49 replies to this topic

[Nightmare1]

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Bull CRAP.

Try being a bit more civil in the forums please as a courtesy to others.

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

When a single mech can run up, click ONE TIME, and immediately do (within 5 seconds, which is next to nothing in mechwarrior combat) a bare minimum of 150+ damage (and often more when dropped on a group of mechs together) to a single concentrated area (which is entirely unlike anything implemented in the tabletop game), it is the very definition of "paytowin" and "overpowered".

That 150 figure is wrong; the true potential minimum damage is higher than that. After the recent nerfs, arties deal 35 damage per shot. If you invest the GXP to upgrade your arty to an Improved Arty, then the most damage it can deal is 350, while the true minimum damage it will invoke is 210 (I believe it is six shells prior to GXP upgrade, yes?). Despite having higher potential damage than what you credited them, strikes spread their damage across six to ten shells that, since the recent nerf, have a rather small area effect per shell. I've emerged from some strikes (both arty and air) without taking any damage at all, and I have also instigated strikes that failed to score hits, despite the target Mechs remaining in the strike zone for the entire duration of the strike.

Also, your five second figure is wrong. After upgrading your strikes with GXP, the flight time is 4 seconds. You might want to do your homework before making an emotional post like this.

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

There's literally NO counter to it. There's NOTHING any player can do on the receiving end. The knowledge that it costs 40,000 cbills per strike is no consolation at all when attempting to carry a team in an Atlas, having a Jenner pop up for 2 seconds, drop an arty strike, and core you through your back with it with absolute minimum effort.

The counter is situational awareness. I've successfully escaped strike zones with BattleMasters and Daishis, so I know, for a fact, that Mechs moving less than 50 kph can leave the strike zone before impact if their pilots are cognizant of their surroundings. Once the smoke pops, you should know of it if you are keeping a good eye on what's around you. Granted, even the best pilots do get hit from time to time, but situational awareness will cut down on this drastically. I only get hit with strikes (arty and air) about once every ten matches or so.

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

And the effect it has on light mechs standing still, instantaneously legging them, is absurd. Attempting to support with a Spider or Kitfox, not being able to see the smoke dropped behind you, and suddenly losing a leg - or dying - because somebody plopped an arty the moment they got hit by you, is broken gameplay.

If you stand still in a Light Mech, you're pretty much begging to die. No pilot worth his salt will stop moving while in a Light Mech. I run Locusts, an Ember, Commandos, Kit Foxes, and Adders to great effect. My basic rule is never stop moving. As a result, I almost never get hit with strikes unless I'm stupid and run straight into one. I also don't get legged by snipers because I don't present them with a target. If you think strikes are OP because they cripple Light Mechs, then the solution is for you to learn to start moving and firing at the same time, and not to nerf a feature of the game for your own convenience.

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

There is so much wrong with arty:

1. Ridiculously low "spread" of impacts
2. Completely negligible period of time between smoke "pop" and arrival of explosions
3. Nothing to prevent a team from taking 12 artillery/air strikes, deathballing into the enemy, and dropping them nonstop for instant success
4. No kind of counteraction available whatsoever - every thing else in the game has some kind of drawback, there is NONE for artillery/airstrikes
5. Despite having no drawback, it's also the highest alpha available of any weapon, any mech can mount it, there's no range limit, and did I mention that 5 seconds barely gives you time to blink before it's hitting you?

1. Since the nerf, the shots have been spread considerably. On one hand it is nice because it has a larger area of effect. On the other, it is not so nice because it is now possible for strikes to miss multiple Mechs within a target area if their pilots are spaced appropriately.

2. Time period is not negligible. Four seconds (if upgraded to Improved) is plenty of time to leave the strike zone, even for Assaults.

3. While this is true, there is some ongoing discussion about potentially limiting strikes to the Drop and Lance commanders for a total of four per team. We'll see what happens with this.

4. Counteraction is awareness and movement. If you stand still and wear blinders, then expect to get hit. If you move around and are constantly checking your surroundings, then you most likely will not get hit. It's just that simple.

5. An Alpha is when a BattleMech triggers off all of its weapon systems. Strike shells do not have an "Alpha" rating; they have a damage rating. What you are attempting to convey, is that each individual shell has a higher damage rating than any other weapon in the game. While this may be true, in order for all fifty points of damage to score against you, the damage must make a direct hit on your Mech. I've been in strikes where I registered three hits on my Hunchback and emerged with over 90% of my armor because I was not close enough to the center of each explosion to receive the full damage amounts.

