24 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

The first thing that I'm sure people were screaming/wondering about when MWO had surfaced years ago was simply "where was the Madcat?" While that name was the common IS designation for the mech, the Timberwolf is arguably one of the most iconic mechs in EVERY Mechwarrior game.

So, having understood that MWO in the beginning was strictly IS for the most part... it only only take them approximately 2 years (give or take months) to get them released. On the other hand, this occurred probably at a weak time where IS balance was still pretty bad in areas and now only recently finally addressed. However despite all that, the Timberwolf is the arguably best mech (at least for Heavies, IS or otherwise) and it is worth taking an indepth look into them, because they are always the point of content for balance discussions and it is in the best interest to look at what they can and cannot do, with respect to overall balance, particularly Clan.

3 is still the magic number, and those are the sections that will be discussed in question.

1) Omnipods - Jack of all trades, ironically master of them all
2) Field Report - It's good, no really?
3) The Future - Does it need more? - The mech might need to painted red...

1) Omnipods - Doing everything, and yet still nothing at the same time...

If any other mech has this smorgasbord of options, people would be licking their chops more. For the Timberwolf, it's like having an endless supply of your favorite food. You can make it to laservomit, missile boat, or even stuff it with a decent ballistic. Did I forget to mention it can use JJs? That's just the tip of the iceberg, and it's honestly hard to give a fair comparison to other mechs w/o compromising like 3 different things...

1) Speed (although the Dragons and Quickdraws are faster)
2) Firepower/Loadout/Hardpoints (matching them in other chassis is fools errand)
3) Tonnage (despite having a ridiculously sized engine, but benefiting from Endo+Ferro)

Still, if you're a min-maxing demon, you'll also find compromises that have to be made, but knowing this still allows you to do what most other mechs dream of... but let's goto the specifics.

Let's start with the CT, which generally does have variety. In the Timberwolf's case, it is paramount to understand.

Center Torso:
Timberwolf-Prime - 1B
Timberwolf-C - 1E
Timberwolf-S - +1JJ

Due to the use of Ferro AND Endo, the legs head, and to a lesser extent the CT and side torsos are compromised. While that sounds like a drag, the Timberwolf does have options.

The Prime has little value unless you value MGs as it only serves to be filler space.

The Timberwolf-S is probably the variant that has inevitably caused the most controversy, as previous iterations of the MW series have never had to deal with Jump Jets because it wasn't a stock build. For whatever reason, it was decided that it needed to be added AND be added to this game. So, it is what it is. In any case, the variant serves to have that 1 JJ locked in due to omnimech construction rules and at best serves for brief movement and inept for any attempts to poptarting.

The Timberwolf-C is highly coveted for its extra energy hardpoint. Despite it just being one slot, it's still space for fit in another CERMED, which has always been a staple in clan builds and it's hard to argue against its significance.

So, before going into the critical sections of importance, the arms are next up on the list...


Left Arm:
Timberwolf-Prime - 2E
Timberwolf-C - 2E
Timberwolf-S - 1E, +5% arm movement (pitch+yaw)

Timberwolves by nature are energy heavy, and reflect it. If for whatever reason you don't need the extra energy, the S's omnipod is useful here.


Right Arm:
Timberwolf-Prime - 2E
Timberwolf-C - 1B, +5% arm movement (pitch+yaw)
Timberwolf-S - 2E

If you have a need for a large arm ballistic, there's your option with the C omnipod. Note that this is lower than the side torso mounts, but not by much.

The serious business starts here though...


Left Torso:
Timberwolf-Prime - 1E, 1M
Timberwolf-C - 1M, 1AMS
Timberwolf-S - 1B, 2M, +2JJ, -3% torso twist, -2.5% missile cooldown

Regardless of what you want, you'll be carrying a missile hardpoint... so it would be kinda weird to see an Timberwolf w/o its "trademark" missile ears (which will change in the future).

The value of the ballistic hardpoint here in the S omnipod is rather minimized due the state of Clan ballistics. Unless you're hording MGs, the missile hardpoints and indirectly the JJs are why you use this. However, the 2 JJ are "hardlocked" to the omnipod unlike the original omnipod construction rules. This was done in part for "balance", but causes a slight subset of issues that could be directly "corrected" through the release of the Timberwolf-D. This issue will get exacerbated a just a moment...


Right Torso:
Timberwolf-Prime - 1B, 1M
Timberwolf-C - 1M, +10 Torso Twist Radius
Timberwolf-S - 1E, 1B, 2M, +2JJ, -5% torso twist, -2.5% missile cooldown

It almost feels like the C's omnipod is out of place, given the value of the other omnipod options. I guess it's something.

The Prime's omnipod is actually ideal for carrying a big ballistic... except that excludes the CUAC20 and the CLBX20... but it's a "perfect" fit if you wanted Gauss in the right torso. While there are not that many mechs that take advantage of dual Clan Gauss other than the Direwolf, there's still a slight imbalance between that and the IS version... which needs to be looked at someday. I guess you "could" use something like a Clan LBX10, but you'd probably do better in a Summoner (assuming, you like the IS LBX10, which is effectively the same thing). Anyways, the ballistic hardpoint is valuable if you ever needed to run Gauss.

The Timberwolf-S's Right Torso omnipod is probably the most sought after. While the ballistic hardpoint is generally meaningless, the extra energy hardpoint WITH JJs is more than what most people need it for. However, similar to the Left Torso, you are paying for that with some penalties (the list of benefits somewhat outweight the negatives) and I hate to say that there needs a bit more nerfing here because of it.


For just imagining the combinations, it's tempting to go overboard on so many different loadouts, but you'll end up really having to juggle hardpoints, tonnage, and even ammo placement because of it. Even if you wanted to load up on Clan SRMs, you will find that putting ammo in the arms has to be an option, so losing parts of your mech will eventually make you less effective... as it should, and by balancing it like this requires the pilot to be very cognizant of his own build weaknesses.

