2522 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Vassago Rain, on 26 October 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

Yes, I too had hundreds of millions of c-bills, but now I have very few. I'm gonna make the bold claim that you and others like us are in the same position.

Two years of playing allowed us to buy the initial clan mechs that we desired, but now our c-bill savings accounts are depleted.

I had only 14 million when the Direwhales became available for C-Bills. Luckily I work from home and played 7 hours a day til I got everything--all the while laughing bitterly at PGI.

*shrugs*

Edited by El Bandito, 26 October 2014 - 06:29 AM.

[KinsonRavenlock]

All I'm seeing with those numbers is an incentive to either play a 30% cbill bonus variant with premium time if I'm poor but enjoy the game.
Or just buying the mechs outright if I'm more of an instant gratification kind of person.

[stjobe]

Also, if you want to do the old "us old farts had it so good" routine, you really should mention that back then the trial 'mechs were SHS stock variants, not the DHS Champion variants we have today - and we didn't have the Cadet bonus.

There's no question it would be easier on the new guys if either the prices were lowered or the earnings were increased, but do we really have to go through all the "would you start over again as a new pilot" thing? It was *harder* when I started out as a new pilot, not easier. Yes, it's easier for me now, two years down the road, but back then? No contest, it was way harder.

There's nothing stopping a new pilot from buying a Hero or a pack, just like I bought my Founder 'mechs. From there on in, the new guy has an easier time today than I did back in closed beta.

Incidentally, I actually grinded out my first couple of millions in the old SHS trial Commando, not in my Founder 'mechs, just to be able to buy my own Commando.

[Vassago Rain]

KinsonRavenlock, on 26 October 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

All I'm seeing with those numbers is an incentive to either play a 30% cbill bonus variant with premium time if I'm poor but enjoy the game.
Or just buying the mechs outright if I'm more of an instant gratification kind of person.

Which are both predatory tactics, and still don't make things fun, or bring in new players.

It's not 2012 anymore. I've gone from one of the most heavy users, with hours spent playing every night of the week, to playing on weekends and patchdays, to now patchdays and special weekends, and then only an hour or two at a time.



If your most hardcore players are abandoning you, what does that say about the game's new player retention? People deserve more than the choice of grinding weeks for the monthly c-bill mech, versus buying it outright with money.

There's a lot of youtube buzz and internet buzz in general about how broken F2P and early access games are. The fad's dying out already, after a mere two years.

[Elizander]

Vassago Rain, on 26 October 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

Why do we need to farm to enjoy our casual robot shooter game, I wonder? Why can't new players just join in the fun aspect, rather than suffer the most miserable new player experience outside of old hawken?

I note that you also paid 240 dollars for your clan robots. Would you have spent the 70+ hours TIMES 3 to master and module your daishis otherwise?

We're all limited by our play times and while I have much less play time than a lot of players here due to work. If I didn't have cash I would have probably ended up playing the game in the manner that some free players do:

1) Have multiple accounts because Mechbays and Cadet (screw buy and sell)
2) Diss modules. Can't share them across multiple accounts.
3) Some mechs I'll just buy 1 of like a Direwolf and leave it at basic.

The grind is a grind but I'm fine with it if they make the lower end stuff more accessible such as Mediums and Lights.

My main issues with the NPE (which I know they will probably get to after CW) are:

1) UI - it's horrible and it gets worse once you own more mechs due to lack of sorting and the ability to track where is what.
2) Tutorials build into the game when the players need them.
3) Mechbays. 4 isn't enough to hook your players. They should let players earn them so they can get up to 12 total before being forced to pay.
4) Inexperienced players being thrown in with Laservomt Timbies, Metawhales and DualGauss-anything. I agree with what they said about making smaller games that consist only of new players. I will agree to letting vets in if the vet is prompted and warned that he or she will have to use a Trial Mech to participate in the match.
5) Achievements that are easily accessible to the player (with tutorials) that give items that help a new player out and that the achievements are catered to what a new player should do in order to get better.

I get it that the Direwolf and the Timberwolf are currently the best mechs in the game of their weight class and they cost a lot. This makes it an issue as opposed to say the Stalker or Awesome being the best Assault and those are cheap. Maybe the quirk pass will change things around or maybe it won't. If a Direwolf was just as good as an Awesome then it probably won't be as bad due to the Awesome being a cheaper alternative.

My philosophy with MMOs has always been "Fill up your servers first, make money later" so I'm inclined to lean towards giving more to F2P players, but there are business models that just get more whale money by tightening up the paywalls which is quite rampant in mobile games and F2P games (some more than others).

