14 replies to this topic

[I_Dorkus]

During a game recently, one of my lancemates had a fantastic idea for a private game, but I thought it would also translate well into public play -- forced stock loadouts on mechs. This would consist of:

• A new game mode that must be selected to entered, which would also essentially filter for only other Stock-Only games during match search
  
• "Stock-Only" versions of each mech that cannot be altered in any way other than camo scheme, modules, and cockpit items -- sold at dramatically reduced C-Bill prices (1/2 price, or so?)
  
• No Champion or Hero mech variants.

Talk about a focus on tactics and pure piloting skill!


There are *so many* purists and table-toppers playing MWO that I think this would greatly appeal to those players and maybe even bring back some of the "I'm never playing again until X, Y, and Z are fixed!!!" players who still skulk around these forums. :-) This would also be a fantastic pseudo-training ground for newer players, as there would be no meta builds to worry about and, by virtue of the types of players who would be attracted to this style, likely more pilots who would be willing to take a new player under their wing and teach them the moyomer bundles, er, ROPES.

I envision tournaments in this game mode, too. The possibilities of how far this could be taken are really up to the community.

Edited by Poomanchu, 04 November 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[Scout Derek]

Not a good idea. First, it's a ENTIRELY new game mode and matchmaker. Second, you may be right a bit, but how many are willing to play just THAT game mode? Lastly, Think of all the bugs that could happen. The match maker could accidentally stick in a pilot with a custom mech into the game, or players getting stuck in a regular skirmish match with other players and their sweet rides and overbearing weapons. Bravo to you, but too many faults and you may not get the results you want. Aside from that, new players wouldn't know WTF it was, because a lot of players don't read the forums much,

[TygerLily]

The best thing that could happen for stock matches right now is for the private lobby to:

• have a selection that reverts all players to stock and then revert them back to their saved loadouts once they leave that lobby or the stock option is unselected. The big hurdle for selling Stock Mech Mondays is getting people to buy a mutlimil Mech or spend multimil on retrofits for them to play a style only occasionally. If it were a quick and easy button, anyone could jump in with what they already own. Have it neutralize all Pilot Unlocks, disable modules and you're good to go! This would also get rid of any gentleman's agreements, honor system, and miscommunication for bringing the right and wrong loadouts, etc.
  
  
  The other bonus to this is it would allow stock players to earn cbills. Currently, taking a stock Mech to the public queue is - while amusing - stupid. And it costs too much to revert back and forth...sure, we COULD just buy duplicates of Mechs - one upgraded, one stock - but for additional reasons mentioned above, an ability to revert back and forth via a button would be the greatest thing of all time.
  
  IF YOU MAKE IT AN OPTION ONLY AVAILABLE WHEN BOTH GROUP LEADERS HAVE PREMIUM (like uneven teams, etc.) THAT'S OKAY.

• Similarly, but not as essential: could we have a "Tech 1" and "Tech 2 - IS Only" and "Tech 2 - All" that simply greys out Mechs that do not meet the criteria?
  
  
  
  
  Tech 1 would be all Inner Sphere loadouts that DO NOT include: AMS, Streaks, Pulse, ER, Double Heat Sinks, XL, Artemis, NARC, TAG, UAC, LBX, Gauss, ECM, Ferro, or Endo.
  
  Tech 2 - IS Only would be all of Tech 1 plus those Inner Sphere that use the above mentioned components.
  
  Tech 2 - All is all Tech 1 and 2 IS and all Clan Mechs.

• have a way to load in a bunch of people and then click "Autobalance" to divide the teams up by matching average Elo. In Stock Mech Monday we have to be very careful because with no way to balance other than to intuit where players go we can end up with one-sided games. This can lead to conflict if we have to say "hey can you go to the other team, and he's coming over here because he's good, and you're middle-of-the-road, etc." Currently, the system is having the lowest damage from the losers and highest damage from the winners switch teams.
  
  
  
  If we could just have an objective arbiter we could load-in, match teams and go without having to adjust after each match.

TL;DR: the two most important things: 1) a selection that reverts all players to stock and then revert them back to their saved loadouts once they leave that lobby or the stock option is unselected (Requiring both group leads to have premium time is OKAY!) 2) a way to autobalance teams in a lobby.

Edited by TygerLily, 01 December 2014 - 01:42 PM.

[I_Dorkus]

Scout Derek, on 04 November 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Not a good idea. First, it's a ENTIRELY new game mode and matchmaker. Second, you may be right a bit, but how many are willing to play just THAT game mode? Lastly, Think of all the bugs that could happen. The match maker could accidentally stick in a pilot with a custom mech into the game, or players getting stuck in a regular skirmish match with other players and their sweet rides and overbearing weapons. Bravo to you, but too many faults and you may not get the results you want. Aside from that, new players wouldn't know WTF it was, because a lot of players don't read the forums much,

You're misunderstanding. I don't mean "select this and it's all you'll ever play again muwahahahahaha" at all. I simply meant that it'd be like selecting Skirmish or Assault, except that when you select Stock, the others are greyed out and no longer an option. *OR* (even better), having the various game modes (Assault, Conquest, Skirmish) checkable on two different columns... selecting Standard greys out the Stock column and vice versa.