As for 5 seconds, human response time is about a half-second for average people, and about a third-second for reactive/above average people. Let's assume you're average. That means you have 3-1/2 seconds (because flight times are 4 seconds and not 5 if strikes are Improved) to exit the zone from the time smoke is popped. I've successfully backed Daishis out of strike zones without receiving damage. It can be done. You just have to be aware of what's going on around you.

...As for strikes landing before you have time to blink (i.e. - longer than four seconds for you to successfully blink), well, if this condition persists, you may want to see an optometrist.

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Screw arty, screw the way it gets spammed in pugs, and screw any absurd notions that it's not a negative influence on the game.

My my, aren't we friendly tonight!

To that, all I can say is QQ harder and good riddance!

Edit: Corrected some math. I was burnt out after my engineering courses today and made a dumb multiplication error.

Edited by Nightmare1, 30 October 2014 - 07:36 PM.

[Telmasa]

Nightmare1, on 30 October 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

Try being a bit more civil in the forums please as a courtesy to others.

My my, aren't we friendly tonight!
To that, all I can say is QQ harder and good riddance!

Do you know the definition of "irony"?

I feel strongly about the matter. Sorry that I didn't feel like bothering to beat around the bush, and to fully and kindly articulate for you how I felt his "viewpoint" had no merit or grounds in reality whatsoever.

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That 150 figure is wrong. After the recent nerfs, arties deal 35 damage per shot. If you invest the GXP to upgrade your arty to an Improved Arty, then the most damage it can deal is 135. Furthermore, that 135 is spread across ten shells that, since the recent nerf, have a rather small area effect per shell. I've emerged from some arties without taking any damage at all, and I have also instigated arties that failed to score hits despite the target Mechs remaining in the strike zone for the entire duration of the strike.

Also, your five second figure is wrong. After upgrading your strikes with GXP, the flight time is 4 seconds. You might want to do your homework before making an emotional post like this.

1. Ingame information states thus:
"10 shells drop into targeted area after a 5(4) second time delay. (Which, by the way, I was right and you are wrong, it's 5 seconds for the basic consumable, it's 4 seconds for the upgraded ones, both MC and advanced.) Each shell does 35 points of damage.

Yes, you are correct in that I guesstimated - on the LOW end, assuming that not *every* shell is going to hit.

Let's do some basic math:
Basic strikes: 35 x 6 shells = 210 damage
MC/Advanced strikes: 35 x 10 shells = 350 damage.

That only serves to FURTHER my point that it's a completely overwhelming, unfair amount of damage.

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The counter is situational awareness. I've successfully escaped strike zones with BattleMasters and Daishis, so I know, for a fact, that Mechs moving less than 50 kph can leave the strike zone before impact if their pilots are cognizant of their surroundings. Once the smoke pops, you should know of it if you are keeping a good eye on what's around you. Granted, even the best pilots do get hit from time to time, but situational awareness will cut down on this drastically. I only get hit with strikes (arty and air) about once every ten matches or so.

If, and ONLY IF, you were actually moving already at full speed.

If you are stationary or moving at less than maximum speed, I guarantee that you will not escape an artillery strike in only 4-5 seconds in any assault mech, unless the person who dropped it simply failed to aim the smoke on target.

I make my BEST efforts to avoid artillery (obviously I hate it), and I still can't avoid being hit by 1-2 shell "splashes".

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If you stand still in a Light Mech, you're pretty much begging to die. No pilot worth his salt will stop moving while in a Light Mech. I run Locusts, an Ember, Commandos, Kit Foxes, and Adders to great effect. My basic rule is never stop moving. As a result, I almost never get hit with strikes unless I'm stupid and run straight into one. I also don't get legged by snipers because I don't present them with a target. If you think strikes are OP because they cripple Light Mechs, then the solution is for you to learn to start moving and firing at the same time, and not to nerf a feature of the game for your own convenience.

Not True. Light mechs often find unexpected corners or positions to snipe and support from (depending on the build); standing still is a necessity for maximizing on-target damage, especially if you are using regular lasers.

