56 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Lumicko, on 26 December 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Well I Dont get destroyed because they destroy my left / right torso.. So I dont think that XL engine is problem... Also they never destroy my RIght arm ( where are the lasers ).. They just always shoot into MY FRONT CENTRAL TORSO... And destroy it really quickly like after 1-3 hits its critical / deep yellow color.. Thats really annoying


I often just shoot mechs which are occupied with other mechs and somehow they always turn on me when I shoot and shoot me.. Well I guess just bad timing.. But overall im just annyoed because my CENTRAL TORSO is so weak and cant withstand much even with full armor.... I dont really have problem with heat when using those 4x LP lasers... The speed is also quite annoying but I cant afford getting bigger engine at the cost of 1 laser... Having 3 lasers just seem weak to me would be much lower dmg.

Just saw one KING CRAB withstand fire from 3+ mechs for like 20+secs... Just insane... damn... And Their speed is around mine... 50-70..Which isnt such big difference so I dont think we can say that they have disadvantage of mobility... And they have much bigger firepower + armor

What you're describing is a combination of two things - massive quantities of incoming blam, and a lack of torso twisting on your part. Your build discourages you from twisting, because you're looking at the target much of the time and firing your two pulse laser groups. Many 'mechs are able to support builds with high damage, either frontloaded like an AC/40 Jaeger, or more damage-over-time - like your Wubverine. Those kinds of builds, particularly in Clan Assaults, can deal amazing damage very quickly, and simply being in their line of fire with a Medium chassis is extremely painful.

As for your build, firepower v. heat v. speed is always going to be a tradeoff. You can sacrifice some firepower to go faster, or you can learn to deal with the speed. 70kph isn't that bad, if you stick with the group and support Assaults, which are (usually) slower than you are.

Speaking of which, you're way off base with the King Crab. The most the chassis can manage is 64.2 kph; most builds are going to be going around 53kph with speed tweak - which many people do not have yet - because of the balance between space, tonnage, and weapon hardpoints. Plus, the King Crab has the slowest movement profile in the game, while the Wolverine should be two steps down from that. The upshot of it is that while the king crab is moving at about 2/3rds the speed of your "slow" Medium, it's also starting, stopping, and turning at a slower rate compared to its proportional engine rating than you are. The differences are extreme. The King Crab also has extra durability on its arms, plus a lot of armor and a wierd profile. If its attackers are not coordinating and picking their shots, they can pound on it a lot without killing it - I know, I've been the crab. Focused fire, particularly from frontloaded builds like Gausscats and Boomjaegers, can still take me down fairly quickly.

[Lumicko]

AaronWolf thx for the Hull Down maneuver... I will use it when I can. And ofc thank to everyone else who is helping me...


I often have 10+- armor at the back.
Yeah I think I Dont really Twist my torso... I dont really know how to do it? You look away from your enemy?? But doesnt he then shoot you into your weak back armor?

Also can I get recommendations for some best builds for Gauss or ballistic builds? Would like to try this one also later.
Thank you all

Edited by Lumicko, 27 December 2014 - 01:08 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Lumicko, on 27 December 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

AaronWolf thx for the Hull Down maneuver... I will use it when I can. And ofc thank to everyone else who is helping me...


I often have 10+- armor at the back.
Yeah I think I Dont really Twist my torso... I dont really know how to do it? You look away from your enemy?? But doesnt he then shoot you into your weak back armor?

Also can I get recommendations for some best builds for Gauss or ballistic builds? Would like to try this one also later.
Thank you all

the idea is to spread the damage to the arms and side torsos, most Mechs have around 90 degrees of torso twist so you will not be showing them your back, just your side.

the way to do it is fire then twist off to one side, then when your weapons are almost ready twist back to fire again then twist to the other side. some Mechs (like the Griffin, one of my favorites) have a most of their hardpoints on one side, with those the idea is to sacrifice the side without weapons to protect your center torso and weapons, so you would keep putting your unarmed side towards the enemy.