That way, it's not a new mode in all technicality. It'd probably work best on its own separate matchmaker system (mirroring ELO rankings across the two), so that cross-type team population like you mentioned wouldn't be a possibility.

[Savage Wolf]

The fact that stock mechs are somehow balanced and tactical is a myth. There will always be meta builds and considering that none of the stock mechs were built with MWO in mind, the balance will be totally random depending on how close to the MWO meta a stock build happens to be.

So the only real merit to stock mechs are roleplaying, but I think that would be best achieved in private matches. Creating a game mode in public queue for something that is fundamentally unbalanced is a really bad idea and would only confuse new players.

Edited by Savage Wolf, 04 November 2014 - 11:23 PM.

[TygerLily]

Savage Wolf, on 04 November 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

The fact that stock mechs are somehow balanced and tactical is a myth. There will always be meta builds and considering that none of the stock mechs were built with MWO in mind, the balance will be totally random depending on how close to the MWO meta a stock build happens to be.

So the only real merit to stock mechs are roleplaying, but I think that would be best achieved in private matches. Creating a game mode in public queue for something that is fundamentally unbalanced is a really bad idea and would only confuse new players.

Eh, we play Stock Mech Monday with absolutely zero roleplaying. The matches do play much differently: slower, shots are more of an investment due to higher heat and lower ammo, and with less armor you must be more cautious and "tactical" in regards to cover, movement, etc.

But you are correct, because MWO brought in Mechs and did things like doubled their armor values but kept ammo the same, etc. Plus in MWO, generally all shots are called shots as opposed to the random dice mechanics of TT. There are also many designs that only make sense in an environment where there is battle values, physical attacks, etc.

So yea, they aren't balanced like regular play isn't balanced...that is to say, you can't perfectly balance no matter what. Stock matches have their own meta, etc.

I'm in favor of both fun, gameplay and can appreciate lore. Having to choose between those is a false dichotomy.

All that to say, I also support stock play being a robust option via private lobbies in the manner I suggested above.

[General Taskeen]

Savage Wolf, on 04 November 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

The fact that stock mechs are somehow balanced and tactical is a myth. There will always be meta builds and considering that none of the stock mechs were built with MWO in mind, the balance will be totally random depending on how close to the MWO meta a stock build happens to be.

So the only real merit to stock mechs are roleplaying, but I think that would be best achieved in private matches. Creating a game mode in public queue for something that is fundamentally unbalanced is a really bad idea and would only confuse new players.

Stock Mechs are balanced vs. Stock Mechs. Its how they were designed in BattleTech and they are balanced relatively speaking despite MWO's lackluster programming. Its not perfect, but its good enough. The Stock community has proven this in numerous play tests. When a Locust with 3 weapons becomes a premiere Light mech to use is a sight to behold in stock play - if that's "meta," count me in.

I'm not sure if you are young or new to Mech Warrior (it certainly seems that way), but Stock Mode has been a mode in the previous Mech Warrior games for decades. Quite popular too, I might add. So your very first sentence is actually the myth.

Scout Derek, on 04 November 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Not a good idea.

Here's my rebuttal. Its not a good idea to not have it at all.

A. I've seen numerous posts from newbie players with or 1-2 posts, for 2 years now, requesting stock mode that wanted it, because really its perfect for them, they don't have to grind to upgrade their newly bought Mechs with c-bills. They just pick a Mech and get good at it, in that specific mode.

B. On the flip side, by not having it at all, it alienates hundreds/thousands of hardcore players like myself that used it in the previous games. 'Open Custom' is not a good representation of Battle Tech at all, and most players like myself will not support this game with real money anymore. The past games had way more possibilities for server types and restrictions types, which was a no brainer design decision on behalf of those developers.

So not only can it possibly hurt player retention by not having it (which I have seen occur), but it hurts possible revenue expansion.

Edited by General Taskeen, 05 November 2014 - 11:46 AM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Yes we need stock mode. Some more ammo per tone, and thats it. Sure some meks are designed to melee, but otherwise balance and gameplay is a lot better.
And we just know that. Is a fact and there is no room for speculation. Thing was tested countless times already.

[Savage Wolf]

TygerLily, on 05 November 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

I'm in favor of both fun, gameplay and can appreciate lore. Having to choose between those is a false dichotomy.

By all means people should do whatever they think is fun, because that is what we all want.

General Taskeen, on 05 November 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Stock Mechs are balanced vs. Stock Mechs. Its how they were designed in BattleTech and they are balanced relatively speaking despite MWO's lackluster programming. Its not perfect, but its good enough. The Stock community has proven this in numerous play tests. When a Locust with 3 weapons becomes a premiere Light mech to use is a sight to behold in stock play - if that's "meta," count me in.

