7 replies to this topic

[Sigmar Sich]

IMHO
Quirks affecting specific weapons - bad decision. Because:
1) Such quirks negatively affecting loadouts diversity.
If mech have improvement for some weapon - you mostly will not see this mech with other weapons in main role. For example - TDR-5SS have major improvement for MPL, and as consequence TDR-5SS loadouts, which not using MPL as main caliber, are extinct. This isnt good.
2) They dont have logical explanation.
For example "MPL range +X%". If somehow you can explain it by "this mech have more space for lens adjustment", then why it is affecting only one weapon type, and not its close relatives - ML, SL, SPL?

So, how to change this to the better, not ruining weapon quirks.
Quirks should be not for specific weapons, but for groups of weapons sharing similar construction.
For example - not "MPL range +X%", but "+X% range for little beam systems". This will affect, for example, SL, SPL, ML, MPL. Or not "AC/20 -X% reload time", but "-X% reload time for large caliber cannons (AC/20, AC/10, LB 10-X AC, but not Gauss)"
This way we have more diversity. And diversity is dominant feature of mechlab, and should not be reduced.

Though i think better to cut off quirks for weapon range or velocity, as terribly illogical, because they not dependent from mech, but from weapon itself. But maybe keep quirks for reload time, heat reduction, etc. And more attention should be given to "mech quirks", such as additional armor or structure, turning rates, etc. The more mechs will feel different in piloting and under fire - the better.
In short - quirks should be about mechs, not about weapons, at least not about specific weapons.
If made carefully, it will not interfere with quirks main goal - improve unpopular chassis for competitiveness.

Sigmar Sich, on 27 November 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Here is more accurate example of what reworked quirks could look like, using mech's tier tables
Lets say tier 1 gets only shared chassis quirks (like additional armor or structure because of construction), and next tiers get 15%, 30%, 45% and 60% summary bonuses respectively (example - tier 2 gets 30% summary bonus - it could be or {-30% energy heat generation}, or {-10% ballistic cooldown, plus -12.5% energy heat generation, plus -7.5% heat generation for large beam weapons}) (or if it is too much, lets reduce bonuses to 12.5%, 25%, 37.5%, 50% respectively, or even less)
Lets look at two situations - when chassis variants are mostly same tier, and when they are spread across tiers. It is just examples to show system, without accurate balanse.
Example 1 - Thunderbolt

Spoiler

TDR-5S (tier 5)
Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10 (shared for chassis)
Energy weapons heat generation -12.5%
Energy weapons cooldown +12.5%
Missile weapons cooldown +10%
Large missile systems* cooldown +10% (* - LRM15, LRM20)
Missile weapons heat generation -15%

TDR-5SS (tier 5)
Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10 (shared for chassis)
Energy weapons heat generation -10%
Energy weapons cooldown +10%
Small beam weapons* heat generation -15% (* - SL, SPL, ML, MPL)
Small beam weapons cooldown +15%
Laser duration -10%

TDR-9S (tier 5)
Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10 (shared for chassis)
Energy weapons heat generation -15%
Energy weapons cooldown +15%
Large energy weapons* heat generation -10% (* LL, ER LL, LPL, PPC, ER PPC)
Large energy weapons cooldown +10%
Small missile systems* cooldown +10% (* - SRM2, SRM4, SRM6, SSRM2, LRM5, LRM10)

TDR-9SE (tier 4)
Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10 (shared for chassis)
Additional structure (LL&RL) +5
Energy weapons heat generation -10%
Energy weapons cooldown +10%
Missile weapons cooldown +10%
Missile weapons heat generation -10%

Example 2 - Raven

Spoiler

RVN-3L (tier 2)
Additional structure (LL&RL) +4 (shared for chassis)
Sensors range +10%
Missile weapon cooldown +10%
Missile weapons heat generation -10%

RVN-4X (tier 4)
Additional structure (LL&RL) +4 (shared for chassis)
Turn rate +10%
Missile weapon cooldown +10%
Energy weapon cooldown +7.5%
Small beam weapons cooldown +7.5%
Energy weapon heat generation -10%

RVN-2X (tier 5)
Additional structure (LL&RL) +4 (shared for chassis)
Additional armor (LA) +10
Energy weapons heat generation -20%
Energy weapons cooldown +20%
Laser duration -10%

RVN-H (tier 5)
Additional structure (LL&RL) +4 (shared for chassis)
Turn rate +10%
Missile weapon cooldown +10%
Missile weapons heat generation -10%
Small missile systems cooldown +10%
Small missile systems heat generation -10%
Small caliber ballistic weapons* cooldown +10% (* - MG, AC/2. for MGs it means 10% faster rate of fire, since they havent CD)

I believe such quirk system without specific weapon boosts is better, as compromise between boosting unpopular/noncompetative mechs and applying some role specialisations without restricting loadouts diversity.