[Tim East]

LPL-boat is really more of a skirmisher than a sniper anyway. Wait for the enemy to get engaged, pop out and zap them until it looks like you are going to take return fire or overheat, and disengage. Lasers aren't really my preferred sniping weapon, because as mentioned above, they tend to spread damage all over the place unless you are right up in someone's teeth, and sometimes even then.

For the same tonnage, you can get PPCs for mid-range sniping, or ERPPCs for any range shooting, though the ER's will heat you up really fast.

I kind of like the gauss for sniping, since the mechanic was a cinch to get used to. Way easier than a lot of people complain about. It's not like I didn't use the bombast laser in MW4...

[Saiphas Cain]

Indeed, this is the same concept with the Atlas, which has huge shoulders and arms that really shield the torsos well. People tend to focus on the right torso with the AC/20 in it so I'll turn to expose the left shoulder between alpha strikes. 4 second reload gives plenty of time.

[Void Angel]

Lumicko, on 27 December 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

AaronWolf thx for the Hull Down maneuver... I will use it when I can. And ofc thank to everyone else who is helping me...


I often have 10+- armor at the back.
Yeah I think I Dont really Twist my torso... I dont really know how to do it? You look away from your enemy?? But doesnt he then shoot you into your weak back armor?

That depends on how you twist. A few chassis can indeed twist enough to allow shots at their back armor; the Griffin, many lilghts, and the "Scary Owl" twist range of the Catapult A1 and C4 variants all come to mind. However, as Rogue Jedi pointed out, the idea is to twist only far enough to interpose your arms and side torsos between your enemy and your CT/offside torsos.

PS: the Atlas' arms and shoulders are actually a weakness of the chassis. Those big shoulders aren't in anyone's way unless the shooter is significantly higher than the Atlas - most incoming fire comes in above the forearms, and below the shoulders. So while they will absorb some damage, I almost never manage to lose an arm before I lose its associated side torso. I would be overjoyed if they simply enlarged the cross-section of the arms from the side - the Atlas needs to work out.

The Thunderbolt, on the other hand, is the poster child for torso-twist damage spreading. With bulky, block-like components, the Thunderbolt can easily interpose its arms and side torsos to intercept incoming fire, and is the toughest thing in its weight class - unless they just leg you, which is par for the course in CW. =)

[Alaskan Nobody]

Lumicko, on 27 December 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

Yeah I think I Dont really Twist my torso... I dont really know how to do it? You look away from your enemy?? But doesnt he then shoot you into your weak back armor?

Send me a friend invite in game and I can help give you a practical demonstration on that.
(One of the few things I can consistently do to help out)

Void Angel, on 27 December 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

The Thunderbolt, on the other hand, is the poster child for torso-twist damage spreading. With bulky, block-like components, the Thunderbolt can easily interpose its arms and side torsos to intercept incoming fire, and is the toughest thing in its weight class - unless they just leg you, which is par for the course in CW. =)

Or the Banshee
Thing's arms are the size of most Medium mechs.

[The Dancing Joker]

Lumicko, on 24 December 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

So IM using Wolverine Medium mech. Im actually pretty much sniping with my Pulse Lasers... And I feel like paper.. I get hit a few times ( not always close range but also from other mechs / snipers..) and im almost critical damaged / destroyed... And others appear to me that they withstand muuuch more than me and I dont get why... I just feel like paper and they are like rocks.... My armor is almost everywhere on max.
Whats the point of medium mech if its such paper and cant even load that much weapons??? Is Heavy / assault superior to all??

Long long ago with the Mechwarrior[battletech] board game. I added up all armor boxes available for each 'mech weight, minus the head which all 'mechs can mount the same armor. Lo' and behold, not all 'mechs are created the same. Most 'mechs 20-60 can mount 6.4 points of armor per ton of 'mech.

ex. 60 ton 'mech 60 * 6.4 = 384 + 18 [for head] = 402

However for 'mech weights 65 - 100 it drops off.



ex. 100 ton 'mech max 614 - 18 = 596 / 100 = 5.96 armor per 'mech ton.

In truth Lights and Mediums are, for the most part, better armored than Heavies and Assaults.