Most designs favor the right side with all the weapons, and thus makes the left side to be the designated "shield torso". When running a Timberwolf, it is not unrealistic to lose 1 side torso before going down, so if you're getting cored w/o losing a side torso, you are literally doing it wrong.

While I don't entirely believe in strict symmetry (it's only applicable in limited circumstances), it requires you to build it that way to a degree due to losing a section won't always lose 50%-ish (well, more like 40%-ish) of your firepower. That is a very serious consideration in all good Timberwolf builds.

So, how does it fare on the field?


2) Field Report - Sometimes it is a god amongst its peers...

Having built it 3 different ways and watched those fielded in the last "chassis" challenge, it does everything a min-maxer/competitive player wants with minimal regrets as long as they play to their strengths.

However, like all hot builds (and particularly Clan mechs), the best way to counter that is to aggressively push on the Timberwolf. I guess both sides are able to do that, and arguably the side that does it more effectively tends to be the winner... so if you're going to continue to not push against powerful mechs like Timberwolf, you are honestly playing right into their hands.

My original fear of the Timberwolf is that its ears would be a detriment, but it doesn't appear to be the case due to how it is structured, especially with how the missile ears and torso are constructed (most notable with the Timberwolf-S omnipods). The best description of the torsos are that they are "Stalker-like" and that chassis is still holding up (and is still a decent Assault option for the IS). Back the original point... if you are not losing a side torso on your way to your death, you're doing it wrong.

The greatest risk I've found is actually trying to field SRMs (with Artemis) using all 4 missile hardpoints. However, when the team pushes with me, the glaring weakness tends to be minimized... but even then, I almost always expect to lose some ammo along the way. It is what it is.

I've actually tried to run 5 ASRM6s on the Summoner and that's just "too hot" as using the arms strictly to shoot minimizes the Ghost Heat penalty... so the Timberwolf arguably has the "right number".

Fortunately, the best rule of thumb for that is still honestly minimize the facetime you need on your targets/opponents... which honestly applies to all mechs and piloting in general. The "best" SRM build has always been 4 CERMED + 4 ASRM6 (or some variation) and the current combination is just really potent as it is... despite the 4 mandatory JJs from the S omnipods. While I think the D's omnipods should be released ASAP, it is far ahead of the alternatives up to this point... and the closest thing to match it AFAIK is a Stalker... A decent Victor build (ideally brawler, but a poptart is just as good) could certainly compete, but the situation is honestly what it is...

While I guess there's not much more to say (I think), but I guess the question everyone is asking is "does it need a nerf?" I say yes, but going about this is a very difficult task, so that will need some discussion.


3) The Future - How do we make this mech better nerf it properly?

The only future omnipod of consequence is the Timberwolf-A's Left Torso. It contains 3 energy hardpoints and arguably be difficult to balance. I have come up with a few ideas but no solution I'd like to stick to because there will be consequences down the road once new mechs are added...

I have 3 different ideas... they could all be combined, but I have to give both sides of the argument so that it is made clear... at some point a nerf may have to be applied, and one would hope it doesn't turn out like the Victor in a "previous" life.

1) Tie an energy cooldown INCREASE (nerf) PER every energy TORSO hardpoint on the Timberwolf. For instance, having the Timberwolf-C's CT should increase the energy cooldown increase by 3% minimum and at most 5%. This includes the Timberwolf-Prime's Left Torso AND the Timberwolf-S's Right Torso omnipod. For if and/or when the Timberwolf-A's Left Torso arrives (with a 10 to 15% minimum cooldown increase), it can be properly balanced, since you WANT the player to rely on their energy arms instead of the energy torsos (allowing it to laservomit more once the arms are removed). If you want those torso energy hardpoints, the price for that has to be paid.

The only "buff" resulting from that should actually be the lone Timberwolf-S's Left Arm, where a 3% energy cooldown REDUCTION should be balanced.

2) I've thought long and hard on this, but a laser duration INCREASE may be needed on those same torso hardpoints. Increasing them by 5% per Energy hardpoint in the torso would be necessary. Increasing the duration indirectly lowers the TTK because of the facetime involved. Increasing the duration by even 1 tenth of a second does can change opinions of a laser at times (Does anyone want to go back the the 2 second CERLL days? I don't). This would make the chassis less desirable, but it's hard to know until it goes through.

I would like to say that the #2 option should only be used AS A LAST RESORT. It is certainly not my first choice as it makes for very difficult conversations.

3) The missile cooldown nerf may need to increase... at least double from what it is now (-2.5% missile cooldown per S side torso). The problem is that the Summoner is a decent missile boat, but suffers from tonnage and lack of energy hardpoints... which the Timberwolf has plenty of. I don't honestly know the impact of having a large missile rack on the Summoner's arms (perhaps someone that is willing to share some data on that would be greatly appreciated), but leaving it situated with a mech that has 4 missile hardpoints AND can also field at least 2 energy hardpoints to go with that (up to 6E really)... that's a lot.

While it could be argued that it suffers from tonnage+crits, you're getting a lot in return compared to the alternatives like the Summoner or even Stormcrow. I would certainly recommend the release of the Timberwolf-D side torso omnipods to rectify a few things (the hardlocked JJs for one), but the missile cooldown nerf has to increase unless competing solutions finally get the level of energy support that the IS Stalker would be able to bring (the Awesome-8R is a poor facsimile IMO).

While I know the arguments will rage on, the Timberwolf excels far beyond the existing options due to the current levels of balance... that doesn't favor Clan ballistics outside of Gauss. It knows how to use lasers and then some until ERPPCs are fired at a respectable speed. The new "Timbersplat" is not matchable to alternative options yet also has its own set of risks.