Not only that, but attempting to scout at maximum sensor range often means peeking your head up and minimizing exposure by standing still and quickly ducking back down - which, if someone happens to drop an arty strike on you, puts you squarely inside the target area right as the shells impact.

Take for another instance, when you're trying to shoot a mech in the back and expose it's core. I guarantee if you are going to never stop moving, you are also not going to ever core that mech's backside without tearing through the rest of his mech first.

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1. Since the nerf, the shots have been spread considerably. On one hand it is nice because it has a larger area of effect. On the other, it is not so nice because it is now possible for strikes to miss multiple Mechs within a target area if their pilots are spaced appropriately.
2. Time period is not negligible. Four seconds (if upgraded to Improved) is plenty of time to leave the strike zone, even for Assaults.
3. While this is true, there is some ongoing discussion about potentially limiting strikes to the Drop and Lance commanders for a total of four per team. We'll see what happens with this.
4. Counteraction is awareness and movement. If you stand still and wear blinders, then expect to get hit. If you move around and are constantly checking your surroundings, then you most likely will not get hit. It's just that simple.
5. An Alpha is when a BattleMech triggers off all of its weapon systems. Strike shells do not have an "Alpha" rating; they have a damage rating. What you are attempting to convey, is that each individual shell has a higher damage rating than any other weapon in the game. While this may be true, in order for all fifty points of damage to score against you, the damage must make a direct hit on your Mech. I've been in strikes where I registered three hits on my Hunchback and emerged with over 90% of my armor because I was not close enough to the center of each explosion to receive the full damage amounts.

1. The "nerf" was nowhere near what's appropriate to make it approach table-top standards. It's still incredibly easy to pack that 210-350 damage into a VERY condensed area.

2. We've already been over that point. I'll repeat this anyway: ONLY if you already happen to be MOVING. The time it takes to accelerate a mech from still-or-low-speed to top speed (the only kind of speed you'll be avoiding anything in an Assault Mech), AND gain any appreciable distance, is far more than 4-5 seconds - and THIS is assuming that you are always able to see the smoke instantly the moment it's fired, which is *also* almost never a guarantee.

3. Limiting the number of air/artillery strikes available per team would be like putting a bandaid on a gut wound. It would make it feel a little better and look nice, but it doesn't address the actual problem. I would be completely fine with the ability to bring 12 artillery/air strikes into a match, IF they were properly balanced and implemented with table-top-like rules. This would likely mean severely lowering the accuracy, greatly increasing the time delay, and also increasing the "charge" delay between each use.

4. That "counteraction", for the third time now, only happens when you are A. already moving, and B. immediately cognizant of the presence of an inbound artillery/air strike. Both of these things are usually not the case, especially in the average pug match.

5. There is no mech in the game that can deal 210, let alone 350 damage, in a single mouse click, or even in the space of time of 4-5 seconds.
Even a DW that somehow is loaded with 4 UAC/20s firing at full-double-tap rate, and also never jamming, would only reach 160 damage, maybe, within 4-5 seconds.

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As for 5 seconds, human response time is about a half-second for average people, and about a third-second for reactive/above average people. Let's assume you're average. That means you have 3-1/2 seconds (because flight times are 4 seconds and not 5 if strikes are Improved) to exit the zone from the time smoke is popped. I've successfully backed Daishis out of strike zones without receiving damage. It can be done. You just have to be aware of what's going on around you.

I'm not going to repeat myself for a 4th time about this.

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...As for strikes landing before you have time to blink (i.e. - longer than four seconds for you to successfully blink), well, if this condition persists, you may want to see an optometrist.

If the only argument you have is to nitpick my vernacular and usage of idioms, then I believe our discussion is over.

[Nightmare1]

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

Do you know the definition of "irony"?

I feel strongly about the matter. Sorry that I didn't feel like bothering to beat around the bush, and to fully and kindly articulate for you how I felt his "viewpoint" had no merit or grounds in reality whatsoever.

Just asking for more civility. Using emotion as an excuse to be rude is awfully poor; try to show some self-restraint.

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

1. Ingame information states thus:
"10 shells drop into targeted area after a 5(4) second time delay. (Which, by the way, I was right and you are wrong, it's 5 seconds for the basic consumable, it's 4 seconds for the upgraded ones, both MC and advanced.) Each shell does 35 points of damage.

Yes, you are correct in that I guesstimated - on the LOW end, assuming that not *every* shell is going to hit.