The other side of the coin is that PGI needs revenue so it's a gamble to lower the paywalls and risk the whales paying less while the F2P/minnows/dolphins aren't guaranteed to pay more. I have no doubt that MWO is a top heavy revenue model and those models usually have low player counts.

There are problems and they need to be fixed, but making Direwhales the standard basis for farming c-bills might not be the best solution since that will make it too easy to get everything else.

PS:

I'd probably make an achievement called "Salvaged Clanner" where you need to get like 10,000 "Most Damage" / "Killing Blows" on Clan Mechs and get a Direwhale free, but that's just me. 1,000 can give a clan light, 2500 can give a medium and 5000 can give a heavy. Free bays to go with them of course.

Edited by Elizander, 26 October 2014 - 06:42 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

stjobe, on 26 October 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

Also, if you want to do the old "us old farts had it so good" routine, you really should mention that back then the trial 'mechs were SHS stock variants, not the DHS Champion variants we have today - and we didn't have the Cadet bonus.

There's no question it would be easier on the new guys if either the prices were lowered or the earnings were increased, but do we really have to go through all the "would you start over again as a new pilot" thing? It was *harder* when I started out as a new pilot, not easier. Yes, it's easier for me now, two years down the road, but back then? No contest, it was way harder.

There's nothing stopping a new pilot from buying a Hero or a pack, just like I bought my Founder 'mechs. From there on in, the new guy has an easier time today than I did back in closed beta.

Incidentally, I actually grinded out my first couple of millions in the old SHS trial Commando, not in my Founder 'mechs, just to be able to buy my own Commando.

Again, it's not 2012, and it was an uphill struggle to get them to dump the worthless single heatsink ovens for dubs equipped, properly geared robots.

>but it was worse then! Back in my day, we had to play in dragons with 10 single heatsinks, and one ton of ammo for our UAC5!

This is just making you sound extremely dense, by the way. So it was horrible then, and now it's slightly less horrible, so it's okay?

[Ultimax]

El Bandito, on 26 October 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

I had only 14 million when the Direwhales became available for C-Bills. Luckily I work from home and played 7 hours a day til I got everything--all the while laughing bitterly at PGI.

And this is why free to play games require large time investments.

Because some players have 7 hours a day to play the game, and earn anything they want for free.



I like the suggestion one player made about the Cadet bonus being larger, I would agree with that.

Actually I think it should be:

• +30 or 40% to current cadet bonus (have cadets average over 10 million)
  
• Grant 50% off of upgrades for the first mech they buy with CBills
  
• 2x 25% cbill discount voucher for 2 other variants of the same mech chassis.

The only issue is that you'd be getting more bang for your buck by going with assaults for the variants and some of the upgrades.

[Koniving]

stjobe, on 26 October 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

Incidentally, I actually grinded out my first couple of millions in the old SHS trial Commando, not in my Founder 'mechs, just to be able to buy my own Commando.

Commandos back then were fun to play. The 1-B was my favorite to grind on, this was before ECM naturally. A stock 1-B was incredibly impressive and very cheap to repair even in the event of a colossal failure.

Meanwhile my Founder's Atlas would average me about 250,000 in repair and rearm bills while it went 32 kph with 2 LBX-10s and 2 LRM-20s and ammo for a win, (that's bills to pay out) and a little over 400,000 in bills for a loss. (Granted I could make up to 800,000 on a perfect game, my averages on wins were about 398,000 with Founder's bonus + Premium, while my repair/rearm bill was 250,000... So I got 198,000 typically on a solid win WITH premium and Founder's 25% cbill bonus). Take 75% of that away, and I earned "49,500" cbills.

It was hard back then until the first reward system. But then like this one, it could be massively exploited (3 mil in one match with a Commando using TAG + LRMs during LRMaggeddon with premium). Just this time the earnings per 'handout' is far lower, as they know it can be exploited.

The point is it could be worse. But it could also be better. To me the current costs and such are fine, but once R&R hits us again I'll be worried.

Edited by Koniving, 26 October 2014 - 06:46 AM.

[stjobe]

Vassago Rain, on 26 October 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

This is just making you sound extremely dense, by the way. So it was horrible then, and now it's slightly less horrible, so it's okay?

Who's dense, Vass? Did I say it was horrible?

I was in love with the game, it wasn't a grind at all.

If I had to do it all over again today, I'd be happy to have the Cadet bonus and Champion trials to do it in instead of SHS stock trials and no Cadet bonus.

Also, it seems nobody that do the numbers for what it costs to earn new 'mechs take into account that you have to drop about 300 times in a 'mech to master it anyway - new guys don't have the GXP to fake it.

And if you're working on your mastery XP and making money towards the next 'mech... Is it really a grind?

