192 replies to this topic

[Molossian Dog]

And when the Tetatae are unleashing their surprise invasion we will have to team up with the clans against the evil space birds from beyond.

[MischiefSC]

Biggest problem with Liao for Davion is that every time we've ignored the Liao border it got attacked - and likely should. Liao has absolutely no choice BUT to fight Davion or Marik. They have a treaty with Marik already, so they will inevitably attack Davion. There's no other option for them.

Ergo Davion has to stomp on Liao. Because if they don't they'll end up fighting Liao on Davion worlds sooner or later, better to just get that over with now and go cut into Liao territory. There is no real viable option for Davion/Liao save the complete annihilation of one side or the other, because Liao has no options but attacking Davion.

Marik is another matter. We created and kept a treaty with Marik over Christmas and it lasted until Marik was done with it - it wasn't Davion that crossed that line. We have a lot of respect for Marik and a treaty with them isn't out of order for Davion by any stretch. Been fighting long enough we have a good command of each others tactics and pugging on the Clan border I'm always happy to see some Mariks with us; I know they showed up to play and play hard, not just farm, and are in it to win it and we're almost certainly going to agree on a strategy out of the gate.

Davion has no option but to stomp Liao, specifically because Liao has no option but to attack Davion. Marik though? We've got good relations with Marik. Expanding into Marik space doesn't actually get Davion anything - what, a longer Steiner border? Liao we have to fight. Expanding into Kurita space would get us closer to a Clanner border, which we want. Admittedly the way things are going we can be patient and end up with a CSJ border before too long. Steiner? Fedcom, 'nuff said. Don't blow off a Davion/Marik alliance though. We've got more in common than any other set of factions in the game right now.

[Joe Decker]

That whole Thing with Liao is definitely a Problem - not sure if there could be a nice Way how PGI could fix that and still keeping true to the Lore. Usually I got an Idea what they could do but here sadly not. The Situation is worse for Liao than Davion though, still i understand that Davion stomps on them. It's War. Maybe giving them a Corridor to the central IS would help...

Edited by Joe Decker, 20 January 2015 - 10:45 PM.

[100mile]

There is absolutely no reason what so ever for continued Marik/Davion hostilities. Liao is not a part of that discussion. In other words we would not expect Marik to break the truce they have with Liao as we know the Marik leaders to be honorable. Just like I am sure Marik wouldn't expect us to ignore a threat on our border.
I know for a fact that House Davion Leadership would be willing to sit at the table...

VR

Edited by 100mile, 20 January 2015 - 11:29 PM.

[Davers]

100mile, on 20 January 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

There is absolutely no reason what so ever for continued Marik/Davion hostilities. Liao is not a part of that discussion. In other words we would not expect Marik to break the truce they have with Liao as we know the Marik leaders to be honorable. Just like I am sure Marik wouldn't expect us to ignore a threat on our border.
I am know for a fact that House Davion Leadership would be willing to sit at the table...

VR

So we end hostilities with Davion, freeing up their units to attack Liao? Will Davion sit by and let us hit Steiner? I think their alliance with Steiner means more to them than an alliance with us. If Steiner threatened to break it they will turn on us. So we would end up at war with Davion and Steiner and our reputation smirched with Liao. Perhaps Marik honor means little to some of you, but I am proud that we have refrained from hitting Liao and helped keep CW a little more fair and fun for our fellow players.

[Karl Marlow]

Unfortunatly Liao is a part of that discussion. Let me just lay the cards on teh table and let people so what they will with it.

Proposal: The Marik/Davion Counter Invasion Corridors

As you are aware there was a lot of talk from the Clan front about how Davion, Marik, and Liao aren't helping attacking the clan planets even though we physically can't. A potential solution I think might work is to make our own corridors strait into Clan space. What I envision is Davion and Marik forces taking the worlds from Steiner and Kurita up the Center or outside edge of their northern neighbor until we have border contact with one of the clans. Once we have that border we can apply additional fronts and pressure to the invading clans by making them defend even more worlds. We are obviously at the mercy of the World picking algorithm while this is taking place. It is important that we do not provide a direct line to Terra via our corridor and so the center should be avoided.
In order for this to be effective there are 2 major points that need to be ironed out.


