

It's two different playstyles, of course, but I would very much prefer to rely on autocannons over lasers for damage, but it just isn't happening in a clan mech.

Edited by DasaDevil, 16 September 2014 - 02:42 PM.

[Chemie]

OP clearly has never run into an OPFOR with 3 direwolfs and 3 timberwolfs while his team had all IS. Good luck with that

(ie. yes, come clan mechs are UP but the assault/heaviy listed above dominate)

[Mawai]

Lefty Lucy, on 16 September 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Russ, without asymmetrical matchmaking for CW, a side-torso destruction penalty will not be enough without nerfing clan weapons to the point where they are simply flat-out worse than IS counter parts, and at that point you'll be seeing only the best of each weight class on the Clan side in any match where people are trying to win.

We need to look at retaining Elo for non-CW games, but asymmetrical balancing for faction-locked CW matches.

I think Russ suggested the possibility of using the quirk system to buff IS mechs on a 1 by 1 basis rather than nerfing clan weapons further. Personally, I am willing to wait and see what they come up with ... however, if folks have suggestions then I would definitely make them since there is a real possibility that they might be actually listening this time around.

[Scratx]

Mawai, on 16 September 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

I think Russ suggested the possibility of using the quirk system to buff IS mechs on a 1 by 1 basis rather than nerfing clan weapons further. Personally, I am willing to wait and see what they come up with ... however, if folks have suggestions then I would definitely make them since there is a real possibility that they might be actually listening this time around.

He did suggest that, and I think it's a mighty fine idea for several reasons... not only does that help give IS mechs parity with Clan mechs without wholesale nerfing Clans, but it also gives the opportunity to tune up underrated or just plain bad chassis to be much more competitive, while retaining their own distinctiveness from the other mechs.

[Zordicron]

I didnt read the whole thread, but want to comment on the XL side torso stuff:

IMO, losing 50% of the weapon loadout is pretty harsh already on many of the clan mechs. NOT THAT SOME ARENT A LITTLE OVER THE TOP ANYWAY.

Therefore, I would like to see the XL/ST destruction issues resolved using the quirk system. THIS SHOULD BE LOOKED AT ON A CHASSIS BASIS. Making some massive blanket change for all clan mechs will not help balance them, it will widen the gap between some of the performance on chassis to chassis. IE, applying a penalty to somthing that is seen as slightly sub par like a summoner compared to somthing seen somewhat OP like a timberwolf is not really a good call.

The quirk system is a brilliant tool to shape/tweak chassis to chassis oddities. So far it has worked on some of them, I can honestly say the Awesome is improved and better then it has ever been(even if it could use one more pass at hitbox adjustments- shoulders) so the system works. TBR seen as too potent after a ST destruction? KK, add something to the TBR. Leave the poor Adder that lost 50% of its already tricky weapon systems out of this balance pass.

[Scratx]

Eldagore, on 16 September 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

I didnt read the whole thread, but want to comment on the XL side torso stuff:

IMO, losing 50% of the weapon loadout is pretty harsh already on many of the clan mechs. NOT THAT SOME ARENT A LITTLE OVER THE TOP ANYWAY.

Therefore, I would like to see the XL/ST destruction issues resolved using the quirk system. THIS SHOULD BE LOOKED AT ON A CHASSIS BASIS. Making some massive blanket change for all clan mechs will not help balance them, it will widen the gap between some of the performance on chassis to chassis. IE, applying a penalty to somthing that is seen as slightly sub par like a summoner compared to somthing seen somewhat OP like a timberwolf is not really a good call.

The quirk system is a brilliant tool to shape/tweak chassis to chassis oddities. So far it has worked on some of them, I can honestly say the Awesome is improved and better then it has ever been(even if it could use one more pass at hitbox adjustments- shoulders) so the system works. TBR seen as too potent after a ST destruction? KK, add something to the TBR. Leave the poor Adder that lost 50% of its already tricky weapon systems out of this balance pass.

Quirking the mechs further is independent of the XL engine issues. And, for perspective, IS mechs with XL die when they lose a side torso. Complaining that losing half your guns is bad enough a penalty when an IS mech in the same position would be dead is a little disingenious.

And if we look at TT, the source material supports the notion of further penalties on loss of a side torso, too.

[THumper9669]

A great example of a NERFed clan mech, Clan ER Larges do next to nothing on a IS light any more but the MG and AC 5 from that light can take down an assault in under a minute. The Clans are nerfed big time and they need to be corrected. I dont expert a one hit kill with clan ER larges but I am getting tried of hitting same light 6 times and it not dropping (same locations no less)

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

THumper9669, on 16 September 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

Clan ER Larges do next to nothing on a IS light any more

you can put clan ER on IS light?

[THumper9669]

Was on an assault not the IS light. Use to be able to rake the lights legs about 3 times and they lose a leg now you can do 6 rakes and it doesnt do any thing.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

THumper9669, on 16 September 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Was on an assault not the IS light. Use to be able to rake the lights legs about 3 times and they lose a leg now you can do 6 rakes and it doesnt do any thing.