Let's do some basic math:
Basic strikes: 35 x 6 shells = 210 damage
MC/Advanced strikes: 35 x 10 shells = 350 damage.

That only serves to FURTHER my point that it's a completely overwhelming, unfair amount of damage.

I stated that it was a 4 second delay upon upgrade; not before.

Also, if you bothered to check my post, you would have seen that I corrected my math mistake prior to you finishing your reply.

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

If, and ONLY IF, you were actually moving already at full speed.

If you are stationary or moving at less than maximum speed, I guarantee that you will not escape an artillery strike in only 4-5 seconds in any assault mech, unless the person who dropped it simply failed to aim the smoke on target.

That's not necessarily true. I've been stationary in a Dire Wolf, seen smoke pop, and successfully backed out of a strike zone before the shots landed. Granted, it is much easier if you have momentum, but it is possible to escape a zone from a stand-still if you are astute.

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

I make my BEST efforts to avoid artillery (obviously I hate it), and I still can't avoid being hit by 1-2 shell "splashes".

Once the shots start landing, hit reg is random and depends on where the shots strike in relation to you. Sometimes you get away unscathed and sometimes you don't.

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

Not True. Light mechs often find unexpected corners or positions to snipe and support from (depending on the build); standing still is a necessity for maximizing on-target damage, especially if you are using regular lasers.

Not only that, but attempting to scout at maximum sensor range often means peeking your head up and minimizing exposure by standing still and quickly ducking back down - which, if someone happens to drop an arty strike on you, puts you squarely inside the target area right as the shells impact.

Take for another instance, when you're trying to shoot a mech in the back and expose it's core. I guarantee if you are going to never stop moving, you are also not going to ever core that mech's backside without tearing through the rest of his mech first.

...Then you're not much of a Light Mech pilot. To see how it's done, check out my Twitch and YouTube channels. If you are familiar enough with your Mech and weapons, you don't have to stop moving to score accurate hits and core out Mechs.

As for peeking over hills/around corners, you never peek and stop. Always rock out and back instantly to get a quick visual of what's in front of you. After that, then you can peek out for a longer look if things are clear. You should never remain exposed for longer than a second or two though, especially if you don't have ECM.

Also, try rocking out at an angle rather than straight. That can help you escape enemy fire and strikes more quickly by moving diagonally rather than if you had to just move vertically out of the way.

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

1. The "nerf" was nowhere near what's appropriate to make it approach table-top standards. It's still incredibly easy to pack that 210-350 damage into a VERY condensed area.

2. We've already been over that point. I'll repeat this anyway: ONLY if you already happen to be MOVING. The time it takes to accelerate a mech from still-or-low-speed to top speed (the only kind of speed you'll be avoiding anything in an Assault Mech), AND gain any appreciable distance, is far more than 4-5 seconds - and THIS is assuming that you are always able to see the smoke instantly the moment it's fired, which is *also* almost never a guarantee.

3. Limiting the number of air/artillery strikes available per team would be like putting a bandaid on a gut wound. It would make it feel a little better and look nice, but it doesn't address the actual problem. I would be completely fine with the ability to bring 12 artillery/air strikes into a match, IF they were properly balanced and implemented with table-top-like rules. This would likely mean severely lowering the accuracy, greatly increasing the time delay, and also increasing the "charge" delay between each use.

4. That "counteraction", for the third time now, only happens when you are A. already moving, and B. immediately cognizant of the presence of an inbound artillery/air strike. Both of these things are usually not the case, especially in the average pug match.

5. There is no mech in the game that can deal 210, let alone 350 damage, in a single mouse click, or even in the space of time of 4-5 seconds.
Even a DW that somehow is loaded with 4 UAC/20s firing at full-double-tap rate, and also never jamming, would only reach 160 damage, maybe, within 4-5 seconds.

1) In your opinion. Frankly, I do not believe that modeling this fast-paced MechWarrior game based on a rather static, turn-based board game (I do enjoy those) is a good tactic for game design. I recognize that much of this has been modeled on TT, but I wish PGI had forged its own path or relied more strongly on previous MechWarrior titles and the canon, rather than TT. That being said, arties are supposed to be powerful. They are strong canonically and realistically. Complaining that you can't cope and then demanding a nerf is not a reason to nerf a feature that the rest of us enjoy. You should wait until the new Consumables premier before making any rash judgments; most likely, arty usage will drop off after the new Consumables are released.