[Vassago Rain]

Ultimatum X, on 26 October 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

And this is why free to play games require large time investments.

Because some players have 7 hours a day to play the game, and earn anything they want for free.



I like the suggestion one player made about the Cadet bonus being larger, I would agree with that.

Actually I think it should be:

• +30 or 40% to current cadet bonus (have cadets average over 10 million)
  
• Grant 50% off of upgrades for the first mech they buy with CBills
  
• 2x 25% cbill discount voucher for 2 other variants of the same mech chassis.

The only issue is that you'd be getting more bang for your buck by going with assaults for the variants and some of the upgrades.

A larger cadet bonus won't make up for the running costs of keeping up with new mech releases and what seems like monthly nerfs/buffs to make people desire the monthly mech.

If they start with 20 million, they can make the initial payment for an assault, but once the next assault arrives, and they - for instance - make lasers less good, but ballistics become all the rage, then what?

The whole system needs an overhaul, not only to bring in new players, but keep with the times, because this...



doesn't impress in 2014. It worked in 2011 and 2012, but things are different now. I want you all to get that through your thick skulls. A game that's not growing is a game in maintenance or decline.

Those hundreds, or thousands, of hours you've spent playing MWO will eventually go poof as PGI declares the game's no longer economically viable, and close it down.

[Sjorpha]

Yeah, it was pretty harsh starting out this game (spring this year). Now that I have some good mechs and the grind is mostly about modules and prepping for CW it doesn't feel so much anymore.

I think the mech prices themselves are ok actually, it should be a challenge to get the biggest and baddest assaults. But the mandatory upgrades, XL engines and modules are really painful for new players both to compete against and to grind for.

If I started out fresh now I would get a kit fox or stormcrow for first mech to buy with the cadet bonus, because you can make good bank with those to boot without any hidden costs at all. You can also strip off all the omnipods and sell off each chassis after doing the basics to help afford the next one, since with those pods you'll have the exact same possibilities on each chassis there is no reason to have more than one variant (you can master them later on through eliting other mechs in the weight class, so eliting 1 variant of a clan mech is enough for a newbie I think)

So that's my advice for newbies: Even if you are into IS mechs, start with a clan mech (Kit fox or stormcrow, because cheap and identical CT pods). Then sell each variant as soon as it is basiced and can afford you the next, elite the last variant and build it optimal with the previously stripped pods from the others, then use that build to grind the mechs you really want to have. This method is the quickest and allows you to have two fully optimised mechs with your 4 bays. (1 omnipod and 3 IS variants), or potentially 3 fully elited clan mechs with all pods if you want to go all clan.

[El Bandito]

Vassago Rain, on 26 October 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

A larger cadet bonus won't make up for the running costs of keeping up with new mech releases and what seems like monthly nerfs/buffs to make people desire the monthly mech.

If they start with 20 million, they can make the initial payment for an assault, but once the next assault arrives, and they - for instance - make lasers less good, but ballistics become all the rage, then what?

The whole system needs an overhaul, not only to bring in new players, but keep with the times, because this...

doesn't impress in 2014. It worked in 2011 and 2012, but things are different now. I want you all to get that through your thick skulls. A game that's not growing is a game in maintenance or decline.

Those hundreds, or thousands, of hours you've spent playing MWO will eventually go poof as PGI declares the game's no longer economically viable, and close it down.

At least I got YouTube videos to remember it by. xD

Edited by El Bandito, 26 October 2014 - 06:48 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Sjorpha, on 26 October 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

Yeah, it was pretty harsh starting out this game (spring this year). Now that I have some good mechs and the grind is mostly about modules and prepping for CW it doesn't feel so much anymore.

I think the mech prices themselves are ok actually, it should be a challenge to get the biggest and baddest assaults. But the mandatory upgrades, XL engines and modules are really painful for new players both to compete against and to grind for.

If I started out fresh now I would get a kit fox or stormcrow for first mech to buy with the cadet bonus, because you can make good bank with those to boot without any hidden costs at all. You can also strip off all the omnipods and sell off each chassis after doing the basics to help afford the next one, since with those pods you'll have the exact same possibilities on each chassis there is no reason to have more than one variant (you can master them later on through eliting other mechs in the weight class, so eliting 1 variant of a clan mech is enough for a newbie I think)

So that's my advice for newbies: Even if you are into IS mechs, start with a clan mech (Kit fox or stormcrow, because cheap and identical CT pods). Then sell each variant as soon as it is basiced and can afford you the next, elite the last variant and build it optimal with the previously stripped pods from the others, then use that build to grind the mechs you really want to have. This method is the quickest and allows you to have two fully optimised mechs with your 4 bays. (1 omnipod and 3 IS variants), or potentially 3 fully elited clan mechs with all pods if you want to go all clan.

