75 replies to this topic

[Malcolm Reynolds]

Goodbye timberwolf. I thought I finaly had a k2 that could jump Now a 2 lbx-10 4 medium lasers with enough ammo is a pipe dream. Goodbye dual gauss and 4 lrm 15. Goodbye thinking the timberwolf was better then a catapult or jager. Now you are on par with the Summoner, the quickdraw and the dragon.....unless the quirks on two of them are amazing, then just the Summoner. Goodbye all the C-Bills I spent build you all that way and hello stockpile of weapons not sitting in you.

[IceSerpent]

Russ Bullock, on 03 October 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

If someone wants to make a true impact on PGI with sized hard points - pick a mech with lots of variants and lay out all the sizes for all the hard points on all the variants

Then compare that to the current game and come up with a true audit of what builds would still exist, which ones would disappear.

Although it might help removes some "problem builds" I wonder how many very good builds it might remove.

This is an exercise I that PGI will not have time for in the next couple of months as we work on CW phase 2.

I'll take a shot:

1. Stalker (assuming that we want to limit (ER)PPCs to 4 max)

Limit LT and RT energy hardpoints to 2 slots max on 3F, 4N, 5S. Leave the rest of hardpoints at "unlimited" size. Builds other than hexastalker (and 5 PPC Stalker, if anybody drives that) remain unaffected.

2. Dire Wolf (also assuming that we want to limit (ER)PPCs to 4 max)

Limit all energy hardpoints to 1 slot max, except for 2 on each of the Prime arms. Also affects builds that pack more than 4 CLPLs, as they also occupy 2 slots.

Any other mechs / builds we need to do this for?

[Scratx]

Kitsune Kaji, on 03 October 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Goodbye timberwolf. I thought I finaly had a k2 that could jump Now a 2 lbx-10 4 medium lasers with enough ammo is a pipe dream. Goodbye dual gauss and 4 lrm 15. Goodbye thinking the timberwolf was better then a catapult or jager. Now you are on par with the Summoner, the quickdraw and the dragon.....unless the quirks on two of them are amazing, then just the Summoner. Goodbye all the C-Bills I spent build you all that way and hello stockpile of weapons not sitting in you.

Umm... even nerfed the Timber Wolf is still going to be the best clan mech and potentially the best mech in the game, period.

Just because you can no longer do literally anything any other mech can do on it without some sort of drawback... oh, and to claim it is now on par with the Summoner... hyperbole, much?

[1453 R]

Hoax415, on 03 October 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

Fine you make it so that you can only fire 3 PPC's at once because power draw and remove ghost heat.

How long does it take for power to restore? .5 sec? 1 sec? 5 sec? It restores instantly right? Or are you suggesting what basically amounts to a second resource that has to have a bar like heat?

You think that builds designed around FLD alpha are now worse than sustained fire builds? Seriously?

You know what is now bad in your system? Any build that is designed around delivering a ~30 point alpha as often as the power system allows one to.

So...the answer is to disable group fire altogether, right? Just make it so that you can only ever fire one weapon at a time, with a global 0.5s cooldown on everything else?

I fail to see what you're driving at here, Hoax. It's like you feel that being able to hit where you aim at with any amount of damage is broken and unsustainable, which is just not correct. Even in a chainfire-only world, the best builds would be those that used heavy-hitting single weapons (PPCs, AC/20, Gauss, what-have-you) to plant a single big whack of damage on whatever component the player wants to hit, and then twist around and defend themselves while waiting to do it again.

Hitting where you aim and being able to aim where you want to hit is always going to be stronger than not doing that thing right there. Not being able to hit where you aim is a recipe for a terrible unfun game. So...where does that leave us, exactly? o_O

[Bishop Steiner]

Kitsune Kaji, on 03 October 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Goodbye timberwolf. I thought I finaly had a k2 that could jump Now a 2 lbx-10 4 medium lasers with enough ammo is a pipe dream. Goodbye dual gauss and 4 lrm 15. Goodbye thinking the timberwolf was better then a catapult or jager. Now you are on par with the Summoner, the quickdraw and the dragon.....unless the quirks on two of them are amazing, then just the Summoner. Goodbye all the C-Bills I spent build you all that way and hello stockpile of weapons not sitting in you.

overreacting, much?

Yes, yes you are.

[Hoax415]

1453 R, on 03 October 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

So...the answer is to disable group fire altogether, right? Just make it so that you can only ever fire one weapon at a time, with a global 0.5s cooldown on everything else?