The Liao problem

The question of what to do with Liao is important. Liao depends on Marik aggression in addition to Kurita to tie up Davion forces in their attacks. Simply requesting they stop attacking both sides is not a valid option. What I propose is not simply linking Marik and Davion but making a complete Southern alliance with Liao as an active participant. In order to accomplish this Both Marik and Davion would allow an expeditionary force to travel up Marik and Davion lines until they have two separate outposts on the Kurita and Steiner border. They would then be able to launch attacks of their own and join the push. We would close up the lane behind them until Liao would have two outposts similar to what Marik has on Moore right now. Providing more opportunities for Liao might also boost their numbers which would further increase the power of the Southern alliance. Should Laio be successful in their push north that would also be one additional faction that would be applying pressure to the clans in the attack.

The Zion/St Ives issue

Should this plan be set into motion it will take months to see it bear any fruit. In the meantime Marik units are not willing to sacrifice worlds lost in the 5^th succession wars and Liao wants St Ives back. At the same time Davion is reluctant to just hand these hard won worlds back over. So in the spirit of keeping our armies sharp and ready for combat once we do reach Clan space I propose that the Zion and St Ives provinces be considered battlezones for the duration of the alliance. Marik and Liao would be allowed to fight for their respective worlds, in addition worlds one system deep on either side of these contested worlds would be up for grabs. This will give all factions something to work towards while also limiting any damage to the core factions should one side begin to dominate. In order for this to work the battlezone would be considered a secondary target. The primary focus of every faction would be to move North. I would also propose that the Marik and Liao border be opened in a similar faction. Allow Marik and Liao to engage in wargames as a secondary objective over the worlds Marik took from Liao.

Engaging the clans

These Battlezone areas will provide content for the Southern alliance who, for the most part, enjoy fighting each other. Once any of the nations in the Southern alliance reaches the clans the focus will shift entirely to the clans. Members of the alliance will abandon the battlezones and concentrating on either pushing into the clans or continue building their corridor. The secondary objective would go from battlezone combat to aiding in the defence of the nations that are attacking the clans.

[AeusDeif]

Joe Decker, on 20 January 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

That whole Thing with Liao is definitely a Problem - not sure if there could be a nice Way how PGI could fix that and still keeping true to the Lore..

Simple; insert the periphery realms. There should be two of them bordering Liao, plenty to keep them occupied.

[Kjudoon]

Roleplay aside....

I have ZERO interest in ever fighting in defense of or attacking a clan world. If Icould delete the clans from MWO outright, I would in a heartbeat.

This has been my opinion since their in the 80's and remains to this day.

AeusDeif, on 21 January 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

Simple; insert the periphery realms. There should be two of them bordering Liao, plenty to keep them occupied.

This please!!!

[Davers]

ThomasMarik, on 21 January 2015 - 12:13 AM, said:

Unfortunatly Liao is a part of that discussion. Let me just lay the cards on teh table and let people so what they will with it.

Proposal: The Marik/Davion Counter Invasion Corridors

As you are aware there was a lot of talk from the Clan front about how Davion, Marik, and Liao aren't helping attacking the clan planets even though we physically can't. A potential solution I think might work is to make our own corridors strait into Clan space. What I envision is Davion and Marik forces taking the worlds from Steiner and Kurita up the Center or outside edge of their northern neighbor until we have border contact with one of the clans. Once we have that border we can apply additional fronts and pressure to the invading clans by making them defend even more worlds. We are obviously at the mercy of the World picking algorithm while this is taking place. It is important that we do not provide a direct line to Terra via our corridor and so the center should be avoided.
In order for this to be effective there are 2 major points that need to be ironed out.


The Liao problem

The question of what to do with Liao is important. Liao depends on Marik aggression in addition to Kurita to tie up Davion forces in their attacks. Simply requesting they stop attacking both sides is not a valid option. What I propose is not simply linking Marik and Davion but making a complete Southern alliance with Liao as an active participant. In order to accomplish this Both Marik and Davion would allow an expeditionary force to travel up Marik and Davion lines until they have two separate outposts on the Kurita and Steiner border. They would then be able to launch attacks of their own and join the push. We would close up the lane behind them until Liao would have two outposts similar to what Marik has on Moore right now. Providing more opportunities for Liao might also boost their numbers which would further increase the power of the Southern alliance. Should Laio be successful in their push north that would also be one additional faction that would be applying pressure to the clans in the attack.

