14 replies to this topic

[990Dreams]

Kesselschlacht
Translation: Pocket-battle

So I was playing earlier and my team got our butts handed to us. I ended up feeling really stupid because I fell into a very simple trap. That trap was named by Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke, and it is basically envelopment, and is similar to the tactic employed by Hannibal at Cannae. Let's do a basic analysis of what happened.


Taken from Smurfy's online Mechlab and stats. Click to be redirected to the map.

It's everyone's favorite new map, the Mining Collective! This is actually the map where we were crushed. I recommend looking around the map in the testing ground for areas where there is high round around lower ground. However, I saved you the time for the example. Take a look at the highlighted area (in the green rectangle):


Taken from Smurfy's online Mechlab and stats. Click to be redirected to the map. Edited by DavidHurricane.

This area, if you look in the testing grounds is a nice place to get surrounded by the enemy and die. That is exactly what happened to me. They thinned our forces and then surrounded us and relentlessly poked at us. They'd fire and disappear. By the time I realized we were in the chamber pot, we had already been crapped on. Metaphorically speaking, of course. If you play it smart, this is what the results should be:


Taken from Smurfy's online Mechlab and stats. Click to be redirected to the map. Edited by DavidHurricane.

There are many areas on many maps you can do this in as well. It requires coordination though, so I'd recommend this for groups more than anything else. Also, do not rely on this as a primary tactic. This tactic is purely a convenience. Encirclement only works when the enemy falls for it. Which I and my team did. When the enemy falls for the bait, it is as simple as keeping them shut in while picking them off one by one, making it a very handy tactic to remember.

So what if you're stuck in the chamber pot? That is determined by how early on you notice. You should break out as soon as possible, while you still have the manpower to fight your way out and to fight after breaking out. It is not a hard tactic to escape, but it is a very hard tactic to notice or even realize it's happening until it is too late.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 18 October 2014 - 01:33 PM.

[Void Angel]

The only way to break an ambush like that is to pick a (hopefully) weak point and charge - but that's precisely the kind of behavior the game currently discourages players from playing. =)

[990Dreams]

Void Angel, on 18 October 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

The only way to break an ambush like that is to pick a (hopefully) weak point and charge - but that's precisely the kind of behavior the game currently discourages players from playing. =)

The biggest problem is realizing that you're in a trap before your forces have been thinned out. That's what I've noticed .

[Void Angel]

Well, it factors in. The game currently rewards and punishes ranged combat instantly, but close range combat (and getting into that range) often has deferred rewards which depend more on teamwork. This leads to the Backwoods Moonshine Feud school of combat.

See, it's like two rival moonshiner families are developing a feud. Things are getting out of hand, but nobody really wants to get shot over it, so they move up to their favorite hiding rocks and start sampling their merchandise to pass the time - while exchanging pot-shots with the enemy team. After enough time in the Desultory Gunfire Phase, either one side or the other will get lucky and whittle the other team down, or they'll imbibe enough liquid courage to start being aggressive. Once some combination of this reaches a certain level, one team or the other will start to press forward, and the Final Drunken Brawl stage of the match will occur. If anyone's left on the other team, it turns into "Possum"-Huntin' Time, and then the end of match screen.

Edited by Void Angel, 18 October 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[Void Angel]

This model of gameplay makes it very difficult to identify the problem for a PuG team - because people unconsciously think they only have to do anything differently after one side or the other gets a numerical advantage through kills.

[YueFei]

Actually, if you get encircled, and then *immediately* dive onto one of the sides of the enemy, you'll have temporary numerical advantage. Imagine you have 12 mechs piled up on a high point. The enemy surrounds you on all 4 sides. Even you guess wrong and attack the strongest side, for example one side has 6 mechs, and the other 3 sides only have 2 mechs each, as you push down onto them, the other 6 enemies will lose line-of-sight and no longer have angles to fire upon you. You'll have 12 mechs crashing down upon 6 enemy mechs, a 2 to 1 advantage. You'll hold that advantage for probably at least 15 seconds before the other enemies realize what's happening and reposition to get fresh angles on you.

[Sparks Murphey]

YueFei, on 18 October 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

Actually, if you get encircled, and then *immediately* dive onto one of the sides of the enemy, you'll have temporary numerical advantage. Imagine you have 12 mechs piled up on a high point. The enemy surrounds you on all 4 sides. Even you guess wrong and attack the strongest side, for example one side has 6 mechs, and the other 3 sides only have 2 mechs each, as you push down onto them, the other 6 enemies will lose line-of-sight and no longer have angles to fire upon you. You'll have 12 mechs crashing down upon 6 enemy mechs, a 2 to 1 advantage. You'll hold that advantage for probably at least 15 seconds before the other enemies realize what's happening and reposition to get fresh angles on you.

Which works great... if you're a coordinated team. If you're pugging, you need to convince the rest of your team to charge the same side. The most common tactic (and not always right, especially in this situation) I've seen to steer pugs is pushing tentatively in a direction and relying on flocking instincts to group them around you. In this circumstance, that'll get you killed quickly, and then the rest of your team will definitely not want to go that way since that way lies death. A quick comment in team chat like "push c4 now" or "focus on F, the Atlas" can often overcome that if you've got an observant and willing team, and even a few following your move can cement the rest into following or being abandoned.