To say the Timberwolf is balanced is silly... and if were the case... everything else really does suck. Something has to give and the Timberwolf needs a nerf. I'm sure there will be a future mech or balance buff that may make the Timberwolf irrelevant, but that's unlikely given the wealth of hardpoints.

The best way to describe the Timberwolf is "a guilty pleasure". It you can't recognize it, I can't help you. While it is not "totally" easy mode (although I've considered yelling it in coms, but I haven't bothered using them after mastering them)... good players can make that deficiency go away with timing and practice... none of which are automatically guaranteed when using this mech.

Like the signal to noise ratio about the Timberwolf's prominence... the question remains...

If a Timberwolf falls in a f Forest Colony, does it make a sound?

The mech is not invincible... the people who are afraid of it make it so.

[Wintersdark]

Preface: I'm not arguing the Timberwolf isn't OP right here.

I am somewhat reluctant, though. I'd like to see a couple issues addressed before anything beyond very mild nerfs are implemented:

1) If a Clan XL engine nerf is on the table (slower with ST loss), that definitely needs to happen first.
2) The Orion needs buffs. The Timberwolf gets compared with lighter heavies frequently, which isn't entirely fair, and then its 75t brother IS side is decidedly unimpressive.

The timberwolf needs nerfs. But by god, please, just little baby steps. I'm still traumatized by what happened to the Victor.

[Lily from animove]

Wintersdark, on 09 January 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

Preface: I'm not arguing the Timberwolf isn't OP right here.

I am somewhat reluctant, though. I'd like to see a couple issues addressed before anything beyond very mild nerfs are implemented:

1) If a Clan XL engine nerf is on the table (slower with ST loss), that definitely needs to happen first.
2) The Orion needs buffs. The Timberwolf gets compared with lighter heavies frequently, which isn't entirely fair, and then its 75t brother IS side is decidedly unimpressive.

The timberwolf needs nerfs. But by god, please, just little baby steps. I'm still traumatized by what happened to the Victor.

the issue is if they nerf clan XL's this makes the bad clanmehcs even more bad, It needs to stop nerfing all clanners because of 3 chassis being borderline OP because this drags the other deeper in the abyss of uselessness.

tbr can get some easy debufffs 10% less acceleration, deceleration
10% less torso twist rate.

the issue is, the tbr can most things just better.

HBR has its main weaponary in the torso, but this is a not so agile part, when for example on terra therma or alpine your opponent is on the hills and you have to attack upwards, you can not shoot at them, that requires arm angle, and here the TBR has in the typical laservomit build 4 available, the HBR only 2.

further more, the TBR is strangely also the clanmech when removing the lrm ears, that suddenly has the lowest profile to expose of all clanheavies to ebe bale to shoot. another advantage that takes it above th other mechs.

and yes the TBR is compared with lighter heavies, and it IS FAIR, why? well normally lighter mechs are differne,t becase they have more speed. but right now, the TBR does not have any dwnside compard to lighter heavies. same agility, same speed, better armor, more weaponspace. outclassing at just any characteristic. even optional JJ's by having omnipods without, while most others have fixed JJ's on all pods (isn't that nice, again, randomly, the TBR having the joice and advantage).
Then the timberwolf is on top of that even outclassing the Gargoyle, because the Gargoyle sacrifices lots of tonnage for the engine, but unlike the TBR which comapred to lighter heavies did so too, the GAR does not have more weaponspace, it has less. the The TBR also does not have the heavy mech movement archtype. So the 5tons heavier GARG has a movement disadvantage while even the 15ton heavier TBR (compared ot the MDD) does not have any movement disadvantages. And the GAR has even less profitable hardpoints and locations + hitboxes. And hey the TBR can even remove those ears hahaha, great isn't it?.

it is strange how the TBR just unites all the tiny advantages making him at all the mech being a big bunch superior because of that.

why the Orion is not impressive? well crappy hardpoint locations, and not the best hardpoints at all. The hardpointdistribution makes it an assymetrical loadout, which then comes again with a strong and weak side. The TBR doesn't cares about such. The orion has to run mixed weapons, which is also requiring more weapongroup handling and aimdifferences between how these weapons work. TBR can boat anything, and makes this management supereasy. Again that little convinient difference.

and thats the thing when you would rate stuff like in numbers divided in categories, the TBR would not significantly stick out in any. But the sum of them is suddenly making it stick out.

Edited by Lily from animove, 09 January 2015 - 05:08 PM.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 09 January 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

Preface: I'm not arguing the Timberwolf isn't OP right here.

I am somewhat reluctant, though. I'd like to see a couple issues addressed before anything beyond very mild nerfs are implemented:

1) If a Clan XL engine nerf is on the table (slower with ST loss), that definitely needs to happen first.

That still needs to happen first and foremost. Larger engines should imply larger speed penalties while smaller engines should imply lesser speed penalties.

Quote

2) The Orion needs buffs. The Timberwolf gets compared with lighter heavies frequently, which isn't entirely fair, and then its 75t brother IS side is decidedly unimpressive.

The Orion is in the pipeline in mechs to grind, but w/o having spent much time (and like NEVER seeing them), there are some obvious deficiencies in them that would never allow it to compete with the Timberwolf.

If you even think of using the Orion-VA... you'll immediately notice that virtually the majority of the weapons are in the arms. I've written a lot about mechs that are SOLELY dependent on the arms... like the Mist Lynx, Ice Ferret, and even the Summoner. So, even if you create a decent weapon loadout, it's probably going to end up as an LRM boat than an SRM boat.

The Orion-K looks kinda like a 75-ton Atlas-RS... which by Atlas standards is only better than the Atlas-K and Boar's Head (essentially, it's #3 or #4 in Atlas comparisons). It's seems a little unfair, but it is what it is.

