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Kaspar Hauser´s Revenge Killing Cw And Mwo Alike


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#1 Cyborx

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 07:39 AM

Let´s have a closer look at CW gameplay , behaviour of players , use of basic tactics, emotional aftermath of a CW match, CW´s influence on the so called " competitive scene",
let me start with CW experience summary. I experienced a lot of stale gameplay, because it´s always the same stuff happening in a CW match. You can expect one of the following gameplays in a CW match:
1) team A smashes B. In attack mode it leads to a quick win or a senseless farming party for attackers - it´s attackers choice what happens. Superiour defenders must either watch the closed gates for 30 minutes or jump the gates and farm the attackers´ spawn for horrible 20 minutes. (wasn´t the match already decided after 3 minutes? Why this useless slaughtering)
2)PUG-matches: HORRIBLE GAMEPLAY! 24 more or less bloddy rookies celebrate a tie at closed gates and enjoy firing missiles over a closed gate for 30 minutes (very impressive).Second option is brainless "zerg-rushing" with more or less success.This is called a GG then, because many mechs got wrecked ("mummy: did you see this - so cooOOOOl").Third option: one high-ELO players acts as a one-man-army, doing 20 kills,3000+ dmg and decides the game solo. On sulfur it still can be a loss because some guard omega by simply watching it and calling it scouting when their dot on the map disappears after a "4 man rush in assaults" (lol) reached the middle of the base unnoticed.( yeah - this tactical depth is so stunning!)
Let´s talk about individual skill in CW matches: worse than public queue! Torso twisting feels like gaining advantage by hacking, using a cool-down module is hacking too: "cos nobody can alpha strike like that without hacking!" ( i really heard that BS with fingers pointing at my team).About tactical understanding, example: Fight at only opened gate going on; six attackers die; conclusion: there can´t be more than 6 other attackers still in front of the gate; but performing a 12 vs 6 counter-push that wrecks enemies is not happening. Only option is herd leading: two players with brain call for counterattack and lead the charge - they will most likely die in 6 vs 2 fight until defenders dripple in; final result: gate safe ,12vs 10 kills.Rookies cheer:"well done -awesome", but it was purely an aweful performane.WTF! There´s still a huge list of basic tactical understanding and basic skill issues missing, but the list is too long...i´ll stop here.
All these issues lead into a lot of bad feelings in many important players (YES: everyone is important! the masses just like the HIGH-ELO players). They are all customers. Bad players enjoy longer fights vs PUGs but get too often kind of desillusioned/angry/depressed... for being stomped on regular basis, good players are bored as .... without competition. Please community, dont get me wrong. The whole player base´s mainly bad performance is not the community´s fault- although it´s the community playing this game.
I AM POINTING MY FINGER INTO THE FACE OF PGI !
And now it´s time to include the headline. Kaspar Hauser spent his first 16 years of existence in a dark chamber, fed with only bread n water, no one ever tought him anything, no one ever had a conversation with him. When he finally was allowed to leave his chamber of isolation and darkness, the people considered him being ********, lacking any kind of skill and basic education like even talking or the ability to walk. It was all but Kaspar´s fault that people considered him that way. It was MOM´s and DAD´s fault! Teaching basics is their job! ...back to MWO...
To PGI: Your "competitive" universe of Community Warfare is crowded by bloody rookies, solo-rambos, kiddies and whatever you like to describe them.They are charging gates in trial XL-stalkers with LRMs,firing unlocked LRMs in minimum range while bravely fighting 1 vs 6... No one ever tought the vast majority of the community how to torso twist properly, how to aim at weak components, how to walk and get a position to fight 4 vs 1 and roll opponents... You might wonder why CW is kind of a fail - i know why: You threw rookies and pros alike into the same pot without teaching them anything ,without offering lessons, without emotional benefits for performing good, without preparation or organising.You,PGI simply didn´t offer a school of warfare that emotionally benefits improvement step by step. You locked the players into a dark chamber with a conveyer belt that destroys mechs, cos all the gamemodes were always the same. There was never an honest feedback on performance. It was even possible to optimize income by suicide farming, to win "world championship tournaments" by LRM boating (huge grind included)...