Edit: Quirks will skew the non-visable armor/structure limits

Edited by Scrap Catastrophe, 27 December 2014 - 04:09 PM.

[Lumicko]

SharWolf do u use the same name in MechWarrior?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Forum account and game account are linked for all players - so yes

[Lumicko]

Added

Damn annoying.... Lasted 7+- in battle and did only 300-500 dmg... Not satisfied with that at all... For that long I would atleast expect 750+

[Alaskan Nobody]

100 damage a minute?

You would have to really work your mech to get that I think - not to mention be crazy lucky (or unlucky)

Most mechs die in 100 or less damage - despite their armor totals

IE: the Locust has ~100 armor MAX (and ~50 internal structure)
Using the damage transfer mechanics it is cabable of surviving ~300 damage.
However - it tends to die in 20 (or less!) damage.

EVERY mech can die in 33 points of damage (headshot)

Similar ratios apply to the other chassis as well (and by extension to your own survival)

Now - damage tends to spread quite a bit in the heat of battle (and headshots are rare at best) so ~300 (or more) damage for any length of survival is pretty good
Massive numbers tend to be more a sign of either bad aim on your part or causing ammo explosions

[Void Angel]

A lot of the damage in high-damage matches will be from ammunition explosions and the like - I suspect, but have not confirmed, that when you destroy an arm by smashing the associated side torso, you get the damage from that arm as well. It's never been important enough for me to test, but it's my working hypothesis. Matches where I've gotten a lot of torso destruction (I never shoot at arms, generally) have also netted me high damage, while games where I felt I'd connected with a lot more weapons fire but didn't get any components tended to be lower damage.

In any case, surviving while remaining in combat is by far the most important thing for you, so if you lasted 7 minutes fighting, you should be pleased. Higher damage and kills come from practice, and it's hard to practice when you're dead.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Void Angel, on 30 December 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

A lot of the damage in high-damage matches will be from ammunition explosions and the like - I suspect, but have not confirmed, that when you destroy an arm by smashing the associated side torso, you get the damage from that arm as well.

I have not specifically tested it - but running 1v1 Locust duels the other day I took someone out by side torso - and ended with a score of ~20 damage, so I kinda doubt it.

It would take a minimum of 11 for me to have taken his side off (as he had some rear armor) + 18 for his arm
(Assuming full armor)....


Actually it may very well - I'm gonna have to manually test that out.
Edit: Anyone want to volunteer to help out with that?

Edited by Shar Wolf, 30 December 2014 - 10:07 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

The question was - if you blow a torso off (with an arm still attached) do you get points for the arm as well?

Experiment: Locust has 10 internal structure in the sides (+18 armor+internal structure in the arm) - shoot it with an AC10 and if you score ~20 it counted the arm as well (as a critical would not likely throw your damage that far)

Spoiler

Gwilly stripped all the armor off his left side (had the XL mounted already)
I loaded up an AC10 to my BJ-1 and went to work.
Lux killed me afterward to make sure it was just the damage I did to Gwilliy on the board.

Pre-Firing



Post-Firing

Note: One shot fired


Scoreboard




Conclusion:
While possible the excess was from a critical - that seems unlikely with such an odd number....

Not sure where the extra 4 points came from (10 for the side, 18 for the arm... 4 from...?) so I could very well be wrong on that as the critical mechanics make my head hurt.

Extra thanks to Gwilliy and Lux for helping with that, as well as Rogue Jedi for volunteering!
(Sorry Rogue - maybe next time. )

Edited by Shar Wolf, 31 December 2014 - 05:00 PM.

[Void Angel]

Each critical hit deals 15% of the weapon's critical damage to the affected location. So if you got a 3-crit from that AC/10, you'd be dealing 4.5 damage; if it rounds down, there's your extra. Extra damage from crits is easy to figure out, unless you're using a crit-seeking weapon.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Might be because of how tired I am right now - but very little of that made sense.
(I really need to stop trying to think about the crit system when tired one of these days.)

Edit:
Next morning and it makes a fair bit more sense.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 01 January 2015 - 04:09 PM.