Edited by Sigmar Sich, 27 November 2014 - 09:41 AM.

[101011]

Hate to break this to you, but prior to the quirkening EVERY Thud 9SS build was extinct.

[Prussian Havoc]

101011, on 25 November 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

Hate to break this to you, but prior to the quirkening EVERY Thud 9SS build was extinct.

Yeah, at least now we have one viable build for the T-bolt5SS

[Sigmar Sich]

Quirkening is needed, nobody argues about it. Point was - it could be better, for mechs didnt stuck with one or two specific weapons.

For example, lets look what Thunderbolt quirks could be.
It already have additional structure for LT and RT, its ok. It have massive legs, so it can use additional structure to them too, or maybe additional armor because of extra plating. All TDRs already are agile, with good acceleration and deceleration, and turning, its good. All TDRs could use quirk for major missile weapon cooling, because it is placed in external component (barrel on shoulder. Though for 5S and 9SE its hard to explain if second missile weapon is installed, its internal, in torso. Would be nice to apply quirk only to first weapon, in that shoulder tube, but lets not overcomplicate things). It could provide heat-efficient secondary weapon.
Now individual quirks.
5SS have most energy hardpoints, and less other types. Lets say construction allows improved cooling for compact energy weapons, and less improved for big energy weapons.
5S have most summary missile tubes, lets say construction have improved ammo conveyors, but sacrificing a bit energy weapons cooling.
9S very similar to 5SS, but can use two AMS, and MGs, though have 1 less energy hardpoint. Lets say it is good enough to have a bit minor improvements for energy weapons. (btw, both 5SS and 9S have very nice RT hardpoints, good line of fire)
9SE construction may have both benefits for missiles and energy, plus it can jump, thats benefit enough, and could cause hardened legs structure.


So, TDR quirks could be like this:
5S
Additional structure LT&RT +10
Additional armor LL&RL +8
Missile weapon heat generation -30%
Missile weapon cooldown +20%
Energy weapon heat generation -10%
Energy weapon cooldown +5%

5SS
Additional structure LT&RT +10
Additional armor LL&RL +8
Energy weapon heat generation -15%
Compact beam weapons* heat generation -25%
Energy weapon cooldown +12.5%
Missile weapon heat generation -30%

9S
Additional structure LT&RT +10
Additional armor LL&RL +8
Energy weapon heat generation -15%
Beam weapon** heat generation -10%
Energy weapon cooldown +7.5%
Missile weapon heat generation -30%

9SE
Additional structure LT&RT +10
Additional armor LL&RL +8
Additional structure LL&RL +10
Missile weapon heat generation -30%
Missile weapon cooldown +10%
Energy weapon heat generation -15%
Energy weapon cooldown +7.5%

----------------------------------------------------
* - SL, SPL, ML, MPL.
** - all lasers.

Something like that, all numbers are just for example. This way we have more or less diverse TDRs (and between chassis in serie, and different boosted loadout styles) with some boost to be competitive. (again, numbers just for example). And this way avoids "magic" boosts for specific weapons (for TDR-5SS - MPL - which even wasnt present in any of default loadouts for all ingame TDRs ).

Edited by Sigmar Sich, 25 November 2014 - 10:58 PM.

[Firewuff]

You are aware that there are generic quirks like you are talking about. Also in the tt weapons had variations with these type of bonuses from different manufacturers. Easy explaination is specalised weapons built specifically for these mechs.... i think it works well. My mets is still using erllas and uac5. He gets some bonuses but not the same as ac10s and med las. Its not my play style so i sacrifice a bit for some thing im more comfortable in

[The Massive]

Shoosh. The quirks are excellent and are actually promoting diversity.

I'd say someone didn't get 'their build' specifically buffed.

[Sigmar Sich]

Quote

Also in the tt weapons had variations with these type of bonuses from different manufacturers. Easy explaination is specalised weapons built specifically for these mechs.... i think it works well.