Ill have to try that, I used to get good damage near to 2k meters out with the mk 7 tc

[Orkdung]

Bring 'em back to original specs and make their formation a star. All problems solved. The perfect fight.

Place hold 2 spots as positive numbers, so for tying and win/loss Clans get the +2 (or up to 12) for figuring out victories.
Yes, this could give clans potential for overbalance of win/loss, but then, the clans did run wild for ahwile. This would represent fear/confusion in the Inner Sphere.

.

[Mcgral18]

THumper9669, on 16 September 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

A great example of a NERFed clan mech, Clan ER Larges do next to nothing on a IS light any more but the MG and AC 5 from that light can take down an assault in under a minute. The Clans are nerfed big time and they need to be corrected. I dont expert a one hit kill with clan ER larges but I am getting tried of hitting same light 6 times and it not dropping (same locations no less)

A few things; the cERLLs do more damage than TT. They have nearly identical range; 740M instead of 750M.

As for raking damage; try not to do that. There's a reason you aren't dealing much damage when doing that. Lasers deal their damage over the duration of the beam, which means you have to stay on target for the whole duration to deal that damage.

[IceSerpent]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

Well this isn't necessarily true. The only thing that I think nearly every person supports is the notion of some penalty for a destroyed LT or RT.

This would be a tricky one, because Clans can't swap engines (so they are stuck with XL) while IS can choose between XL and STD.

[Johnny Z]

I have given the clan XL engine alot of serious thought as my time in an IS mech fighting them has passed.

I dont think clan mechs shuld go boom for sure on side torso loss like the IS XL engine does. Although that sounds fair it doesnt quite do the OP clans justice.

Instead, the clan XL would only have a 95% the side torso destroying the engine and mech, with a 90% chance the engine goes critical causing a small thermal nuclear explosion, doing 100-300 damage to nearby mechs. The chain reaction would be GLORIOUS!

Edited by Johnny Z, 16 September 2014 - 05:19 PM.

[THumper9669]

Mcgral18, on 16 September 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

A few things; the cERLLs do more damage than TT. They have nearly identical range; 740M instead of 750M.

Then you havent heard they are nerfing the range to 600 m

[Mcgral18]

THumper9669, on 16 September 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

Then you havent heard they are nerfing the range to 600 m

You need to post sources with that kind of information...because the IS ERLL is currently at 690M, up from 570M.

[Scratx]

THumper9669, on 16 September 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

Then you havent heard they are nerfing the range to 600 m

Trolling?

[Murphy7]

Gyrok, on 16 September 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

Numbers balancing is ENTIRELY possible, in fact, I have offered bits and pieces of such a plan that would solve the problem with 10 vs 12.

Please do not speak as though you are the voice of the masses, many of us want 10 vs 12 balance and the clan mechs the way they are supposed to be...(within reason).

As it sits, Clans are considerably hotter, without capability to dissipate heat to the level they have been increased. Clans also have locked internals, fixed engines, and many other quirks that limit them greatly beyond what most people who have never piloted one could understand without first hand seat time experience.

I propose that no more nerfs occur to clan mechs until they are ALL out for cbills, and I would even propose some of the heat increases being rolled back, namely the CERML and CERLL. I understand the range decreases, and I can live with that, but there are some builds that are just stupid hot. Look at the heat efficiency on the stock nova prime...it is below 1. Not just a little bit either...IIRC, it is sub 0.9 heat efficiency...seriously...

Point 1 - It has been stated previously that currently the CW will be locked into 12 v 12, with the current system for building matches. Certainly that can change, when and if coding gets around to it. But currently if CW opens up soon, we will be seeing 12 v 12. Thanks for the condescension though, it was appreciated.

Point 2 - How speaking for yourself rather than setting up straw men as me?

Point 3 - Clan weapons are hotter, and also do more damage in their alpha, so their heat per damage is in scale with IS, their single strikes are not, they can fit more double heat sinks thanks to their crit space, and since with convergence as it is the larger alpha is still a significant, strong advantage at any range.

Point 4 - Nova was able shut itself down in one turn on table top - 60 heat in weaponry, 28 dissipation, well played FASA.

[Zoid]

Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems to me that clan 'mechs aren't an issue, except for the Timberwolf. Every close game I see there is at least one Timberwolf still alive with most of his guns and just refusing to die. I also kept track for about 30 games and without exception, the team that had fewer Timberwolves never won. You can argue that TBR pilots are just better, but then you'd have to argue that 30-40% of the playerbase is just better than everyone else (heavy queue at 50%, most of the TBR), which doesn't really make sense.

The majority of people playing online games since the beginning of ever want to WIN. The simple fact that the heavy queue is usually around 50% and most of that is the TBR should tell you something. They just bring too much to the table in a single 'mech.

[Aym]

Remove the damage reduction from destroyed components for Clan Mechs. Would that be an appropriate XL engine solution?