75 replies to this topic

[Foxwalker]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 October 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

speak for yourself. Free up the JJs and the Summoner is still considerably second rate to the TW.

Instead, embrace what it is, embrace chassis respective roles and make the Summoner able to turn it's JJs and "role" to it's advantage, with mobility, both JJ and otherwise increases. Better cooldowns, or possibly an internal structure buff representing it's solid, tested no-nonsense nature.

But too often "being competitive" means trying to fit everything into the same cookie cutter. many of use don't care about what is perceived as "competitive". I want the mech to fit my style and the role it was designed for, and then, it will be competitive enough for me.

I agree with this... I am very happy with what Russ said. Having the JJs has never been an issue for me, just that they don't seem to do enough right now. The proposed changes seems like a big step in the right direction.

[Pariah Devalis]

I would like to point out that the Summoner is seeing a ton of use by many comp teams in RHoD's 4v4 tournament. The mech simply blows the cataphract and the jagermech out of the water in a brawl.

Saying the mech is not competitive is a joke. Saying it is not as optimal as the Timber Wolf is accurate, which is the problem with all the "bad" Clan mechs. Adder is not bad, it is just not as good a pick as the Kit Fox. Nova is not bad, it is just not as good a pick as the Stormcrow. Etc. They are still plenty powerful against an Inner Sphere mech.

This is why "fairness," as you put it, is important. The only reason the suboptimal mechs are scorned is because the optimal mechs set the bar too high to match, and that bar might simply be too high to begin with.

[Rebas Kradd]

Viktor Drake, on 01 October 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

The point is that these mechs aren't competitive. In no way shape or form is a Summoner about to compete against a Timber Wolf. In no way shape or form can a Nova compete against a Stormcrow. Neither are even close to being able to do so either.

Unfortunately, such considerations are moot in MWO because every match is 12v12. That forces "fairness" to be the prime factor.

[FupDup]

What I wonder is why people focus so hard on JJs and not any other "unfairness" resulting from equipment fixed to an Omnimech's base variant.

Such as the Adder's CT Flamer. That's unfair, is it not? Why is nobody asking for all Omnipods that have a stock Flamer to have their Flamer hardlocked?

Or the upcoming Mist Lnyx's Active Probe. On a mech with roughly 6.5 tons to play with, that extra ton could make or break the mech. But you don't get that extra ton, because that AP is hardwired. Why is nobody asking for all Clan Omnipods with an Active Probe stock to have that AP hardwired?

Or the Warhawk. All of those hardlocked DHS, particularly in the LT, eat up a whole lot of critical slots. And if you use something like a dual Gauss build, those sinks aren't even needed. Removing them for extra tonnage (you wouldn't need the cooling) would be a huge boon for the mech. But you can't, because they're hardwired. Why is nobody asking for all Clan Omnipods containing DHS to have those DHS permanently hardwired?


It's a double standard.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 01 October 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

What I wonder is why people focus so hard on JJs and not any other "unfairness" resulting from equipment fixed to an Omnimech's base variant.

Such as the Adder's CT Flamer. That's unfair, is it not? Why is nobody asking for all Omnipods that have a stock Flamer to have their Flamer hardlocked?

Or the upcoming Mist Lnyx's Active Probe. On a mech with roughly 6.5 tons to play with, that extra ton could make or break the mech. But you don't get that extra ton, because that AP is hardwired. Why is nobody asking for all Clan Omnipods with an Active Probe stock to have that AP hardwired?

Or the Warhawk. All of those hardlocked DHS, particularly in the LT, eat up a whole lot of critical slots. And if you use something like a dual Gauss build, those sinks aren't even needed. Removing them for extra tonnage (you wouldn't need the cooling) would be a huge boon for the mech. But you can't, because they're hardwired. Why is nobody asking for all Clan Omnipods containing DHS to have those DHS permanently hardwired?


It's a double standard.

because most people are looking for actual balance, not "fairness", and balance can be addressed in a number of ways, the best by NOT cookie cutting everything?

[Kassatsu]

FupDup, on 01 October 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

What I wonder is why people focus so hard on JJs and not any other "unfairness" resulting from equipment fixed to an Omnimech's base variant.

Such as the Adder's CT Flamer. That's unfair, is it not? Why is nobody asking for all Omnipods that have a stock Flamer to have their Flamer hardlocked?

Or the upcoming Mist Lnyx's Active Probe. On a mech with roughly 6.5 tons to play with, that extra ton could make or break the mech. But you don't get that extra ton, because that AP is hardwired. Why is nobody asking for all Clan Omnipods with an Active Probe stock to have that AP hardwired?