2) *Shrug* Sounds to me like you don't know how to keep watch on your nearby surroundings and don't know how to effectively maneuver. If you would like, I could give you pointers in-game. I mean this sincerely and not as a taunt; I'm always willing to help another pilot refine his or her skills if they are willing.

3) *Shrug* Well, judging by the current poll results, 60% of players disagree with you. Sorry, but I think they are right. Current arties are fine as-is; we just need to reduce the number per match from 12 to something like 4 per team.

4) When you say "not usually," you are speaking from your own experience. From my own experience, I can say that I am "usually" aware of strikes very soon after they are instigated, and that I can successfully evade them. I can also say, from my experience, that most of the players involved can successfully escape them as well, as I have frequently witnessed. I do not often see strikes successfully hit more than one BattleMech unless it is in a significant choke-point like the ramps on Terra Therma. Even then, there is no guarantee that the strike will hit; I've seen them miss even there.

All that being said, if your "usually" is that you have no idea as to what is happening in your immediate vicinity, and are too slow or incapable of reacting to critical stimuli like strikes, then I recommend you spend some time in Private Matches with friends or fellow Unit pilots who can help you hone your reflexes and awareness.

5) Correct. However, strikes are not BattleMechs. They are high-explosive ordinance launched from a remote location, designed to obliterate their target upon impact. The fact that they fail to do so consistently is proof enough that they do not need nerfs. Canonically, strikes would turn Mechs into walking skeletons if they failed to kill them. In MWO, strikes primarily just scar your armor a bit. They are only really dangerous if you have an exposed component.

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

I'm not going to repeat myself for a 4th time about this.

Great!

Telmasa, on 30 October 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

If the only argument you have is to nitpick my vernacular and usage of idioms, then I believe our discussion is over.

*Shrug* I'm not here to argue with you. An argument is when two people with opposing, but possibly equally valid viewpoints, have a discussion involving evidence that supports their hypotheses. You're pretty much thumping your chest and saying, "Arties are OP and must be nerfed because I cannot cope with them!" I can't argue with that because it's an emotionally obstinate complaint. All I can do is point out how you are wrong and try to offer you advice on how to be a better pilot. I doubt I will change you mind, but perhaps you will be able to use the advice and improve your gaming experience. Even if you don't, my post may be of use to other pilots, which will be satisfaction enough for me.

[Telmasa]

Nightmare1, on 31 October 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

Just asking for more civility. Using emotion as an excuse to be rude is awfully poor; try to show some self-restraint.
I stated that it was a 4 second delay upon upgrade; not before.
Also, if you bothered to check my post, you would have seen that I corrected my math mistake prior to you finishing your reply.

Noted.

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That's not necessarily true. I've been stationary in a Dire Wolf, seen smoke pop, and successfully backed out of a strike zone before the shots landed. Granted, it is much easier if you have momentum, but it is possible to escape a zone from a stand-still if you are astute.

If the artillery strike was aimed far enough away from you, and it's only the basic version, then I'll relent on that point.

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Once the shots start landing, hit reg is random and depends on where the shots strike in relation to you. Sometimes you get away unscathed and sometimes you don't.

I for one don't enjoy that. It becomes a "Call of Duty" 'care-package/kill-perk' instead of what it's meant to be.

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...Then you're not much of a Light Mech pilot. To see how it's done, check out my Twitch and YouTube channels. If you are familiar enough with your Mech and weapons, you don't have to stop moving to score accurate hits and core out Mechs.
As for peeking over hills/around corners, you never peek and stop. Always rock out and back instantly to get a quick visual of what's in front of you. After that, then you can peek out for a longer look if things are clear. You should never remain exposed for longer than a second or two though, especially if you don't have ECM.
Also, try rocking out at an angle rather than straight. That can help you escape enemy fire and strikes more quickly by moving diagonally rather than if you had to just move vertically out of the way.

The key words in part of my blurb about light mechs, was minimal exposure. It's harder to notice a mech beyond normal sensor range that's standing still (and if it's an ECM mech, you can ignore the sensor range part), if it's also not moving. (And sometimes, even when it's shooting things.)

I'm confident in my own abilities in my Raven, Kit Fox, and the Firestarter* (I've only mastered the first two, I've only taken the trial Firestarter out for spins now and then).