The Zion/St Ives issue

Should this plan be set into motion it will take months to see it bear any fruit. In the meantime Marik units are not willing to sacrifice worlds lost in the 5^th succession wars and Liao wants St Ives back. At the same time Davion is reluctant to just hand these hard won worlds back over. So in the spirit of keeping our armies sharp and ready for combat once we do reach Clan space I propose that the Zion and St Ives provinces be considered battlezones for the duration of the alliance. Marik and Liao would be allowed to fight for their respective worlds, in addition worlds one system deep on either side of these contested worlds would be up for grabs. This will give all factions something to work towards while also limiting any damage to the core factions should one side begin to dominate. In order for this to work the battlezone would be considered a secondary target. The primary focus of every faction would be to move North. I would also propose that the Marik and Liao border be opened in a similar faction. Allow Marik and Liao to engage in wargames as a secondary objective over the worlds Marik took from Liao.

Engaging the clans

These Battlezone areas will provide content for the Southern alliance who, for the most part, enjoy fighting each other. Once any of the nations in the Southern alliance reaches the clans the focus will shift entirely to the clans. Members of the alliance will abandon the battlezones and concentrating on either pushing into the clans or continue building their corridor. The secondary objective would go from battlezone combat to aiding in the defence of the nations that are attacking the clans.

We have no idea where the algorithim will open up new zones. Whatever corridor is opened up, it will NOT be a straight line to anywhere. As we have seen in Davion vs Marik, there is no ability to take back worlds 'behind the lines'. We have fought over the same worlds, in the same order, for weeks. All these proposals seem to rely on the algorithim doing things we have not seen it done at all. Even Marik's push into Kuritan space is not guaranteed to take us 'northward'. Quite simply, we have no idea what the attack vector will be. So much of 'the plan' seems to involve ghost drops to allow people to move towards the Clans. This doesn't sound like much fun.

Why again is it so important that the southern Houses fight the Clans? Why is it acceptable for Davion to chew up Kurita (or Steiner for that matter) just so they can fight the Clans? At least Marik has permission from Kurita to take planets as an experiment. If the Davs feel so altruistic, they should switch to factions fighting the Clans- like Kurita that they have been attacking. Maybe players joined the southern Houses so they wouldn't have to fight the Clans in the first place? And as for the northern Houses complaining about 'lack of support' against the Clans- well, no one is helping Davion defend their borders, but you don't see them crying on the forums that others should be fighting their battles for them. Has everyone conveniently forgotten that Marik is one of the smaller houses, based on the fact that we still get bonus Cbills and LP? Tell me again how a 3 front war (or 5 if Kurita and Liao were to decide to fight us) is in our best interests?

[IraqiWalker]

Grynos, on 20 January 2015 - 12:10 AM, said:

Just remember good folks of Marik, Davions have a treaty with Steiner , who along with Davion constantly attacks your borders. Davion will never allow you to attack Steiner without repercussions in the cost of your easternmost lands.
The nation of Liao , since our treaty, has yet to wage an attacking front on Marik soil.

Well, I don't see how us marching north through Kurita, and the FRR, should hinder Marik's march through Steiner, and the FRR? Yep, we sure are allied with Steiner, but it's not like we can queue up to defend Steiner worlds against Marik engagements.

ThomasMarik, on 20 January 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

What is with this allying with Davion instead of Liao bunk? There is no reason for Marik to attack Liao. There is also no reason Davion and Marik should not ally and push north.

Yes I know Davion holds Marik worlds. Marik also holds Liao worlds. I don't see them launching senseless attacks against us to take them back. AS far as I'm concerned Lore can be damned. There is no hard coded Fedcom. We would be better served with a Fedleague or join all three into a Southern Alliance.

I think the whole Marik/Davion dream team idea is springing up a lot because both our forces like, and respect each other, with a lot of fun had between us. So it's not far fetched for the two factions to have a union. As for the Liao thing... I guess they think that if Liao is wiped out, then we won't waste forces on that front anymore. I'm personally against Marik attacking Liao. Despite that it would help eliminate them from CW. Backstabbing doesn't feel like something THIS FWL would do.

[IraqiWalker]

Davers, on 21 January 2015 - 01:09 AM, said:

We have no idea where the algorithim will open up new zones. Whatever corridor is opened up, it will NOT be a straight line to anywhere. As we have seen in Davion vs Marik, there is no ability to take back worlds 'behind the lines'. We have fought over the same worlds, in the same order, for weeks. All these proposals seem to rely on the algorithim doing things we have not seen it done at all. Even Marik's push into Kuritan space is not guaranteed to take us 'northward'. Quite simply, we have no idea what the attack vector will be. So much of 'the plan' seems to involve ghost drops to allow people to move towards the Clans. This doesn't sound like much fun.