Or the Warhawk. All of those hardlocked DHS, particularly in the LT, eat up a whole lot of critical slots. And if you use something like a dual Gauss build, those sinks aren't even needed. Removing them for extra tonnage (you wouldn't need the cooling) would be a huge boon for the mech. But you can't, because they're hardwired. Why is nobody asking for all Clan Omnipods containing DHS to have those DHS permanently hardwired?


It's a double standard.

Probably because they're a perceived balance issue. Even with that flamer the Adder still has 16 tons of space and all it really affects is that it shows "flamer" on your weapon HUD and screws with the arbitrary heat efficiency number in the in-game mech lab. That's the same tonnage as a Nova, or a Kit Fox with stock armor. The former has over 4x the possible number of weapon hardpoints as the Adder. Adder still sucks though.

Not that I'd mind the extra energy slot and half ton of weight on my own Adder or anything. Adder still sucks though.

I wouldn't mind seeing those Warhawk DHS freed up, but then again, even when piloting one myself, it's not much of an issue. I've also managed to make several (useable, not particularly good) builds that aren't totally reliant on the right torso pod space for ammunition and the like. The Nova and Summoner are stuck with a malfunctioning mobility device that winds up being more of a handicap than anything else. Also, Adder still sucks.

[Andi Nagasia]

i feel the solution to alot of Omni-Mech Problems it more Omni-pods
dont get me wrong, i dont agree with Fixed JJ, but i can see where they are coming from,


i feel if the Nova and Summoner do need a buff had more Omni-Pods it would help greatly,
Omni Invasion Wave 1, New Clan Omni Mech Variants / Pods!

sorry for cross linking,

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 October 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

because most people are looking for actual balance, not "fairness", and balance can be addressed in a number of ways, the best by NOT cookie cutting everything?

To reiterate, it appears that most people are in favor of all Omnipods having their JJs hardwired, rather than just the ones who have them on the base config (such as Nova and Summoner). Why isn't this argument being extended to all other hardwired inequalities?

"Not cookie cutting everything" is actually the exact reason why I dislike the upcoming hardwired Omnipod jets rule. I will make absolutely no attempt to deny that the Mad Cat deserves a dose of the nerf bat, and that this change almost certainly will not be sufficient to balance the mech. But that doesn't mean we need to change the construction rules just to compensate for one obnoxiously overpowered chassis.

Just making JJs powerful enough when used in large numbers (i.e. 5+) would be the best solution that doesn't just make everybody the same. People who pay up the tonnage and slots for more jets (whether by free will or being hardwired) should be adequately compensated for such sacrifices -- we shouldn't have to play Mechlab Police here and just make everybody use Hoverjets™.

Edited by FupDup, 01 October 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Mercules, on 01 October 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Um.....

ump Jet Thrust
Since the adjustment of JJ thrust, along with fall damage, we have seen 'pop-tarting' gameplay decrease to a much more acceptable level. I think everyone agrees this is a positive step for MWO. However, I think certain 'Mechs, well-represented by the Summoner (who takes 5+ JJ into combat), are not receiving enough of a benefit for taking them into battle. I am going to be making a small adjustment to allow the thrust to increase a little bit faster as you add more JJs. This will make those 'Mechs feel a little more mobile and give more advantage to 'Mechs that dedicate more space to JJ.

Let me point this out:

" I am making a SMALL adjustment to allow the thrust to increase a little bit faster as you add more JJs. This will make those Mechs feel a little bit more mobile....."

I am talking about a major change where you can actually jump straight up 30-50m, then lightly touch the forward button to "step" unto the top of the building or ridge or being able to actually jump sideways or be running full speed forward at a run only to hit your JJs and leap backwards kind of like JJs are suppose to work ala lore.

That what I would like though that would probably over power JJs so I don't expect that at all. The point was I would like to see JJs get significant love to the point that having JJs on mech was a much better option than an extra PPC. "Smalls" and Little Bits" aren't got to get us there though but I will admit it is a step (or jump) in the right direction.

[FupDup]

Kassatsu, on 01 October 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Probably because they're a perceived balance issue. Even with that flamer the Adder still has 16 tons of space and all it really affects is that it shows "flamer" on your weapon HUD and screws with the arbitrary heat efficiency number in the in-game mech lab. That's the same tonnage as a Nova, or a Kit Fox with stock armor. The former has over 4x the possible number of weapon hardpoints as the Adder. Adder still sucks though.