Even if you're rocking back and forth over the space of mere seconds, that's all it takes for an arty strike to be placed - and in my experience, it's usually behind my mech, where I can't see the smoke at *all*.

And, if you're using any kind of Large Laser and are trying to kite components off of wounded mechs, you're going to have a hard time staying accurate enough, if you're full on the move, with these maps with tons of cover everywhere, and the target is also moving & rotating.

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1) In your opinion. Frankly, I do not believe that modeling this fast-paced MechWarrior game based on a rather static, turn-based board game (I do enjoy those) is a good tactic for game design. I recognize that much of this has been modeled on TT, but I wish PGI had forged its own path or relied more strongly on previous MechWarrior titles and the canon, rather than TT. That being said, arties are supposed to be powerful. They are strong canonically and realistically. Complaining that you can't cope and then demanding a nerf is not a reason to nerf a feature that the rest of us enjoy. You should wait until the new Consumables premier before making any rash judgments; most likely, arty usage will drop off after the new Consumables are released.

They can be strong, but should not be as accurate, according to TT standards. (Look into how artillery turns are taken relative to combat turns). The rate-of-fire thing I suggested, also has to do with the logic of artillery tubes being able to snap to any point of the map instantly upon the detection of a popped "smoke" signal, as the 4-5 seconds have to be attributed to shell travel time.

I wish to reinforce my point, Artillery/Air strikes should NOT be a "Call of Duty" gimmick like they are right now.

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2) *Shrug* Sounds to me like you don't know how to keep watch on your nearby surroundings and don't know how to effectively maneuver. If you would like, I could give you pointers in-game. I mean this sincerely and not as a taunt; I'm always willing to help another pilot refine his or her skills if they are willing.

Sounds to me like you're ignoring my point and attempting to invalidate it by claiming I don't know what I'm talking about. If you "sincerely" believe I'm terrible, look at my stats.

It's as simple as this: Mechs Don't Have Rear View Mirrors. Let alone side-mirrors. Especially when your focus is being taken by 12 mechs running around trying to shoot at you.

And that's ignoring ping issues.

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3) *Shrug* Well, judging by the current poll results, 60% of players disagree with you. Sorry, but I think they are right. Current arties are fine as-is; we just need to reduce the number per match from 12 to something like 4 per team.

Again with ignoring my point. The poll here doesn't have anything to do with addressing the question of what is/isn't wrong with artillery, it solely has to do with cooldown time.

Not to mention the "poll" only has 67 votes total. Not exactly the hottest sample size.

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4) When you say "not usually," you are speaking from your own experience. From my own experience, I can say that I am "usually" aware of strikes very soon after they are instigated, and that I can successfully evade them. I can also say, from my experience, that most of the players involved can successfully escape them as well, as I have frequently witnessed. I do not often see strikes successfully hit more than one BattleMech unless it is in a significant choke-point like the ramps on Terra Therma. Even then, there is no guarantee that the strike will hit; I've seen them miss even there.

All that being said, if your "usually" is that you have no idea as to what is happening in your immediate vicinity, and are too slow or incapable of reacting to critical stimuli like strikes, then I recommend you spend some time in Private Matches with friends or fellow Unit pilots who can help you hone your reflexes and awareness.

All I can deduce from this is the possibility that, "usually", you are playing in a lower ELO bracket, where players haven't refined their ability to aim an air/artillery strike properly. In the matches I play in, they don't miss. It's not exactly difficult.

Again, "usually", air strikes are launched while you're also being shot at, shooting at something, maneuvering in reaction to something else entirely, and if you're at range, you're often zoomed in, further limited your field of vision.

If in the games you play in, the enemy is giving you time to concentrate and react solely to the air/artillery strike in question unmolested by any other happenings, that's another attribute of the possibility that you play in lower ELO brackets.

That is all assuming that the smoke even appears within your field of vision at all, when quite often it's *behind* you, or even below you & the 'wind direction' just happens to be the wrong way.

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5) Correct. However, strikes are not BattleMechs. They are high-explosive ordinance launched from a remote location, designed to obliterate their target upon impact. The fact that they fail to do so consistently is proof enough that they do not need nerfs. Canonically, strikes would turn Mechs into walking skeletons if they failed to kill them. In MWO, strikes primarily just scar your armor a bit. They are only really dangerous if you have an exposed component.