The Orion-M seems like a decent shot to be OK, but I prefer to use Artemis whenever I use SRM6s, and the CT prevents that. I guess it would be OK otherwise...

The Orion-V has some potential, but it completely relies on its RT with the double dakka to probably do a bit of the work and might be an OK option though the scattered hardpoints reduces cohesion if you want to make it brawl (SRMs from 3 different sections hurts whatever magical convergence code PGI is using).

While I don't care too much about the Protector, but it does have something going with the hardpoint placements... but back to the original issue... I don't see these mechs fielded very often.

It could be argued that the mechs were better when the hitboxes allowed it to be cored easily, but allowed for XL engines to be a safe option and would have had a chance for the mech to compete. Since the Orion really needs a lot more help (more structure on the arms, serious revising of the quirks, and possibly just better torso twist speed to properly combat against the Timberwolf)... it's hard for it to compete straight up as currently constituted.

Quote

The timberwolf needs nerfs. But by god, please, just little baby steps. I'm still traumatized by what happened to the Victor.

I don't think PGI is capable of baby steps though. I've suggested stuff that IS pretty much baby steps (well, the duration increase is a bit extreme) and I should have prefaced my suggestions for balance saying "if nothing else changes" with regards to XL engines.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 09 January 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

That still needs to happen first and foremost. Larger engines should imply larger speed penalties while smaller engines should imply lesser speed penalties.



The Orion is in the pipeline in mechs to grind, but w/o having spent much time (and like NEVER seeing them), there are some obvious deficiencies in them that would never allow it to compete with the Timberwolf.

If you even think of using the Orion-VA... you'll immediately notice that virtually the majority of the weapons are in the arms. I've written a lot about mechs that are SOLELY dependent on the arms... like the Mist Lynx, Ice Ferret, and even the Summoner. So, even if you create a decent weapon loadout, it's probably going to end up as an LRM boat than an SRM boat.

The Orion-K looks kinda like a 75-ton Atlas-RS... which by Atlas standards is only better than the Atlas-K and Boar's Head (essentially, it's #3 or #4 in Atlas comparisons). It's seems a little unfair, but it is what it is.

The Orion-M seems like a decent shot to be OK, but I prefer to use Artemis whenever I use SRM6s, and the CT prevents that. I guess it would be OK otherwise...

The Orion-V has some potential, but it completely relies on its RT with the double dakka to probably do a bit of the work and might be an OK option though the scattered hardpoints reduces cohesion if you want to make it brawl (SRMs from 3 different sections hurts whatever magical convergence code PGI is using).

While I don't care too much about the Protector, but it does have something going with the hardpoint placements... but back to the original issue... I don't see these mechs fielded very often.

It could be argued that the mechs were better when the hitboxes allowed it to be cored easily, but allowed for XL engines to be a safe option and would have had a chance for the mech to compete. Since the Orion really needs a lot more help (more structure on the arms, serious revising of the quirks, and possibly just better torso twist speed to properly combat against the Timberwolf)... it's hard for it to compete straight up as currently constituted.




I don't think PGI is capable of baby steps though. I've suggested stuff that IS pretty much baby steps (well, the duration increase is a bit extreme) and I should have prefaced my suggestions for balance saying "if nothing else changes" with regards to XL engines.

Yeah, all this.

I'm right with you with all your suggestions... But, as much as I'm really happy with Post-IGP PGI, I'm deeply concerned that we'll wake up one say, see buffs making the other clan mechs more usable, but the Timberwolf and Stormcrow rather than being balanced will be nerfed into next week.

Now, I'm not *terribly* invested in them. I wouldn't mind not playing them for a while. But really, they're both great mechs and I'd hate to see them mangled. Mild nerfs, absolutely. But the one thing I'm not really confident with today's PGI is gradual, incremental changes, particularly when it comes to nerfing something viewed as OP.

And in the TBR and SCR's case, a great deal of what makes them appear so OP is their mechlab flexibility. That isn't something that can change, but it's also something that doesn't help them in battle, either. Though it does help them remain good through changes to overall game balance and shifting metas.

They're legitimately OP in game too, but not by an large margin.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 09 January 2015 - 03:49 PM, said:

The first thing that I'm sure people were screaming/wondering about when MWO had surfaced years ago was simply "where was the Madcat?" While that name was the common IS designation for the mech, the Timberwolf is arguably one of the most iconic mechs in EVERY Mechwarrior game.

So, having understood that MWO in the beginning was strictly IS for the most part... it only only take them approximately 2 years (give or take months) to get them released. On the other hand, this occurred probably at a weak time where IS balance was still pretty bad in areas and now only recently finally addressed. However despite all that, the Timberwolf is the arguably best mech (at least for Heavies, IS or otherwise) and it is worth taking an indepth look into them, because they are always the point of content for balance discussions and it is in the best interest to look at what they can and cannot do, with respect to overall balance, particularly Clan.

3 is still the magic number, and those are the sections that will be discussed in question.

1) Omnipods - Jack of all trades, ironically master of them all
2) Field Report - It's good, no really?
3) The Future - Does it need more? - The mech might need to painted red...

1) Omnipods - Doing everything, and yet still nothing at the same time...

If any other mech has this smorgasbord of options, people would be licking their chops more. For the Timberwolf, it's like having an endless supply of your favorite food. You can make it to laservomit, missile boat, or even stuff it with a decent ballistic. Did I forget to mention it can use JJs? That's just the tip of the iceberg, and it's honestly hard to give a fair comparison to other mechs w/o compromising like 3 different things...

1) Speed (although the Dragons and Quickdraws are faster)
2) Firepower/Loadout/Hardpoints (matching them in other chassis is fools errand)
3) Tonnage (despite having a ridiculously sized engine, but benefiting from Endo+Ferro)

Still, if you're a min-maxing demon, you'll also find compromises that have to be made, but knowing this still allows you to do what most other mechs dream of... but let's goto the specifics.