Why again is it so important that the southern Houses fight the Clans? Why is it acceptable for Davion to chew up Kurita (or Steiner for that matter) just so they can fight the Clans? At least Marik has permission from Kurita to take planets as an experiment. If the Davs feel so altruistic, they should switch to factions fighting the Clans- like Kurita that they have been attacking. Maybe players joined the southern Houses so they wouldn't have to fight the Clans in the first place? And as for the northern Houses complaining about 'lack of support' against the Clans- well, no one is helping Davion defend their borders, but you don't see them crying on the forums that others should be fighting their battles for them. Has everyone conveniently forgotten that Marik is one of the smaller houses, based on the fact that we still get bonus Cbills and LP? Tell me again how a 3 front war (or 5 if Kurita and Liao were to decide to fight us) is in our best interests?

For the record:
(Note: I am not disagreeing with you, nor arguing, just stating 2 points that I think are relevant)


1- Davion has ceased combat with Kurita. We have/had (not sure anymore, it's too recent, and I don't know how long it lasted/will last) a cease-fire with them (notice how our borders have been the same for a couple of days now) {My unit -HHoD- at least, has received direct orders to NEVER attack Kurtia unless command says so}

2- Some of us, have been Davion for years before MW:O. We stuck with the faction we like. Also, we do help out against the clans.

[Kjudoon]

Molossian Dog, on 20 January 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

No, this is why we have math.

An ally that needs you is trustworthy.
An ally that doesn´t need you is less trustworthy.

Therefore allying with the former is safer than allying with the latter.

So we forfeit a safety and gain...well...what exactly?

From whatever perspective you look at the matter, even if all things turn out in favour of this idea it is still bunk. And I pretty much expect that it won´t find alot of approval among the Marik community.
So, thankfully, this plan will not even become a factor.


--------------------------------


They are also not even asking for them or whine about them. Notice something? Something I said about an ally that needs you?

Again... this is why we have civil wars in Marik. Factionalization of the confederacy which is the essence of the League. One group may consider a treaty with davion treasonous, while another wouldtake the same view of liao.


I must admit, watching people talk about Liao as a problem when they are in essence in the room is both entertaining as it probably is insulting to them.

[MischiefSC]

Davers, on 20 January 2015 - 11:33 PM, said:

So we end hostilities with Davion, freeing up their units to attack Liao? Will Davion sit by and let us hit Steiner? I think their alliance with Steiner means more to them than an alliance with us. If Steiner threatened to break it they will turn on us. So we would end up at war with Davion and Steiner and our reputation smirched with Liao. Perhaps Marik honor means little to some of you, but I am proud that we have refrained from hitting Liao and helped keep CW a little more fair and fun for our fellow players.

Steiner are big boys and girls. Their conflict with Marik is no more Davions concern than Liaos conflict with Davion is Mariks concern. Any such discussion goes on well above my rank and rate but historically we had a ceasefire with Marik going while Marik and Steiner were still kicking each other in the teeth.

We help on the Steiner Clan border and will continue to do so unrelated to any Marik/Steiner conflict though, that you can be sure of.

Davion has helped create more ceasefires than any other faction. We've made ceasefires with Steiner, Marik and Kurita at different times - we've never broken any of them. In fact we held the ceasefire with Liao, not attacking them and only defending our own, for every single day we said we would even when they stacked up aggressively to attack Davion space intentionally during the ceasefire.

You want to argue the benefits of such for Marik that's well and good. You have no justification for ever saying Davion wouldn't hold its side of any bargain. Whatever else can be said we've got rock solid organization and a unified set of units and we do exactly what we say we're going to do.

[MischiefSC]

Kjudoon, on 21 January 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

Again... this is why we have civil wars in Marik. Factionalization of the confederacy which is the essence of the League. One group may consider a treaty with davion treasonous, while another wouldtake the same view of liao.


I must admit, watching people talk about Liao as a problem when they are in essence in the room is both entertaining as it probably is insulting to them.