I fail to see what you're driving at here, Hoax. It's like you feel that being able to hit where you aim at with any amount of damage is broken and unsustainable, which is just not correct. Even in a chainfire-only world, the best builds would be those that used heavy-hitting single weapons (PPCs, AC/20, Gauss, what-have-you) to plant a single big whack of damage on whatever component the player wants to hit, and then twist around and defend themselves while waiting to do it again.

Hitting where you aim and being able to aim where you want to hit is always going to be stronger than not doing that thing right there. Not being able to hit where you aim is a recipe for a terrible unfun game. So...where does that leave us, exactly? o_O

Lets say you are in a SHD with 2xAC5 in your torso. Right now 99% of your shots you fire both AC5 together. Because why wouldn't you want to put 10 damage in the same place right?

Lets say you have a PPC in your arm along with your 2xAC5. Right now whenever its feasible (range, heat, line of fire) you fire all three of those weapons on the same press. Why wouldn't you want to put 20 damage in the same place right?

Yes the changes in projectile speed mean that sometimes the opponents movements at farther ranges will mean that you get the PPC landing in a different place but lets be realistic if you are going to fire all 3 weapons at the same target in the same 2 second window you probably fire them at once.

So there's our simple example. Of course you fire everything at once because otherwise you have to maintain your aim through multiple shots. That SHD is a good mech. But the OP mechs that have caused nerfs to themselves or entire weapon systems have used that same logic to cause big problems with game fun and game balance.

The goal is to change that "(almost) always fire everything you can fire at once" logic. Its not to disable group fire or prevent alphas. That's what the goal of these engine power rating - weapon power rating crazy complex systems are that I don't think even solve anything. That's what the goal of ghost heat was and is.

I believe that we could increase balance and fun if firing all your weapons at once resulted in a trade off in accuracy.

I have no idea how you misconstrue anything I've posted to mean "you shouldn't be able to hit where you aim ever under any circumstance!".

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I Zeratul I, on 03 October 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

The more Russ talks, the more I like him.

There aren't a lot of people I can say that about.

As long as its not just talk.

[1453 R]

Hoax415, on 03 October 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Lets say you are in a SHD with 2xAC5 in your torso. Right now 99% of your shots you fire both AC5 together. Because why wouldn't you want to put 10 damage in the same place right?

Lets say you have a PPC in your arm along with your 2xAC5. Right now whenever its feasible (range, heat, line of fire) you fire all three of those weapons on the same press. Why wouldn't you want to put 20 damage in the same place right?

Yes the changes in projectile speed mean that sometimes the opponents movements at farther ranges will mean that you get the PPC landing in a different place but lets be realistic if you are going to fire all 3 weapons at the same target in the same 2 second window you probably fire them at once.

So there's our simple example. Of course you fire everything at once because otherwise you have to maintain your aim through multiple shots. That SHD is a good mech. But the OP mechs that have caused nerfs to themselves or entire weapon systems have used that same logic to cause big problems with game fun and game balance.

The goal is to change that "(almost) always fire everything you can fire at once" logic. Its not to disable group fire or prevent alphas. That's what the goal of these engine power rating - weapon power rating crazy complex systems are that I don't think even solve anything. That's what the goal of ghost heat was and is.

I believe that we could increase balance and fun if firing all your weapons at once resulted in a trade off in accuracy.

I have no idea how you misconstrue anything I've posted to mean "you shouldn't be able to hit where you aim ever under any circumstance!".

My best 'Mechs, at current, are my TBR-C and my SCR-Prime. Each of them is (intentionally) configured very similarly, with a Gauss Rifle, arm lasers, and torso lasers. My TBR-C has four lasers in the arms, and (currently) three lasers in the torso, as well as the Gauss Rifle. The SCR didn't have the hardpoints for that, so it's currently set up with a C-Gauss in the LA, two C-ERML in the RA, and a C-ERML apiece in both STs and the head.

Neither of these 'Mechs - my best performers, mind - "FIRE EVERYTHING!" all day erry day. Matter of fact, I keep the arm and torso lasers in distinctly separate weapons groups, and the C-Gauss in its own group, on both 'Mechs. I fire all three groups separately save on rare occasions, preferring to aim individually and retain as much accuracy as possible rather than dump damage out there like a fire house. As such, I don't tend to fire more than four lasers at any given single instant. Nor do I do so on anything else I run, even my standard-fit Laser Vomit TBR or my quad C-ERML/3x C-SRM-6 Crow, or pretty much anything else I run that has more than two weapons.

You're saying this isn't good enough? That I should be further punished for, say, firing both of the TBR's arms at once instead of setting up a fourth weapon group to keep its two arms separate? That firing the three torso-mounted lasers at the same time is too much PPFLD and I should be watching the spray all over the place like a drunken teenager triple-wielding Uzis?