Not that I'd mind the extra energy slot and half ton of weight on my own Adder or anything. Adder still sucks though.

I wouldn't mind seeing those Warhawk DHS freed up, but then again, even when piloting one myself, it's not much of an issue. I've also managed to make several (useable, not particularly good) builds that aren't totally reliant on the right torso pod space for ammunition and the like. The Nova and Summoner are stuck with a malfunctioning mobility device that winds up being more of a handicap than anything else. Also, Adder still sucks.

You sure? Because I think that a Mist Lynx would really love to have 7.5 tons of pod space instead of 6.5 tons. That looks like a balance issue, right? An Adder could at least replace that Flamer with an ERSL for slightly more damage output and range. Warhawks could pack more backup weapons on their dual Gauss builds, or missile boat builds I guess.

...

The reason that JJs are an "issue" right now is because they're very very badly designed. Most of the benefit seems to come from the first few (1-3) jets, and the rest aren't really that effective. And that should change. I'd suggest a linear scale of X number of jets = X effectiveness. So, 1 jet would be X power. 2 jet would be 2X power. 5 jets would be 5X power, and so on. Mechs who get them hardwired to the base config wouldn't be cursed by their hardwired jets if Jump Jets actually functioned in a sensible way.

Edited by FupDup, 01 October 2014 - 10:12 AM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

I'd also gladly accept them putting the F variant arms in for a summoner.

1 Ballistic + 1 Energy per arm. hell yes, Quad MG summoner!

Nova could use the C config, being able to mount a gauss rifle and some small lasers/SRMs would be great.

I hope that's the route that take for clan mechs, crappy ones get more arms+torsos.

[LauLiao]

Viktor Drake, on 01 October 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

I am talking about a major change where you can actually jump straight up 30-50m, then lightly touch the forward button to "step" unto the top of the building or ridge or being able to actually jump sideways or be running full speed forward at a run only to hit your JJs and leap backwards kind of like JJs are suppose to work ala lore.

In lore, "Jumping" with a mech is akin to shot-putting a brick. Not exactly a delicate or fine operation.

[Jonathan Paine]

Viktor Drake, on 01 October 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Instead they are looking for Competitiveness.
...

Recently you announced that in order to be "fair" you have decide to hard lock or "fix" JJs into all Chassis mounting JJs but you seemed to have really missed the point of the complaints about the fixed Jump Jets on the Summoner and Nova.
....

So what Nova and Summoner pilots are asking for is a way to be competitive. One of the ways they might be competitive is if they can remove the fixed, near tactically useless, JJs from their mechs in order to mount a better weapons profile.
...

Actually, as long as there is no hope of balancing Clan vs IS in something like a 10vs12 level, I really want TW's and SC's nerfed to the level of Summoners and Novas. And yes, my evil Clan alt pilots both Summoners and Novas - both which are close to IS level of (lack of) effectiveness.

[Kain Demos]

Jonathan Paine, on 01 October 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Actually, as long as there is no hope of balancing Clan vs IS in something like a 10vs12 level, I really want TW's and SC's nerfed to the level of Summoners and Novas. And yes, my evil Clan alt pilots both Summoners and Novas - both which are close to IS level of (lack of) effectiveness.

People like you bring down the community for everyone.

[Khobai]

The Summoner fares fine vs most IS mechs. The only real problem with the Summoner is that the Timber Wolf is outright better. So the key to balancing the Summoner mostly involves nerfing the !@#$ out of the Timber Wolf. Although the Summoner itself also needs some adjustments.

The main problem with the Timber Wolf is the S side torsos dont have enough penalties to balance out the fact theyre the best side torsos for hardpoints AND give jumpjets too. The S side torsos need some massive penalties added. The penalties they have now are laughable.

The Summoner also needs a quirk which makes up for it not having Endosteel. Because thats a loss of 3.5 tons of podspace for absolutely no good reason. So the Summoner should either get a bonus to heat dissipation and/or damage reduction to make up for the missing 3.5 tons.

Lastly the Summoner needs a new arm omnipod added to give it additional energy harpdoints.

Edited by Khobai, 01 October 2014 - 10:54 AM.

[Appogee]

Part of the problem is 3-3-3-3 instead of weight matching.

If you only need to take one Clan heavy of any weight, you will always take the Timbie. If you only need to one Clan Assault of any weight, you will always take the Dire Whale. Ditto the Storm Crow in the Clan Mediums.