Let's start with the CT, which generally does have variety. In the Timberwolf's case, it is paramount to understand.

Center Torso:
Timberwolf-Prime - 1B
Timberwolf-C - 1E
Timberwolf-S - +1JJ

Due to the use of Ferro AND Endo, the legs head, and to a lesser extent the CT and side torsos are compromised. While that sounds like a drag, the Timberwolf does have options.

The Prime has little value unless you value MGs as it only serves to be filler space.

The Timberwolf-S is probably the variant that has inevitably caused the most controversy, as previous iterations of the MW series have never had to deal with Jump Jets because it wasn't a stock build. For whatever reason, it was decided that it needed to be added AND be added to this game. So, it is what it is. In any case, the variant serves to have that 1 JJ locked in due to omnimech construction rules and at best serves for brief movement and inept for any attempts to poptarting.

The Timberwolf-C is highly coveted for its extra energy hardpoint. Despite it just being one slot, it's still space for fit in another CERMED, which has always been a staple in clan builds and it's hard to argue against its significance.

So, before going into the critical sections of importance, the arms are next up on the list...


Left Arm:
Timberwolf-Prime - 2E
Timberwolf-C - 2E
Timberwolf-S - 1E, +5% arm movement (pitch+yaw)

Timberwolves by nature are energy heavy, and reflect it. If for whatever reason you don't need the extra energy, the S's omnipod is useful here.


Right Arm:
Timberwolf-Prime - 2E
Timberwolf-C - 1B, +5% arm movement (pitch+yaw)
Timberwolf-S - 2E

If you have a need for a large arm ballistic, there's your option with the C omnipod. Note that this is lower than the side torso mounts, but not by much.

The serious business starts here though...


Left Torso:
Timberwolf-Prime - 1E, 1M
Timberwolf-C - 1M, 1AMS
Timberwolf-S - 1B, 2M, +2JJ, -3% torso twist, -2.5% missile cooldown

Regardless of what you want, you'll be carrying a missile hardpoint... so it would be kinda weird to see an Timberwolf w/o its "trademark" missile ears (which will change in the future).

The value of the ballistic hardpoint here in the S omnipod is rather minimized due the state of Clan ballistics. Unless you're hording MGs, the missile hardpoints and indirectly the JJs are why you use this. However, the 2 JJ are "hardlocked" to the omnipod unlike the original omnipod construction rules. This was done in part for "balance", but causes a slight subset of issues that could be directly "corrected" through the release of the Timberwolf-D. This issue will get exacerbated a just a moment...


Right Torso:
Timberwolf-Prime - 1B, 1M
Timberwolf-C - 1M, +10 Torso Twist Radius
Timberwolf-S - 1E, 1B, 2M, +2JJ, -5% torso twist, -2.5% missile cooldown

It almost feels like the C's omnipod is out of place, given the value of the other omnipod options. I guess it's something.

The Prime's omnipod is actually ideal for carrying a big ballistic... except that excludes the CUAC20 and the CLBX20... but it's a "perfect" fit if you wanted Gauss in the right torso. While there are not that many mechs that take advantage of dual Clan Gauss other than the Direwolf, there's still a slight imbalance between that and the IS version... which needs to be looked at someday. I guess you "could" use something like a Clan LBX10, but you'd probably do better in a Summoner (assuming, you like the IS LBX10, which is effectively the same thing). Anyways, the ballistic hardpoint is valuable if you ever needed to run Gauss.

The Timberwolf-S's Right Torso omnipod is probably the most sought after. While the ballistic hardpoint is generally meaningless, the extra energy hardpoint WITH JJs is more than what most people need it for. However, similar to the Left Torso, you are paying for that with some penalties (the list of benefits somewhat outweight the negatives) and I hate to say that there needs a bit more nerfing here because of it.


For just imagining the combinations, it's tempting to go overboard on so many different loadouts, but you'll end up really having to juggle hardpoints, tonnage, and even ammo placement because of it. Even if you wanted to load up on Clan SRMs, you will find that putting ammo in the arms has to be an option, so losing parts of your mech will eventually make you less effective... as it should, and by balancing it like this requires the pilot to be very cognizant of his own build weaknesses.

Most designs favor the right side with all the weapons, and thus makes the left side to be the designated "shield torso". When running a Timberwolf, it is not unrealistic to lose 1 side torso before going down, so if you're getting cored w/o losing a side torso, you are literally doing it wrong.

While I don't entirely believe in strict symmetry (it's only applicable in limited circumstances), it requires you to build it that way to a degree due to losing a section won't always lose 50%-ish (well, more like 40%-ish) of your firepower. That is a very serious consideration in all good Timberwolf builds.

So, how does it fare on the field?


2) Field Report - Sometimes it is a god amongst its peers...

Having built it 3 different ways and watched those fielded in the last "chassis" challenge, it does everything a min-maxer/competitive player wants with minimal regrets as long as they play to their strengths.

However, like all hot builds (and particularly Clan mechs), the best way to counter that is to aggressively push on the Timberwolf. I guess both sides are able to do that, and arguably the side that does it more effectively tends to be the winner... so if you're going to continue to not push against powerful mechs like Timberwolf, you are honestly playing right into their hands.

My original fear of the Timberwolf is that its ears would be a detriment, but it doesn't appear to be the case due to how it is structured, especially with how the missile ears and torso are constructed (most notable with the Timberwolf-S omnipods). The best description of the torsos are that they are "Stalker-like" and that chassis is still holding up (and is still a decent Assault option for the IS). Back the original point... if you are not losing a side torso on your way to your death, you're doing it wrong.

The greatest risk I've found is actually trying to field SRMs (with Artemis) using all 4 missile hardpoints. However, when the team pushes with me, the glaring weakness tends to be minimized... but even then, I almost always expect to lose some ammo along the way. It is what it is.