Man...the MWO in your head kinda sucks, dude.

[Hoax415]

How come you don't want to remove ghost heat? Why is it ok to punish someone for firing 4 PPC's but not 4 MLAS?

How do you square the idea that ghost heat is fine and it makes the game more fun with your pathetic nonsense babbling about how any reduction in pinpoint alpha would ruin MWO.

Because that's exactly what ghost heat as a system sets out to do.

How come you don't want to remove the Gauss Rifle charge time?

The only reason it exists is because Ghost Heat had a huge blind spot when it came to Gauss (because it generates such low heat) and people realized that 2xPPC + Gauss was doable on a bunch of mechs and those mechs became FOTM because they had ghost heat free high damage pinpoint alphas.

So they added charge time. To prevent pinpoint alpha that combines Gauss with other weapon systems.

But if pinpoint alpha makes the game more fun, then clearly the Gauss Rifle charge time change makes the game less fun right? The game would be more fun if we could use Gauss + 2 PPC in tandem again right?

What about the PPC projectile speed nerfs? Put in to make PPC less useful for long range pinpoint alpha.

Every one of those systems is trying to band aid the obvious problem this game has where you can get all of your weapons to fire perfectly at 1 pixel at the same time. You only have to aim 1 shot to get all your damage in one perfect place.

If pinpoint alpha is good for the game and makes the game more fun why has PGI spent most of the past year+ introducing systems and nerfs to prevent whatever the highest pinpoint alpha of the day was either by nerfing the mechs who could use it or the weapons involved?

Or better yet, why did the community not rise up in anger over these changes that clearly ruin fun because fun is high damage pinpoint alpha?

I don't know why I bother, you've proven yourself to be disinterested in honest discussion and much more interested in shouting about straw man bs like massive CoF that will turn MWO into a turn based RPG with hit rolls.

Edited by Hoax415, 03 October 2014 - 07:13 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Uh... Arent there Mechwarrior games that have already done this in the past? BAM! all the work is done for you Russ.

Bishop Steiner, on 03 October 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

overreacting, much?

Yes, yes you are.

Constructive.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 03 October 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Constructive.

about as much as your reply. Or the original comment.

When a post is that driven by angst and hyperbole, there is zero point outlining what they are not thinking through. Or, when like yours, it simply to troll.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 03 October 2014 - 07:54 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

1453 R, on 03 October 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:

You're saying this isn't good enough? That I should be further punished for, say, firing both of the TBR's arms at once instead of setting up a fourth weapon group to keep its two arms separate? That firing the three torso-mounted lasers at the same time is too much PPFLD and I should be watching the spray all over the place like a drunken teenager triple-wielding Uzis?

Man...the MWO in your head kinda sucks, dude.

This exactly. Undoing convergence means nerfing every weapon and removing any possible baseline for balancing them.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 03 October 2014 - 07:57 PM.

[1453 R]

Rebas Kradd, on 03 October 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

This exactly. Undoing convergence means nerfing every weapon and removing any possible baseline for balancing them.

Did'je see his post up there, Rebas?

Apparently if we just make it so nobody can hit what they shoot at, why, we can take back ALL the nerfs that have ever been issued to any weapon system ever! PPCs can be 2000m/s energy railguns again, Gauss fire can be instant, autocannons can get back their projectile speeds, we can disable Ghost Heat, and it'll all be perfectly, splendidly balanced because nobody'll be able to hit anybody else with any of it!

Until, y'know, somebody figured out how to hit somebody with something after all, and then all the same cycle of crazy nerfhammering would begin all over again.

Blah.

[iHover]

Well I'll wait to see how much of Russ's talk turns into action. Honestly Russ and PGI have no credibility in the gaming community. Russ and PGI have shown they have no problem lying to this community and dismissing it later with phrases like Oh that was our option at the time.
It seems very convenient that Russ has decided to turn over a new leaf now. When he is trying to get his next venture off the ground. I find it far more likely that this is all just damage control brought on by the gaming communities reaction to his crowd funded project. Damage control easily set aside once funds are in hand.

Ill be watching for CW in 90 days just like Ive watched for it every other time PGI has said CW in 90 days.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 October 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

about as much as your reply. Or the original comment.

When a post is that driven by angst and hyperbole, there is zero point outlining what they are not thinking through. Or, when like yours, it simply to troll.

Yours was to simply troll as well, dont lie

1453 R, on 03 October 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

Did'je see his post up there, Rebas?

Apparently if we just make it so nobody can hit what they shoot at, why, we can take back ALL the nerfs that have ever been issued to any weapon system ever! PPCs can be 2000m/s energy railguns again, Gauss fire can be instant, autocannons can get back their projectile speeds, we can disable Ghost Heat, and it'll all be perfectly, splendidly balanced because nobody'll be able to hit anybody else with any of it!