YOU NEVER GAVE THEM THE PROPER PLAYGROUND FOR FIGHTING LESSONS - AN ARENA WITH RATINGS, TRUE PRICES, EMOTIONAL BENEFITS, HONORABLE CHAMPIONSHIPS, OFFICIAL TUTORIALS PRODUCED BY PROS...
It could have been so easy to raise a competitive community that was able to crowd community warfare by developing the right tools for it without wasting so much time in superficial stuff like new mechs, new maps and useless stuff that reduces your field of view...
If only you (PGI)had started with a simple arena environment with some really different and challenging modes and with an ingame rating,and leagues, and true tournaments, and true substantial emotional feedback,then CW would have had chances to work... This would have been the right order of development for ingame content/ game-modules:
1)start with cage fight bashing - successful
2)implement arena and ingame ratings (your stats are horrible, because useless and not visible)
And i mean real ratings based on usefull stats like damadge per kill, damadge per component destruction, average health in % before receiving the killing blow (damadge spreading skill)... not such BS like KDR that is affected by teammates , solo or group, friendly fire, ecm-only-player, hiding cowards and game prolonging . You know, simply some REAL stats! Finally some arena achievements- 5x1st price ...bla bla bla.
Organise it in leagues and lock bloody rookies like this:
achievement " league/tournament access" - play 100 hours and win X public games with at least 3rd best player stats.
achievement "CW access" - join a unit and win 100 games with a 4man-lance of teammates
make it e.g. 5 leagues: one star players to five star players. And any star league must offer MC prices, even if it´s only 10 MC for " one star tournaments " once a week and 50 for "five star tournament" winners once a week. Include a public access spectator module like in so many other successful games - you already own that toy!And finally, give them something highly emotional as price for winning a GRAND FINAL TOURNAMENT with winners only and real salvage and losses (real Hardcore mode only once a month). There are hundreds of miles between me and my ts3-pals but i see their eyes shining when i talk about this: Win this final / a hardcore tournament and fight for the chance to own this, publicly visible on your MWO-forum profile ( they know that they will lose 20 c-bill mechs before having the lucky day, but they all are itching for this) :
[LORD]Proton´s Gladiator
salvadged in the glorious Solaris final grand championship december 3050
Motivate your scholars by giving access to something that will make them proud forever- like tournament winner skins, really unique stuff, personalized stuff like a players´salvadged mech. So many would start working,training hard for this. Another thing: " do you,PGI, think that NGNG TV would still lurk around with 300 viewers only if spectators could watch a real world championship?!?!" You forgot to make your players and high-quality gameplay your best advertisment! Besides: Does everyone know a popular sport without stats and leagues or tournaments??
And so many more disciplines could be implemented easily, divided in star-leagues to let everyone participate and win sth at his skill level:
- free for all : 24 start - one survives
-Wingman / 12x two brothers in arms
-6 lances vs each other: clan-rivalry
-12 vs 12 officially
-"protect the commanders´mech - mode" / win without losing it with whatever objective.
-Infiltration / reach an easily capable point with only one of your team´s mechs (scouting& baiting-teamwork / community either forgot those skills or lost it)
These kinds of gamemodes would offer a sandbox for guided learning, raise MWO´s popularity and population, offer emotional benefits that bind your customers and make them proud of participating ,make them love MWO instead of only grinding it. Turn them into real BattleTech fans! ( Give us some charm and hire George Ledoux again!)
Since this stuff or something euqivalent is still missing since three years, i forecast a gloomy future for MWO and BT in general.CW IMO failed because your work hasn´t met the requirements for competition itself. Finally i have to admit i´ve still got some hope inside me:
"MWO is the most shiny, most detailed, and best BattleTech simulator that was ever developed! I´m just sad to state that the monotone gameplay of cage-fight-bashing and lack of challenge makes it the 2nd-worst gameplay experience of all times in BT history!"
I know it sounds super hard. But PGI is this game´s mum ´n´dad and they must know that the community deserves teaching and a sandbox and some candy for doing-well. It´s their true responsibility! Teach the community! or all those Kaspar Hausers will be the only ones left in MWO.
LORD CYBORX
GGclose(d soon ???)