Here, you admit to something:
"launched from a remote location".
Wouldn't this signify that the time to track to the smoke signal, fire, and then let the shells travel to the destination, would all surely add up to more than a mere 4-5 seconds? Even assuming advanced technology around the year 3050, I think it would take a bare minimum of 10 seconds. (And I'm pretty sure real life examples today, even of close air support which can respond faster than artillery, don't even come close to approaching that number.)

Also, I disagree that the role of "artillery" is to "obliterate the target upon impact", if nothing else, from a gameplay perspective.

Here is how sarna.net defines it:
"Artillery is the use of war devices that can far exceed the range of conventional personal and BattleMech weapons, and is primarily used to support an additional force. Due to the highly explosive nature of artillery, most artillery weapons cause not only substantial primary damage, but also secondary damage to adjacent areas."

Nowhere does it indicate that artillery was ever intended in the role of directly annihilating the target.

The role of "artillery" is, and always should be, suppressive fire support; otherwise, if left to the role of "obliterat(ing) the target upon impact", it really does become a game of "who can bring the most effective artillery hits into a match". I don't enjoy that in a game centered around Mech-On-Mech combat.

The way it exists now, it's essentially a nerf to Assaults and slower Heavy/medium mechs that try to rely on armor for survivability. One click, and you can you close a good 10-30% of your mech, without the enemy having to expose himself for more than the slimmest of moments. That is obscene, especially if a shell randomly hits your rear armor.

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Great!

*Shrug* I'm not here to argue with you. An argument is when two people with opposing, but possibly equally valid viewpoints, have a discussion involving evidence that supports their hypotheses. You're pretty much thumping your chest and saying, "Arties are OP and must be nerfed because I cannot cope with them!" I can't argue with that because it's an emotionally obstinate complaint. All I can do is point out how you are wrong and try to offer you advice on how to be a better pilot. I doubt I will change you mind, but perhaps you will be able to use the advice and improve your gaming experience. Even if you don't, my post may be of use to other pilots, which will be satisfaction enough for me.

Any further discussion with you ended as soon as you typed that part I bolded in comic sans. If you're trying to be funny, I'm only mildly amused.

The rest that follows has no logic or reasoning, and serves no purpose other than you trying to marginalize my own opinion while defending your own as infallible - as though having a twitch stream immediately ordains you as a "master" of the game by comparison.



My points still stand, as any readers are free to observe.

To those readers:
If you've got actual, sound, counter-arguments to points I've made, I'll happily continue discussion of it. Just don't try to justify to me the tactic of "bring 12 arty strikes, spam them all as fast as possible, and clean up the rest".

(Not saying that tactic actually works all the time, I admittedly find personal enjoyment out of defeating such teams; from this point, I would simply rather focus on the practical discussion of what makes artillery unbalanced [or perhaps balanced in your views], rather than debating the opinions of its (ab)use.)

Edited by Telmasa, 31 October 2014 - 03:26 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Meh, most of that wasn't really worth a reply because it was all mere reiteration.

Telmasa, on 31 October 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

All I can deduce from this is the possibility that, "usually", you are playing in a lower ELO bracket, where players haven't refined their ability to aim an air/artillery strike properly. In the matches I play in, they don't miss. It's not exactly difficult.

*Chuckle* I was actually going to say the same thing to you. I consistently run with a lot of the top guns in MWO, although I myself am by no means a top gun. I do score very well in each tourney though.

Conversely, I could say that the pilots in your elo bracket simply haven't learned how to evade strikes or keep track of their surroundings.

Anyways, the bracket I am in does primarily consist of mobile fighters who make good use of cover and avoid strikes. I see a lot of missed strikes because pilots are cognizant of their surroundings. Even when placed behind enemy Mechs, there are enough aware pilots around to warn the targeted one and enable him to escape.

The fact that you stand still as much as you profess, to me, indicates a lack of piloting and gunnery skill. Good pilots will be able to hit their targets consistently regardless of whether or not they are both moving. That is the hallmark of being a deadly combatant.

Telmasa, on 31 October 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Here is how sarna.net defines it:
"Artillery is the use of war devices that can far exceed the range of conventional personal and BattleMech weapons, and is primarily used to support an additional force. Due to the highly explosive nature of artillery, most artillery weapons cause not only substantial primary damage, but also secondary damage to adjacent areas."