I've actually tried to run 5 ASRM6s on the Summoner and that's just "too hot" as using the arms strictly to shoot minimizes the Ghost Heat penalty... so the Timberwolf arguably has the "right number".

Fortunately, the best rule of thumb for that is still honestly minimize the facetime you need on your targets/opponents... which honestly applies to all mechs and piloting in general. The "best" SRM build has always been 4 CERMED + 4 ASRM6 (or some variation) and the current combination is just really potent as it is... despite the 4 mandatory JJs from the S omnipods. While I think the D's omnipods should be released ASAP, it is far ahead of the alternatives up to this point... and the closest thing to match it AFAIK is a Stalker... A decent Victor build (ideally brawler, but a poptart is just as good) could certainly compete, but the situation is honestly what it is...

While I guess there's not much more to say (I think), but I guess the question everyone is asking is "does it need a nerf?" I say yes, but going about this is a very difficult task, so that will need some discussion.


3) The Future - How do we make this mech better nerf it properly?

The only future omnipod of consequence is the Timberwolf-A's Left Torso. It contains 3 energy hardpoints and arguably be difficult to balance. I have come up with a few ideas but no solution I'd like to stick to because there will be consequences down the road once new mechs are added...

I have 3 different ideas... they could all be combined, but I have to give both sides of the argument so that it is made clear... at some point a nerf may have to be applied, and one would hope it doesn't turn out like the Victor in a "previous" life.

1) Tie an energy cooldown INCREASE (nerf) PER every energy TORSO hardpoint on the Timberwolf. For instance, having the Timberwolf-C's CT should increase the energy cooldown increase by 3% minimum and at most 5%. This includes the Timberwolf-Prime's Left Torso AND the Timberwolf-S's Right Torso omnipod. For if and/or when the Timberwolf-A's Left Torso arrives (with a 10 to 15% minimum cooldown increase), it can be properly balanced, since you WANT the player to rely on their energy arms instead of the energy torsos (allowing it to laservomit more once the arms are removed). If you want those torso energy hardpoints, the price for that has to be paid.

The only "buff" resulting from that should actually be the lone Timberwolf-S's Left Arm, where a 3% energy cooldown REDUCTION should be balanced.

2) I've thought long and hard on this, but a laser duration INCREASE may be needed on those same torso hardpoints. Increasing them by 5% per Energy hardpoint in the torso would be necessary. Increasing the duration indirectly lowers the TTK because of the facetime involved. Increasing the duration by even 1 tenth of a second does can change opinions of a laser at times (Does anyone want to go back the the 2 second CERLL days? I don't). This would make the chassis less desirable, but it's hard to know until it goes through.

I would like to say that the #2 option should only be used AS A LAST RESORT. It is certainly not my first choice as it makes for very difficult conversations.

3) The missile cooldown nerf may need to increase... at least double from what it is now (-2.5% missile cooldown per S side torso). The problem is that the Summoner is a decent missile boat, but suffers from tonnage and lack of energy hardpoints... which the Timberwolf has plenty of. I don't honestly know the impact of having a large missile rack on the Summoner's arms (perhaps someone that is willing to share some data on that would be greatly appreciated), but leaving it situated with a mech that has 4 missile hardpoints AND can also field at least 2 energy hardpoints to go with that (up to 6E really)... that's a lot.

While it could be argued that it suffers from tonnage+crits, you're getting a lot in return compared to the alternatives like the Summoner or even Stormcrow. I would certainly recommend the release of the Timberwolf-D side torso omnipods to rectify a few things (the hardlocked JJs for one), but the missile cooldown nerf has to increase unless competing solutions finally get the level of energy support that the IS Stalker would be able to bring (the Awesome-8R is a poor facsimile IMO).

While I know the arguments will rage on, the Timberwolf excels far beyond the existing options due to the current levels of balance... that doesn't favor Clan ballistics outside of Gauss. It knows how to use lasers and then some until ERPPCs are fired at a respectable speed. The new "Timbersplat" is not matchable to alternative options yet also has its own set of risks.

To say the Timberwolf is balanced is silly... and if were the case... everything else really does suck. Something has to give and the Timberwolf needs a nerf. I'm sure there will be a future mech or balance buff that may make the Timberwolf irrelevant, but that's unlikely given the wealth of hardpoints.

The best way to describe the Timberwolf is "a guilty pleasure". It you can't recognize it, I can't help you. While it is not "totally" easy mode (although I've considered yelling it in coms, but I haven't bothered using them after mastering them)... good players can make that deficiency go away with timing and practice... none of which are automatically guaranteed when using this mech.

Like the signal to noise ratio about the Timberwolf's prominence... the question remains...

If a Timberwolf falls in a f Forest Colony, does it make a sound?

The mech is not invincible... the people who are afraid of it make it so.

I will say this...you certainly tried to be as objective as you could, and this does not smack of preconceived notions nearly as badly as I expected. I can sense you sort of expected the results to be what you posted, however, I appreciate you mention that it does in fact have flaws.

Yes, good players can minimize those, however, it is not just an "I win" button.

I would be curious to see a discussion about the flaws all clan mechs share in the open. Considering that much of the issues of the underperforming mechs are issues that stem from omnimechs as a group.

Of course, when/if IS mechs have omnis, then I am sure things will be "tweaked" because IS. However, at this point the TW is a good mech, and I think nothing should be done to adjust anything until the dust settles...

Though, I do, so very badly, want the D omnipods. My favorite build pre-JJ nerf was a TW S CT with a single JJ and 4SRM4s with 2xCERPPC, (which is almost a stock D sans the JJ)

Edited by Gyrok, 09 January 2015 - 10:11 PM.