#2 Kirkland Langue

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 07:50 AM

Hit the edit key and try again.

or


Wow.


Take your pick.

#3 GonaDie

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 07:52 AM

Sorry, but I just can't read this wall of text.Could you please tell me what was your point?

#4 Dracol

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 07:56 AM

View PostGonaDie, on 31 December 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

Sorry, but I just can't read this wall of text.Could you please tell me what was your point?

I think his point is "CW is poor due to the fact anyone and their mother can participate in it."

#5 AlmightyAeng

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 07:59 AM

No, his point is that CW is producing poor games because players haven't been coached by the game system itself on how to actually BE good - in addition to having an easy win mechanic that still encourages abusing hitreg and ignoring mech fights. *shrug*

#6 Blacksoul1987

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 08:16 AM

I have ADD and still read whole thing couldn't agree more too bad can't like it more than once.

#7 Dracol

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 08:18 AM

View PostGhost Badger, on 31 December 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

No, his point is that CW is producing poor games because players haven't been coached by the game system itself on how to actually BE good - in addition to having an easy win mechanic that still encourages abusing hitreg and ignoring mech fights. *shrug*

ah, ya, looking it over again, ya I think you got it. MWO not having the best means to teach new players more intermediary skills has been an issue since beta. Gotta agree with that point.

#8 BlakeAteIt

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 08:20 AM

View PostGhost Badger, on 31 December 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

No, his point is that CW is producing poor games because players haven't been coached by the game system itself on how to actually BE good - in addition to having an easy win mechanic that still encourages abusing hitreg and ignoring mech fights. *shrug*


That does seem to be what he said.

#9 Cyborx

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 08:20 AM

View PostGhost Badger, on 31 December 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

No, his point is that CW is producing poor games because players haven't been coached by the game system itself on how to actually BE good - in addition to having an easy win mechanic that still encourages abusing hitreg and ignoring mech fights. *shrug*


You got it! The whole environment of MWO is about benefits for being mediocre(or no benfits at all for anything). Nothing else is supported with a little bit of candy. In other words this game breeds aweful players due to the lack of challenge, guidance and a lack of emotional benefit. MWO doesn´t motivate anyone to improve skill or to put some effort into his own performance. It´s a simple cold hearted grind!

Edited by Cyborx, 31 December 2014 - 08:29 AM.


#10 Yokaiko

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 08:32 AM

drunk post detected.

#11 Gorgo7

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 08:44 AM

Too much to read, please summarize.

#12 Alistair Winter

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 08:46 AM

Fixed it for you.
Spoiler

Edited by Alistair Winter, 31 December 2014 - 08:47 AM.


#13 AlmightyAeng

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 08:47 AM

View PostGorgo7, on 31 December 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Too much to read, please summarize.

Read down about 4 quotes and it is. Jesus.

#14 Basilisk222

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 08:58 AM

I agree, it took me a really long time to learn how to play, and the only way learn? Play matches, and get wrecked.

I don't think it's RUINING CW to the degree you seem to think it is, but I think it's certainly not helping.

The mechs get way too much focus. I'd be fine with like 24 chassis total if we had a ton of maps and modes. But, we have over 100 mechs and like 10 maps (2 for cw but that's new)

A kiddie pool could help, but when you learn from idiots, you learn how to be an idiot. That won't help as much as everyone thinks it will. But It will help basic movement and whatnot. Familiarity with controls. That be about it. Noone's going to go back to the kiddie pool as a veteran and teach newbies how to play. Gaming = fun, not babysitting. So people will get to shake rattles until they can shake rattles better but it doesn't REALLY help with abstract concepts like torso twisting or being able to strike good players with weapons. Sniping at an imbecile is much easier than sniping at someone who knows what they're doing. Kiddie pool people will have skills such as pressing 'w' and shooting vaguely at a target. which is about worthless. It doesn't give them any training.

What needs to be done is a full on training course set, complete with objectives and practicable advice with many modules that can be repeated. Videos and and stand still mech dolls don't help much. There need to be hands on help training modules. basics - moderate - advanced modules.
Basic:
Movement and key bindings
Weapon groups
shooting
differences in weapons
heat
Communication

Medium
Shooting moving targets
moving at shooting
advanced heat management
damage control
loadout tutorials

Advanced
Module explanations
Module usage
advanced damage control
focusing fire
using terrain
fast/slow mech piloting
brawling when outclassed

Stuff like that.

#15 Cyborx

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 09:16 AM

most important is a "commander training" module or lets call it "situational awareness"module.

with most simple stuff like counting enemies and teammates.
Example like above: 12 vs 12 at only open gate - it´s your Teams 12 vs remaining 6 after 6-0 kills.
Immediate commander conclusion: 6 left - Counter push now - it´s 12 vs 6! easy going! "go go go!!!"

2nd example: two direwolf standing in a gap and "guarding" it. Team of 6 Players available for attack.
don´t attack them by stopping in front of them , only because you want to shoot them- you will get wrecked instantly! The whole team simply passes that gap and everyone shoots one or 2 Alpha strikes. Result: 6x2 Alpha strikes times 40 dmg of average Alpha strike power make 480dmg on the direwolfs, enough to take one down and rip the other one´s torso of. Damadge of own team is spread over 6 mechs - nothing serious. That´s the power of movement. Even players that play this game since beta simply don´t own these basics!

it hurts my brain every time i see someone dying when shooting at an enemy through a gap!