If tonnage actually mattered, then the difference in weight between a Summoner, Timbie

there'd be times where you'd need to take something other than the best Mech in its weight class.

Edited by Appogee, 01 October 2014 - 11:19 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Part of the problem is 3-3-3-3 instead of weight matching.

Agreed. 3/3/3/3 is a problem. Weight matching should be the #1 priority. Both teams should have a collective tonnage that falls between 650-700 tons. And clan mechs should count as being 5-10 tons heavier for matchmaking purposes.

That tonnage range prevents teams from having all heavies/assaults so theres no need to worry about lighter mechs not being used. And thus no reason to enforce 3/3/3/3.

Edited by Khobai, 01 October 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

shad0w4life, on 01 October 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Nova could use the C config, being able to mount a gauss rifle and some small lasers/SRMs would be great.

I hope that's the route that take for clan mechs, crappy ones get more arms+torsos.

If you are mounting any ballistic larger than MGs, there is a good chance you are doing it wrong. The missile hardpoints would help the Nova, but wouldn't save it. The Nova was meant to boat small direct fire weapons thus why it was cursed/graced with Standard armor and Standard internals (gotta have room for all those DHS). Thanks to all the nerfs to Clan lasers and Ghost Heat though, the Nova was bound to be bad. Now if they could solve the boating problem without Ghost Heat and unnerf at least ERSL, the Nova could have a niche. As it stands though, its niche is just being one of those mechs that you laugh at when you see.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 01 October 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[dwwolf]

JJs should function like a hard boost when they burn. With the pilot choosing by toggle the angle : 30,45,60 and 75 degree angle. 30 degrees should net you the full btech jump distances. At the cost of height. 25% 40% 70% and 100% of btech jumpheight achieved, inverse for distance. Angle can be toggled during flight. Have fun with you flight skills.

[Rhent]

Viktor Drake, on 01 October 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Instead they are looking for Competitiveness.

Recently you announced that in order to be "fair" you have decide to hard lock or "fix" JJs into all Chassis mounting JJs but you seemed to have really missed the point of the complaints about the fixed Jump Jets on the Summoner and Nova.

The point is that these mechs aren't competitive. In no way shape or form is a Summoner about to compete against a Timber Wolf. In no way shape or form can a Nova compete against a Stormcrow. Neither are even close to being able to do so either.

So what Nova and Summoner pilots are asking for is a way to be competitive. One of the ways they might be competitive is if they can remove the fixed, near tactically useless, JJs from their mechs in order to mount a better weapons profile.

That is what they are looking for, a balancing fix for their sub-optimal mechs, not changes to other mechs that don't address the underlying issue.

I mean honestly, this situation is kind of like the evil headmaster at an orphanage deciding to cut all the children's food portions in half just to be "fair" because one child happened to complain he didn't get as big a portion as the other children one day.

Seriously these types of changes are why you, PGI, have so many in the community turned against you so how about instead of making a change that doesn't even address the issue and will further inflame negativity in the community, you actually come up with a real solution instead?

For example, the Summoner.

Issue with the Summoner is mostly in its lack of hard point options. Adding one omnipod that adds 2 Energy mounts to the left torso and one omnipod that adds 2 missile mounts to the left torso would go a long way to allowing for a better weapons profile and increasing its competitiveness and effectiveness without having to modify its fixed JJs or you could just let them remove them.

Now the Nova.

This one is a tougher nut to crack. The combination of the JJ nerf and laser heat increase has hit this mech hard. What it really needs is for lasers to be reverted back to a more reasonable level of heat but since we know that isn't going to happen there are two things that can be done. First is again adding in additional omnipods that allow for a few missile hard points. This way a Nova pilot could opt to remove several very hot lasers in favor of cooler LRMs or SRMs. The second is adding some positive quirks that allow it to better deal with the heat generated by laser weapons. Finally again you can just allow them to remove the JJs.

Anyway, these unlike the proposed "fixing" of JJs on the Timber Wolf and Kit Fox are actual SOLUTIONS, not some backhanded....well to be honest, insult to the people who are bringing legitimate concerns about the viability of the Summoner and Nova to your attention.

I bought the Nova. I used the Nova for less than 10 matches and will not use it again. The Nova runs ridiculously hot. If you wanted to build a build that uses most of the hard points, has long range/close range capabilities and the ballistics for when it runs hot you get this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a8ef935e70cb6e9

This is not a competitive mech by any ways/means/forms comapred to a stormcrow that has more tonnage to bulk up on missiles, which for the clans do the best damage for the heat currently.