[El Bandito]

TW rear torsi need to jut out more and thus making them more vulnerable to damage. Right now TW pilots can get away with only 2-3 rear armor points, even in a brawling build, and consequently, their front armor easily equals an 80 ton Assault mech. That is unbalanced.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 January 2015 - 10:15 PM.

[Gyrok]

El Bandito, on 09 January 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

TW rear torsi need to jut out more and thus making them more vulnerable to damage. Right now TW pilots can get away with only 2-3 rear armor points, even in a brawling build, and consequently, their front armor easily equals an 80 ton Assault mech. That is unbalanced.

Erm...I am not running across anyone running 2-3 armor on the back, if they did, they would easily die to an alpha strike from my hellbie. Based on the best math I can offer...I usually see 10-15 armor across the back. I run 10 myself.

[Y E O N N E]

I don't think IS omnis will make a difference, because IS omnis are garbage. Not only are they usually stuck with XLs, but they are stuck with slow XLs. Vulnerability of an IS XL, no speed, shorter-ranged IS weapons and likely locked hardpoints? No. That will be all but completely unplayable.

Wintersdark, on 09 January 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

Preface: I'm not arguing the Timberwolf isn't OP right here.

I am somewhat reluctant, though. I'd like to see a couple issues addressed before anything beyond very mild nerfs are implemented:

1) If a Clan XL engine nerf is on the table (slower with ST loss), that definitely needs to happen first.
2) The Orion needs buffs. The Timberwolf gets compared with lighter heavies frequently, which isn't entirely fair, and then its 75t brother IS side is decidedly unimpressive.

The timberwolf needs nerfs. But by god, please, just little baby steps. I'm still traumatized by what happened to the Victor.

On the flip side of the coin, the Timberwolf also gets compared to Assault 'Mechs like the Banshee and the Victor. PGI said Clans should be punching 5-10 tons above their weight, but that line of reasoning is fundamentally flawed when they also declared that IS vs. Clan would remain 12 on 12.

So what is the result? They had to buff certain IS chassis so hard that they themselves punch 10-15 tons above their weight in order to compete. It's power creep of the highest order, and it all goes back to the fact that the Timberwolf was built to creep power from the beginning. Now we have an IS heavy that is hilariously cool-running no matter what you mount on it, and now people are contemplating raising the bar for Clan 'Mechs, too, even ones that were essentially fine until said IS heavy came along.

No. Bad. Stop.

The last thing we need is to have an increased proliferation of Glass Cannon Syndrome going on in this game.

And the worst part? The worst part is that all of these checks and balances for everything are based on something that I believe is broken from the outset: the heat system. I suppose that's a discussion for another thread, though.

[Demuder]

So, OP wrote a very nice post that is so long that it breaks the "quote" button. Even though he argues about the op-ness of the T-Wolf, he concludes that it is "op" - but not "easy mode", it is a "guilty pleasure" - but with deficiencies. Furthermore, the nerfs he proposes are so inconsequential that they wouldn't even make a difference to the most hardcore TBR pilots.

Honestly OP, very nice worded post but make up your mind, is the TBR overpowered and should get a decent nerf or is it just the "whine topic that never goes away" ? The fact that you felt the need to write 2.511 (MS Word count) words to make your case about the TBR's alleged OPness certainly makes a statement on its own.

[Deathlike]

Demuder, on 10 January 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

So, OP wrote a very nice post that is so long that it breaks the "quote" button. Even though he argues about the op-ness of the T-Wolf, he concludes that it is "op" - but not "easy mode", it is a "guilty pleasure" - but with deficiencies. Furthermore, the nerfs he proposes are so inconsequential that they wouldn't even make a difference to the most hardcore TBR pilots.

Well, it's a bit of both, I don't even bother with the Timberwolf much these days.

The thing is about increasing duration... a lot of people hated the 2 second CERLL when that change was made. Just increasing that on a chassis would dissuade a lot of people from using it. (The CERLL nerf had pretty much converted people from CERLL to CLPL, so the next best thing would most likely be overused as a result).

Quote

Honestly OP, very nice worded post but make up your mind, is the TBR overpowered and should get a decent nerf or is it just the "whine topic that never goes away" ? The fact that you felt the need to write 2.511 (MS Word count) words to make your case about the TBR's alleged OPness certainly makes a statement on its own.

It probably needs a nerf, but I'm not the guy to make the best decisions on it... so I don't know what to tell you.

All those words generally mean, "People talk about it, because it's probably worth talking about." It's like so many things where people tweet and retweet stuff they happen to be talking about the most at the time. I don't see this being any different really.

[Demuder]

Deathlike, on 10 January 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

Well, it's a bit of both, I don't even bother with the Timberwolf much these days.

The thing is about increasing duration... a lot of people hated the 2 second CERLL when that change was made. Just increasing that on a chassis would dissuade a lot of people from using it. (The CERLL nerf had pretty much converted people from CERLL to CLPL, so the next best thing would most likely be overused as a result).

It probably needs a nerf, but I'm not the guy to make the best decisions on it... so I don't know what to tell you.

All those words generally mean, "People talk about it, because it's probably worth talking about." It's like so many things where people tweet and retweet stuff they happen to be talking about the most at the time. I don't see this being any different really.

I fear re-reading my post made me realize I might have sounded dismissive or arrogant, it was not my intention - for this, I apologize - thank you for taking the time to word a proper reply.

The thing is though, that with these two mechs, their power does not come from one single thing. Their power comes from being in the sweet spot of their class/available upgrades/available hardpoints/mech design/etc. They are in effect, a greater entity than the mere sum of their parts - something that can be found in other mechs as well, such as the Firestarter, Stalker, Hunchback, Atlas, etc. The pronounced defects on their Clan siblings only makes that standout more, as well.