Edited by Cyborx, 31 December 2014 - 09:28 AM.


#16 Mystere

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 09:16 AM

View PostCyborx, on 31 December 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

You got it! The whole environment of MWO is about benefits for being mediocre(or no benfits at all for anything). Nothing else is supported with a little bit of candy. In other words this game breeds aweful players due to the lack of challenge, guidance and a lack of emotional benefit. MWO doesn´t motivate anyone to improve skill or to put some effort into his own performance. It´s a simple cold hearted grind!


It's because mediocre people demanded that they be rewarded for their mediocrity, and PGI complied. I cringe every time I see someone complain about how low the c-bills/hour rate is ... while constantly losing.

Or in other words, it's basically this:

Posted Image

#17 Tarogato

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 09:26 AM

I agree with OP.

PGI needs to collaborate with some pro-level players at producing some worthwhile tutorials.
The Wiki could also be used, it's a glorious resource that's nobody's taking advantage of... it just sits in ruins.

PGI created CW with 12-man groups in mind. What we see instead is that the majority of CW seems to be played by solo pugs. The pugs need better training and we need more large units that can actually field 12-man teams.

Edited by Tarogato, 31 December 2014 - 09:27 AM.


#18 Basilisk222

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 09:28 AM

View PostCyborx, on 31 December 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

most important is a "commander training" module or lets call it "situational awareness"module.

with most simple stuff like counting enemies and teammates.
Example like above: 12 vs 12 at only open gate - it´s your Teams 12 vs remaining 6 after 6-0 kills.
Immediate commander conclusion: 6 left - Counter push now - it´s 12 vs 6! easy going! "go go go!!!"

2nd example: two direwolf standing in a gap and "guarding" it. Team of 6 Players available for attack.
don´t attack them by stopping in front of them , only because you want to shoot them- you will get wrecked instantly! The whole team simply passes that gap and everyone shoots one or 2 Alpha strikes. Result: 6x2 Alpha strikes times 40 dmg of average Alpha strike power make 240dmg on each direwolf, enough to take one down and rip the other one´s torso of. Damadge of own team is spread over 6 mechs - nothing serious. That´s the power of movement. Even players that play this game since beta simply don´t own these basics!

it hurts my brain every time i see someone dying when shooting at an enemy through a gap!

Along with that, knowing what he's got to work with.

2 direwolves are there. you have 2 cplt-a1's and a griffin plus a few roundabout heavies in a group of 6. You can take them down easily if the heavies rush forward and LRM's rain down with support.

I've seen so many times when everyone's supposed to rush, but no support orders are given. Keep the support snipers and steel rain towards the back and clear the path while the front force spearheads. Screws defenders They go to the front, they get butchered, they go to the side, they get run over and butchered, they come up the back, the spearhead stays strong and goes in further. Everyone wins. with ecm in the middle, that's a nice recipe for taking down something.

Too often I see support mechs asked to spearhead. it's a waste and bad commandeering.

#19 Basilisk222

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 09:31 AM

View PostMystere, on 31 December 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:


It's because mediocre people demanded that they be rewarded for their mediocrity, and PGI complied. I cringe every time I see someone complain about how low the c-bills/hour rate is ... while constantly losing.

Or in other words, it's basically this:

Posted Image

Well it still isn't quite rewarded properly, actually doing something in conquest actually earns c-bills, you used to only get them for kills. Was stupid. You'd literally win the game by outcapping and you got rewarded with NOTHING for your efforts.

Least it's a little better.

Edited by Kilgorin Strom, 31 December 2014 - 09:32 AM.


#20 Cyborx

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 09:41 AM

View PostKilgorin Strom, on 31 December 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:


Along with that, knowing what he's got to work with.
...
Too often I see support mechs asked to spearhead. it's a waste and bad commandeering.

Simply true, that´s bad leadership. I simply forgot about that, because LRM-usage is kind of useless parasitism when u want make the rules on the battlefield.They are not reliable, you can dodge ´em, avoid lock by ecm, make them loose look with a simple sidestep to cover, you need someone willing to bleed or being unnoticed. Even when everything goes well - they wont help.

In the direwolf-gap example not a single missile would hit it´s target. It would take quite some time until the first missiles are locked and have travelled 500m. the whole tactical maneuver would already be finished and the mechs destroyed before the first missile hits. That´s the main reason why no single GREAT TEAM is using them.
pls simply believe me, LRMs are LOW ELO weapons or sth for Holiday-laid-back-gameplay if you want to relax while playing.

Edited by Cyborx, 31 December 2014 - 09:46 AM.






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