Nowhere does it indicate that artillery was ever intended in the role of directly annihilating the target.

Actually, it does; you just showed it: "Due to the highly explosive nature of artillery, most artillery weapons deal not only substantial primary damage, but also secondary damage to adjacent areas." (Emphasis mine)

In short, by your own excerpt, you are showing that strikes are designed to deal devastating damage to a small, localized area with secondary damage effects to a larger, overall zone. That's exactly what we have now, although the strikes aren't as powerful as they should be to completely satisfy this description. You don't reference the books, so I'm assuming you haven't read them. Canonically, strikes were devastatingly powerful against Mechs.

All that being said, the roll of strikes is primarily area denial unless you are in an organized 12-Man. In that event, the 12 strikes can be pretty frustrating. The answer is not to nerf strikes though; simply reduce the number that can be carried into battle. Because of the differences between the organized group and disorganized Pug matches, I think the answer is more complicated and could be resolved in this manner (as I previously laid out in a different arty forum post):

Differentiate between light and heavy strikes. Let light strikes behave exactly as the current strikes do, but only with a 20 point damage stat. Let heavy strikes deal 40 damage and drop five additional shells, but have a recharge time twice that of light strikes, and a team carrying capacity of three strikes only (either heavy, light, or a mixture). The cost of a heavy strike would also be 80,000 C-bills. Heavy strikes can also only be carried by teams.

This does two things:

1) It solves the problem for people who can't handle strikes such as yourself. Judging by the things you've said, I'm assuming that you are a solo pugger who runs a limited number of Mechs. You obviously are a fairly static player who doesn't keep good track of his localized surroundings (not trying to be offensive - am just offering a very frank analysis of your play style based on what you have told me). Making it so that only light strikes can be used in a pugging match decreases the amount of damage you will sustain though, frankly, I think it's really unnecessary. Out of the seventeen matches I played today, I was only hit by one strike (in a Light Mech on a night map - couldn't see the smoke with heat vision), and it did very little damage to me. Since the strikes now lose 150 points of damage, only dealing a mere 200, you should be fine and most complaints should cease.

2) It solves the problem of too many strikes in a 12-man group. Now 12-Mans can only carry three strikes total. Since strikes are supposed to be very powerful and are an important piece of the game and lore, heavy strikes offer teams the ability to still pack a significant, and more realistic, consumable. Since only six strikes total can be used in a match, it prevents spamming.

Now for a bit of math: If 12 pilots brought 12 current strikes, that's a damage potential of 4,200 (assuming every shell was a direct hit and not a splash hit). The 3-strike restriction would only allow teams to deal 1,800 damage (assuming the use of heavy strikes where each shell was a direct hit), which is only about 43% of the previous total. However, the amount dealt to a single zone would be much more severe, making strikes more deadly on an individual basis and their placement critically important.

...But I digress. This topic is, primarily, about strike cool-down time. Frankly, I think a longer cool-down time is livable as long as the strike mechanics (damage, placement, spread, splash, etc.) are not altered.

[Tarogato]

So all those people that have been claiming "even my Daishi can get out of an artillary in time"

o rly?

How come every single time I drop a strike centered on a DWF it always hits? I've never had one miss. It's like playing dodgeball with a tortoise.

Edited by Tarogato, 31 October 2014 - 05:27 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Tarogato, on 31 October 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

So all those people that have been claiming "even my Daishi can get out of an artillary in time"

o rly?

How come every single time I drop a strike centered on a DWF it always hits? I've never had one miss. It's like playing dodgeball with a tortoise.

I don't know; you'll have to ask those Daishi pilots.

For the record, it is possible to escape with a Daishi; it's just not easy to do so.

[Celtic Warrior]

For me personally I would prefer arty/air strikes taken out of the game. I login to blow up mechs via another mech not get wiped out my constant arty/ air strikes. I want mech on mech action not some 3rd person *********** in the corner watching lol.

[Blackcat67]

No, I think the cooldown is just fine.

For me realism is the thing, though I'd be curious to know the times and tactics for strafing and airstrikes in WWII or other engagments.

If I didn't care about the realism MWO offers, I'd still play MW2 or 3 on an old PC.

Software never rusts.

[013]

Red Smoke Everywhere.

Too Much, Far to much. but what can be done. People are changing into different kind of players now. If it cant be fixed, things will keep sliding changing into a different game.