You made the point yourself. They were designed for Battletech and while MWO tries to mimic battletech it will never be battletech and shouldn't be either. But that also means that they were not designed for MWO. I'm sure you have found some really fun and useful stock mechs, but you probably also have some that are being left back at the hangar because they simply wasn't built for MWO.

General Taskeen, on 05 November 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

I'm not sure if you are young or new to Mech Warrior (it certainly seems that way), but Stock Mode has been a mode in the previous Mech Warrior games for decades. Quite popular too, I might add. So your very first sentence is actually the myth.

I know stock mode has been there before. That does not mean that stock mechs are more balanced, just that they always had their fan following. By no means does it disprove my point.

[TygerLily]

Yea, I think in the main queue, there are also mechs "left at the hangar" as you say and in the stock scene there are mechs "left at the hangar." I think when you relegate your comparisons to their own realm then you'll see that neither mode is "better" than the other.

Savage Wolf, on 05 November 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

By all means people should do whatever they think is fun, because that is what we all want.

I think I was referring mostly to your sig which was sort of related to the topic at hand: "Gameplay & Fun is more important than Lore."

That, IMO, is not a choice we have to make so long as we all understand MWO isn't Battletech and Battletech isn't MWO. Both are fun, have their virtue, but they DO share a fictional world with a multidecade history. You can't just discard that and write of people who want to see more of it.

For example, I wish there were "brand names" to all the weapons in the Mechbay, and lore tidbit on the loadingscreen alongside the gameplay tips, etc. Nothing about the gameplay has changed but you get the lore. And even relegating certain mechs to certain roles (PPCs for the Awesome, etc.) has a stark gameplay element...but who cares?! There are 120+ Mechs...let some play better with the loadout they have in lore. Things like that...

[Savage Wolf]

TygerLily, on 05 November 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

Yea, I think in the main queue, there are also mechs "left at the hangar" as you say and in the stock scene there are mechs "left at the hangar." I think when you relegate your comparisons to their own realm then you'll see that neither mode is "better" than the other.

That was the point that really wanted to make. Neither is more balanced or better, they are simply different having each their own meta. But if you like the other meta better or what other changes it brings, go nuts.

TygerLily, on 05 November 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

I think I was referring mostly to your sig which was sort of related to the topic at hand: "Gameplay & Fun is more important than Lore."

That, IMO, is not a choice we have to make so long as we all understand MWO isn't Battletech and Battletech isn't MWO. Both are fun, have their virtue, but they DO share a fictional world with a multidecade history. You can't just discard that and write of people who want to see more of it.

For example, I wish there were "brand names" to all the weapons in the Mechbay, and lore tidbit on the loadingscreen alongside the gameplay tips, etc. Nothing about the gameplay has changed but you get the lore. And even relegating certain mechs to certain roles (PPCs for the Awesome, etc.) has a stark gameplay element...but who cares?! There are 120+ Mechs...let some play better with the loadout they have in lore. Things like that...

My sig is mostly a response to some very conservative individuals on this forum that refuse to believe that any change from battletech is good. To them, all of battletech is lore, the rules, the stock mechs, the history, the explinations given for why the rules work the way they do, really just everything. They use lore to justify that nothing should change.
And I love the history of Battletech and wouldn't want throw that away for the world. But if changes could be made to make MWO a better experience, but requires that some lore explination of how some component works needs to be rewritten, then I'm all for it. It wont change that Victor Steiner-Davion kicked some clan ass with a temporary star league at his back, only that his mech or PPCs worked slightly different while doing it.
But I think this is off topic.

Edited by Savage Wolf, 06 November 2014 - 06:22 AM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

The problem is that those "changes" that you call, are making MWO actually worst.

[DeltaWhite]

Stock games is a MUST

[F R A N C I S]

I think a stock mode would be great... costs nothing in addition to having to have purchased/still own the mech.
Just reverts to complete stock as if you just bought it.

Have an option whether to allow module or not...

Almost all FPS shooters have various options that allow/disallow a multitude of variables. But that could be too difficult for PGI.

[Rushin Roulette]

General Taskeen, on 05 November 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Stock Mechs are balanced vs. Stock Mechs. Its how they were designed in BattleTech and they are balanced relatively speaking despite MWO's lackluster programming. Its not perfect, but its good enough. The Stock community has proven this in numerous play tests. When a Locust with 3 weapons becomes a premiere Light mech to use is a sight to behold in stock play - if that's "meta," count me in.

I wouldnt really count too much on that view. Since the Quirk update, quite a few of the basic stock mechs are deffinitely viable against fully customised mechs. Ive dropped a few rounds with my Stock Hunchie 4P and it may not be the top damager in the team but It is well above the lowest damage dealer and can deffinitely compete with some of the top damage dealers on the customised Medium Mechs