That's why there's threads like yours with an original post of 2500 words trying to describe it and your run of the mill "NERF THE TIMBERGOD" outcries. And that's also the reason the replies in those threads are either 2500 word posts trying to describe how these mechs are not overpowered or snide 1-liners about how the TBR/SCR are just fine.

The only way to "nerf" those two mechs would be to either,
a.) destroy them - a la Victor, where the problem was not the Victor per se but JJ sniping+PPFLD+good hitboxes
b.) destroy systems unrelated to the TBR/SCR - such as Clan XLs, Clan weapons, etc

So I'd suggest that we avoid the trap of focusing on the TBR and SCR - and TDR even. There's a lot problems that can be resolved if PGI decided to take another look at their Clan - IS weapon balancing, mech customization options, etc etc.

Edited by Demuder, 10 January 2015 - 03:39 AM.

[Ragnar Darkmane]

Gyrok, on 09 January 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:

Erm...I am not running across anyone running 2-3 armor on the back, if they did, they would easily die to an alpha strike from my hellbie. Based on the best math I can offer...I usually see 10-15 armor across the back. I run 10 myself.

Oh, you are totally shooting TBRs with 3 armor points in the back without instantkilling them... because TBR back hitboxes are glitched and 90% of your damage gets absorbed by an invisible black hole. Same goes for the bunnyhop JJ animation.

Quite curious that PGI never fixed these issues for their best selling mech... that's already out for what, 8 months? When the Hellbringer hitboxes were bugged... they were fixed within a week.

Edited by Ragnar Darkmane, 10 January 2015 - 03:46 AM.

[Demuder]

Ragnar Darkmane, on 10 January 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

Oh, you are totally shooting TBRs with 3 armor points in the back without instantkilling them... because TBR back hitboxes are glitched and 90% of your damage gets absorbed by an invisible black hole. Same goes for the bunnyhop JJ animation.

I do get backstabbed in my TBR quite fine, and I do carry 17 points in the back. 90% of the damage absorbed... that would mean someone must have done more than 200 points back there, I would have noticed that.

As for bunnyhopping... I think you are mistaking TBRs for FS9s, since an FS9 can certainly soak more damage than a couple of TBRs.

Edited by Demuder, 10 January 2015 - 03:56 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Ragnar Darkmane, on 10 January 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

Oh, you are totally shooting TBRs with 3 armor points in the back without instantkilling them... because TBR back hitboxes are glitched and 90% of your damage gets absorbed by an invisible black hole. Same goes for the bunnyhop JJ animation.

Quite curious that PGI never fixed these issues for their best selling mech... that's already out for what, 8 months? When the Hellbringer hitboxes were bugged... they were fixed within a week.

I have absolutely no problem dumping damage into a TBR's backside, if he presents it. None. In fact, it's so easy that back-coring is my most employed method of destroying them, followed by side-torso removal.

[El Bandito]

Gyrok, on 09 January 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:

Erm...I am not running across anyone running 2-3 armor on the back, if they did, they would easily die to an alpha strike from my hellbie. Based on the best math I can offer...I usually see 10-15 armor across the back. I run 10 myself.

I run 3 armor myself and of all the matches I dropped into, I was killed from the back once, when I was AFK. The point is, Timbie rear armor is so well protected from all sides due to being flattened in MWO design, that only shooting straight from the back has good chance of damaging the rear torsi.

The rear torsi should jut out like this old concept art, thus making it more vulnerable. That will make the Timbie pilots take more armor in the back and reducing front armor. Right now, My Timberwub is packing more frontal armor than the Dragon Slayer and kicking ass.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 January 2015 - 05:56 AM.

[Demuder]

El Bandito, on 10 January 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

The point is, Timbie rear armor is so well protected from all sides due to being flattened in MWO design, that only shooting straight from the back has good chance of damaging the rear torsi.

That, however, is totally different than believing there's a "black hole that absorbs up to 90 damage" isn't it ? It's not uncommon either and it happens also in mechs without flat backs, ie the Atlas, where damage is "transferred" to front CT armor.

[Kotev]

TW is very good mech but is not the best after IS qurks.

[Ultimax]

Demuder, on 10 January 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

That, however, is totally different than believing there's a "black hole that absorbs up to 90 damage" isn't it ? It's not uncommon either and it happens also in mechs without flat backs, ie the Atlas, where damage is "transferred" to front CT armor.

Basically yes.

It's not a black hole.

Good players will exploit it if they discover you have very low back armor and your mech is built for short/med range.

Bad players will continue to be bad and whizz damage all over your mech and let you get away with 3 armor in the back.


I wouldn't run 3 armor in the back of my TBRs unless the build was a pure sniper build, like 4x CERLLAS for Boreal.

My close range build runs more than that, getting hammered from behind is a reality - all it takes is understanding the hitboxes of the mech.


So while bandito's anecdote is his, mine is that I have cored a number of TBRs from behind who clearly stripped way too much off the back.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 10 January 2015 - 09:03 AM.

[Ultimax]

A funny observation on good/optimal hitboxes and these forums.


One of the biggest complaints, not by me, on these forums is often TTK being too low.

The few mechs that have excellent hitboxes and therefore survive longer, get complained about and people want them nerfed.

This is why the Victor & Highlanders got the nerfs they did, the goal was to make it easier for them to kill and more difficult for them to fight at close range.


Is this a case of "if my mech can't have it, then no one's can."?


I don't find Stormcrows or Timber Wolves particularly difficult to kill relative to their tonnage, but I suppose I did spend some extra time learning their hitboxes and recognizing when I could take out STs or go for CT or when I needed to go for legs.


I've been on teams where you watch guys go CT every single time, even if other components are weak.

I've seen situations where a target caller is calling legs and some go CT anyway.

Unfortunately the instinct to go CT is simply too strong in some people, that's their fault though.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 10 January 2015 - 09:10 AM.