Until, y'know, somebody figured out how to hit somebody with something after all, and then all the same cycle of crazy nerfhammering would begin all over again.

Blah.

We should just make every weapon take ten seconds to charge and cant be fired all at once

iHover, on 03 October 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

Russ and PGI have shown they have no problem lying to this community

Well to his credit he admitted that in the town hall.

[Colby Boucher]

Hoax, while I totally understand you're frustration over the community's knee-jerk reaction to CoF, I have a question about this quote:

Hoax415, on 03 October 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

How come you don't want to remove ghost heat? Why is it ok to punish someone for firing 4 PPC's but not 4 MLAS?

Why do you think it would be OK to punish someone for firing 4 medium lasers, a staple weapongroup of many Battlemechs?

[dwwolf]

Scratx, on 03 October 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

To be fair, if we can find a good solution that avoids the CoF, it would be preferable. I am not a fan of CoF either, though I probably wouldn't mind seeing recoil-causing weapons to have one. (I can't see any reason why lasers should, though, they don't produce any recoil)

There is a reason why I think the better solution would be as I said before on another thread, just make a power budget stat that all weapons draw upon to fire to limit how many can shoot to begin with. Bam, no need for ghost heat and no longer necessary to worry about ridiculous alphas because nobody would have the power budget to execute them. Problem solved. Now instead of punishing people for "excessive alphas", you prevent them entirely.

The only big question here is, will the MWO population accept it over Ghost Heat? I cannot answer that one.

Laser cone should be smaller than other weapons. But cof also simulates aiming error, and the aiming problem is significantly worse than on modern tanks, many more axis of rotation, levers etc, bipedal movement etc. Think of temperature related actuator response of one next to a bleeding hot lasers and compared to one thats much further away in the arm.

[Johnny Z]

I dont like the idea of COF because I have seen it at work in other games. It effects only the legit players and the macro users and aim botters can basically completely ignore it. How they would bring it to this game is another matter. But my initial reasons for not liking it stand.

I have seen single shot rifles in other games that are supposed to be effected by recoil and single mouse button presses act like fully automatic weapons without misses.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 October 2014 - 08:14 AM.

[Hoax415]

Colby Boucher, on 04 October 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

Why do you think it would be OK to punish someone for firing 4 medium lasers, a staple weapongroup of many Battlemechs?

Its about creating an additional decision layer while at the same time increasing TTK so that there are less moments of "well in the time it took me to blink my several story tall robot died" which for the huge supermajority of players are moments that feel "wrong" in a Battletech game. Sure if you walk around the corner face first into two dakka wolves you die. But when a medium is rendered useless by one instantaneous salvo from 600m because every shot landed in EXACTLY the same spot on his armor? Rendering the entire system of location based hp completely meaningless? Something feels off.

How much spread should there be if you fire 4 medium lasers at once? I have no idea. Logically it "feels" wrong to think that 4 medium lasers would have as large a spread as 4 PPC's. Or that laser weapons wouldn't have "low" spread compared to other weapons after all they have beam duration already forcing you to maintain a steady aim.

How much spread should 4 medium lasers have when fired together? The right amount. A system designed to make pinpoint alpha strike not the absolute dominant tactic and build in MWO would require hard work and tweaking so that every weapon felt useful and good.

Obviously if lasers had zero spread and everything else had large spreads we would all just boat Large Lasers. So that's doing it wrong. If the "solution" to the system is obvious and everyone agrees on what the best weapon loadout is, something is wrong.

SRM's obviously don't need to deviate from your center dot they already spread their damage.

What about LBX10? I have no idea. It spreads its damage but if it had no spread would that make LBX10's too good? Sounds unlikely but it could be that LL + LBX builds would be considered the strongest if you set the values one way.

Its a system. Design level decisions would have to be made. It would take time and work to achieve balance.

Its clearly too complex of an idea for the level of discourse an official forum offers and PGI's main player advisers all come from the very tiny group which through self selection enjoys the pinpoint alpha meta (if you don't enjoy playing MWO where every mech is built around FLD pinpoint alpha you won't like "competitive" MWO) so its really a non starter.

[Colby Boucher]

Clearly, people are extremely interested in the topic of convergance, and the more I think about it the more I lean towards some sort of non-pinpoint system as well. I'm on my tablet at the moment, so I'll update this thread with a poll on the issue and my concept of what sutch a system might look like.

As a side note, PGI is often worried about how much of the playerbase these forums represent. Perhaps functionality for officially made in-game polls could be added? That way they could really get everyone's opinion.