Btw, different weapon manufacturers was planned to be in game. Not soon, of course, if ever... Though I dont think it would interfere with weapon quirks, but i believe better to keep mech and weapon stats (velocity, range) separately. Why? Because weapon quirks encouraging to use similar loadouts on particular model, its not fun when all are clones. Thats why i suggesting to use more general quirks, quirks for weapon group types, but not for specific weapon.
P.S. I would welcome it, if weapon quirks was about default loadouts, it could be good encouragement to use lore roles for mechs, but sometimes quirks are about weapons which was never used on chassis...

Quote

Shoosh. The quirks are excellent and are actually promoting diversity.
I'd say someone didn't get 'their build' specifically buffed.

I disagree, though overall quirks returning to life some unpopular models (it is good), specialised weapon quirks promoting similar meta loadouts for them, killing builds diversity (it is bad). My suggestion was about how to achieve good goal without bad part.
And no, i dont pursue "my build" benefits, i like Battletech and i care for the game's future, so i trying to discuss subject which i feel as wrong turn.
P.S. I'd say someone love his new toys too much, to seriously discuss them.

[Sigmar Sich]

Here is more accurate example of what reworked quirks could look like, using mech's tier tables
Lets say tier 1 gets only shared chassis quirks (like additional armor or structure because of construction), and next tiers get 15%, 30%, 45% and 60% summary bonuses respectively (example - tier 2 gets 30% summary bonus - it could be or {-30% energy heat generation}, or {-10% ballistic cooldown, plus -12.5% energy heat generation, plus -7.5% heat generation for large beam weapons}) (or if it is too much, lets reduce bonuses to 12.5%, 25%, 37.5%, 50% respectively, or even less)
Lets look at two situations - when chassis variants are mostly same tier, and when they are spread across tiers. It is just examples to show system, without accurate balanse.
Example 1 - Thunderbolt

Spoiler

TDR-5S (tier 5)
Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10 (shared for chassis)
Energy weapons heat generation -12.5%
Energy weapons cooldown +12.5%
Missile weapons cooldown +10%
Large missile systems* cooldown +10% (* - LRM15, LRM20)
Missile weapons heat generation -15%

TDR-5SS (tier 5)
Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10 (shared for chassis)
Energy weapons heat generation -10%
Energy weapons cooldown +10%
Small beam weapons* heat generation -15% (* - SL, SPL, ML, MPL)
Small beam weapons cooldown +15%
Laser duration -10%

TDR-9S (tier 5)
Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10 (shared for chassis)
Energy weapons heat generation -15%
Energy weapons cooldown +15%
Large energy weapons* heat generation -10% (* LL, ER LL, LPL, PPC, ER PPC)
Large energy weapons cooldown +10%
Small missile systems* cooldown +10% (* - SRM2, SRM4, SRM6, SSRM2, LRM5, LRM10)

TDR-9SE (tier 4)
Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10 (shared for chassis)
Additional structure (LL&RL) +5
Energy weapons heat generation -10%
Energy weapons cooldown +10%
Missile weapons cooldown +10%
Missile weapons heat generation -10%

Example 2 - Raven

Spoiler

RVN-3L (tier 2)
Additional structure (LL&RL) +4 (shared for chassis)
Sensors range +10%
Missile weapon cooldown +10%
Missile weapons heat generation -10%

RVN-4X (tier 4)
Additional structure (LL&RL) +4 (shared for chassis)
Turn rate +10%
Missile weapon cooldown +10%
Energy weapon cooldown +7.5%
Small beam weapons cooldown +7.5%
Energy weapon heat generation -10%

RVN-2X (tier 5)
Additional structure (LL&RL) +4 (shared for chassis)
Additional armor (LA) +10
Energy weapons heat generation -20%
Energy weapons cooldown +20%
Laser duration -10%

RVN-H (tier 5)
Additional structure (LL&RL) +4 (shared for chassis)
Turn rate +10%
Missile weapon cooldown +10%
Missile weapons heat generation -10%
Small missile systems cooldown +10%
Small missile systems heat generation -10%
Small caliber ballistic weapons* cooldown +10% (* - MG, AC/2. for MGs it means 10% faster rate of fire, since they havent CD)

I believe such quirk system without specific weapon boosts is better, as compromise between boosting unpopular/noncompetative mechs and applying some role specialisations without restricting loadouts diversity.

Thoughts?

Edited by Sigmar Sich, 27 November 2014 - 09:42 AM.