[3xnihilo]

Yeah I have had success with a simple "follow me" If someone gives a direction and follows through with it usually you can get a few people to follow you thus envoking the heard instinct of the rest of the team.

[YueFei]

Sparks Murphey, on 18 October 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

Which works great... if you're a coordinated team. If you're pugging, you need to convince the rest of your team to charge the same side. The most common tactic (and not always right, especially in this situation) I've seen to steer pugs is pushing tentatively in a direction and relying on flocking instincts to group them around you. In this circumstance, that'll get you killed quickly, and then the rest of your team will definitely not want to go that way since that way lies death. A quick comment in team chat like "push c4 now" or "focus on F, the Atlas" can often overcome that if you've got an observant and willing team, and even a few following your move can cement the rest into following or being abandoned.

Yeah it definitely helps to use communication.

Even sometimes I play with friends on voice comms, if I'm too lazy to actually tell them that I'm going in, even they won't immediately notice and follow me.

Like you said, if you tell the team you're going in and just go no matter what, even if you only get 3 or 4 other guys to follow you in, it can help drag the whole rest of the team along for the ride.

[Lily from animove]

DavidHurricane, on 18 October 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

Kesselschlacht
Translation: Pocket-battle

So I was playing earlier and my team got our butts handed to us. I ended up feeling really stupid because I fell into a very simple trap. That trap was named by Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke, and it is basically envelopment, and is similar to the tactic employed by Hannibal at Cannae. Let's do a basic analysis of what happened.


Taken from Smurfy's online Mechlab and stats. Click to be redirected to the map.

It's everyone's favorite new map, the Mining Collective! This is actually the map where we were crushed. I recommend looking around the map in the testing ground for areas where there is high round around lower ground. However, I saved you the time for the example. Take a look at the highlighted area (in the green rectangle):


Taken from Smurfy's online Mechlab and stats. Click to be redirected to the map. Edited by DavidHurricane.

This area, if you look in the testing grounds is a nice place to get surrounded by the enemy and die. That is exactly what happened to me. They thinned our forces and then surrounded us and relentlessly poked at us. They'd fire and disappear. By the time I realized we were in the chamber pot, we had already been crapped on. Metaphorically speaking, of course. If you play it smart, this is what the results should be:


Taken from Smurfy's online Mechlab and stats. Click to be redirected to the map. Edited by DavidHurricane.

There are many areas on many maps you can do this in as well. It requires coordination though, so I'd recommend this for groups more than anything else. Also, do not rely on this as a primary tactic. This tactic is purely a convenience. Encirclement only works when the enemy falls for it. Which I and my team did. When the enemy falls for the bait, it is as simple as keeping them shut in while picking them off one by one, making it a very handy tactic to remember.

So what if you're stuck in the chamber pot? That is determined by how early on you notice. You should break out as soon as possible, while you still have the manpower to fight your way out and to fight after breaking out. It is not a hard tactic to escape, but it is a very hard tactic to notice or even realize it's happening until it is too late.

tbh, D4 is not where people spawn, so your team should never be there. And when you never go there, you never need to escape.

[990Dreams]

Lily from animove, on 19 October 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

tbh, D4 is not where people spawn, so your team should never be there. And when you never go there, you never need to escape.

Actually, the point is to put people in the chamber pot. Not to just assume they'll be waiting for you to kill them.

[Lily from animove]

DavidHurricane, on 19 October 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

Actually, the point is to put people in the chamber pot. Not to just assume they'll be waiting for you to kill them.

your team was more meant as generalisation. No one should go there ever, no matter in which way: Initially on intention, or by letting yourself get lured there. Teams are always better when taking the turn to the upper right D3 corner, which is on the way to said pot. and people who willingly go into that pot, don't need any "special" tactic do deal with, since thry already show not many tactical cleverness anyways.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 October 2014 - 03:21 AM.

[990Dreams]

Lily from animove, on 20 October 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

your team was more meant as generalisation. No one should go there ever, no matter in which way: Initially on intention, or by letting yourself get lured there. Teams are always better when taking the turn to the upper right D3 corner, which is on the way to said pot. and people who willingly go into that pot, don't need any "special" tactic do deal with, since thry already show not many tactical cleverness anyways.

Note that I said that this is a tactic to spring if it comes in handy. Never expect to find the enemy in a convenient location. But if you do, then that is a good time to use this tactic.

[0Life]

Void Angel, on 18 October 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

Well, it factors in. The game currently rewards and punishes ranged combat instantly, but close range combat (and getting into that range) often has deferred rewards which depend more on teamwork. This leads to the Backwoods Moonshine Feud school of combat.

See, it's like two rival moonshiner families are developing a feud. Things are getting out of hand, but nobody really wants to get shot over it, so they move up to their favorite hiding rocks and start sampling their merchandise to pass the time - while exchanging pot-shots with the enemy team. After enough time in the Desultory Gunfire Phase, either one side or the other will get lucky and whittle the other team down, or they'll imbibe enough liquid courage to start being aggressive. Once some combination of this reaches a certain level, one team or the other will start to press forward, and the Final Drunken Brawl stage of the match will occur. If anyone's left on the other team, it turns into "Possum"-Huntin' Time, and then the end of match screen.

That... that is the best description of combat I have seen, especially for this game. I love it, and it is true!

[Void Angel]

Feel free to steal it!