Again, why is it necessary to learn to abuse mechanics/game quirks to get a functional robot up and running?

[Tangelis]

My apologies But my "quote" button isn't Quoting. So..

Vassago Rain: Grinding gold chocobos can't be compared to a game you play for amusement.

I don't know anything else that I or mainly anyone else plays games for.

I may be "Dated" as you say but my point in the comparison was that the "grind" of today is nothing like it used to be. And being from the late 1800's and all perhaps is beneficial.... because I'm not complaining.

MY apologies if I disagree with you and it somehow upsets you, It is just my opinion from my own perspective. I don't believe I was being rude and there was no need to be in return.

[Rick Rawlings]

If I hadn't been here since open beta and made a pile of space bucks before the big nerf of, oh, how many years has this been going on? I almost certainly would not be playing now... As it is, I am very leery of buying anything, 'cause I know that money isn't coming back... If stormcrows weren't on sale, I sure wouldn't have them...

[Elizander]

Sjorpha, on 26 October 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

If I started out fresh now I would get a kit fox or stormcrow for first mech to buy with the cadet bonus, because you can make good bank with those to boot without any hidden costs at all. You can also strip off all the omnipods and sell off each chassis after doing the basics to help afford the next one, since with those pods you'll have the exact same possibilities on each chassis there is no reason to have more than one variant (you can master them later on through eliting other mechs in the weight class, so eliting 1 variant of a clan mech is enough for a newbie I think)

So that's my advice for newbies: Even if you are into IS mechs, start with a clan mech (Kit fox or stormcrow, because cheap and identical CT pods). Then sell each variant as soon as it is basiced and can afford you the next, elite the last variant and build it optimal with the previously stripped pods from the others, then use that build to grind the mechs you really want to have. This method is the quickest and allows you to have two fully optimised mechs with your 4 bays. (1 omnipod and 3 IS variants), or potentially 3 fully elited clan mechs with all pods if you want to go all clan.

That's true. Right now the safest would be a Kitfox. You can buy the arm and ECM and be ready to go with under 7m.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 26 October 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

I had only 14 million when the Direwhales became available for C-Bills. Luckily I work from home and played 7 hours a day til I got everything--all the while laughing bitterly at PGI.

*shrugs*

Are you sure you were laughing bitterly at PGI and not really at yourself?

Edited by Mystere, 26 October 2014 - 06:55 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Tangelis, on 26 October 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

My apologies But my "quote" button isn't Quoting. So..

Vassago Rain: Grinding gold chocobos can't be compared to a game you play for amusement.

I don't know anything else that I or mainly anyone else plays games for.

I may be "Dated" as you say but my point in the comparison was that the "grind" of today is nothing like it used to be. And being from the late 1800's and all perhaps is beneficial.... because I'm not complaining.

MY apologies if I disagree with you and it somehow upsets you, It is just my opinion from my own perspective. I don't believe I was being rude and there was no need to be in return.

I'm not rude, but forward. It's not 1995 anymore. It's 2014.

You can't say 'this grindy game isn't as bad as grinding an optional quest in a 1996 JRPG to get the best summon magic.' Not only are they completely different things, but it's not optional to get a robot setup in MWO, but mandatory. When people realize they need to devote hundreds of hours to get a mech up and running, they go play something else.

And that's the problem here. No one is gonna pick this game up in the year 2014.

Having people go 'don't complain! It was harder when I had to grind gold chocobos so I could get the optional knights of the round materia!' doesn't help anything.

[Ultimax]

Vassago Rain, on 26 October 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

A larger cadet bonus won't make up for the running costs of keeping up with new mech releases and what seems like monthly nerfs/buffs to make people desire the monthly mech.

Serious questions, no BS:

• How many total mechs do you feel players need to play the game?
  
• How many mechs + upgrades do you feel players should be able to attain per month?

• How do you create incentive for players to buy premium if they can get all of that easily?

These are real questions developers need to answer, what are your real answers to them?


Because every time someone provides a counterpoint, you simply move the goal posts. So prove that you are here to actually help the game and not just use the forums as a podium for your upset.



So show us all that you have a concept worked out that balances:

• Players who can play for 7 hours a day and wish to pay nothing
  
• Players who have limited time, but don't mind buying mech packs or premium time
  
• Players who are in the middle of those two groups and have some time and some money to invest, but not a lot of both

Edited by Ultimatum X, 26 October 2014 - 06:58 AM.

[El Bandito]

Mystere, on 26 October 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

Are you sure you were laughing bitterly at PGI and not really at yourself?

As long as my wallet is shut, the joke is always on PGI.