While I acknowledge the necessity of Davion to curbstomp Liao I have been and still am the biggest proponent of fixing the crappy map position Liao is in. They need a way to open new fronts or the faction is pretty well screwed. For all the drama on the Davion/Liao border it's just going to get worse as things go from months to years. I haven't seen a proper WoL 12man is weeks, they're struggling to fill queues even after the new patch. That just sucks and it is absolutely a game design issue. They are stuck in a corner and need another way out of it or we've effectively thrown an entire game faction away.

That's a whole other issue but one I've debated, at length, on the Liao forum already. They are pinned in a situation that is absolutely hopeless and untenable. The success of their faction is 100% dependent on what Marik and Davion do. If Marik goes ceasefire with Davion then Liao is losing 3 worlds a day, even if they don't show, because Davion recognizes that Liao has no option but to attack Davion sooner or later so may as well settle that while we can and not later if things get worse or we have a Clan border. Because they have only 1 viable front they're unlikely to ever attract the big name merc units regardless of pay. It is absolutely a game design issue and needs a game design resolution.

Needs to be a way for Liao to open a new front on the Clan border. Doesn't even matter how difficult; just the potential for an end run of sorts to get out of the corner they're in.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

I just queued up alone on Phact. Just for you.

Is that a Phact?

[100mile]

All I am saying is I think there is a basis for talks...Whether those talk's bear any fruit or not is yet to be determined. Davion does respect Marik and would be willing to listen to reasonable proposals and I am sure House Marik would be similarly inclined to listen to reasonable proposals.
I will reiterate my statement earlier that we would expect you to honor your Non Aggression Pact or NAP agreement with House Liao. I mean to be blunt, if you didn't how would we trust you.
House Davion has a Non-aggression pact or NAP agreement with Steiner as well and I am sure Marik would expect us to honor that for the same reason.
A NAP agreement calls for both sides to not attack each other..Nothing more and Nothing less.

[Kjudoon]

Yes, this is a game design issue, but far older than MWO. In lore, what kept Liao from being gobbled up? Something that could be added to the game play or just 'script based' fluff of.we need a 'villian' so they exist in spite of things?

If it is script based, there is nothing short of giving unfair advantage to those who fight for them in the terms of enhanced abilities and buffs as well as massive payoffs to counteract faction loyalty. Without weaker periphery groups to pick on, they're sunk.

[Molossian Dog]

A handful of the Dave are playing nice on the forums.
Have you people ever considered this might be tactic?

The Dave would like to gobble up House Liao without Marik interference. No surprise, really. A good way to do that is sowing division among his enemies. Among Liao-Marik and within House Marik. From their perspective understandable, I get that.

What is not understandable is the reaction of some of the Leaguers. What the Free Worlders should do is act in their own best interest.

If all it takes is a pat on the back from said handful of the Dave to make you commit strategic suicide then you should contemplate about your self-confidence.


Now the math:

If Liao dies the Dave has less fronts. That´s not up to debate. It is a fact.
If you play nice with the Dave he will have it easier. Also a fact.
Left would be Kurita, Marik and Steiner. Yet another fact.

Now probabilities come into play.
Chances the Dave will attack Steiner? Nil.
Marik and Kurita left. The Dracs have the Clans at their gates. That means there is no counterweight.
Chances the Dave will just sit back, refrain from gaining worlds and only help defending against the Clans? ...
...
...Yeah...

Also I care for conquest. What would we conquer if your stupid treaty with the Dave would be in place? Steiner? Our newly acquired best Dave buddy would say "nono". So we would sit there cut off from any avenues of conquest. While potential enemies gain strenght. Great strategy.

I keep hearing stuff about "WHEN the Clans come south, then this and that..."
So far they haven´t. IF that should come to pass you can bring up your ideas again.

Backstabbing the Liaos (and standing by while they are taken down is just another way of backstabbing) would be wrong, because...
- it would be dishonourable. Other factions would trust us less. For good reason.
- it serves a current enemies´ interests. He gains.
- it doesn´t serve the FWLs´ interests. We gain nothing.
- it would cut us off from further conquest.
- if successful it frees manpower that could be used against us. Declarations of intention are just that. No more.

A pat on the back is nice, but painting worlds in purple is even better.

Don´t be the useful idiot.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 21 January 2015 - 04:12 AM.

[Karl Marlow]

Davers, on 21 January 2015 - 01:09 AM, said:

We have no idea where the algorithim will open up new zones. Whatever corridor is opened up, it will NOT be a straight line to anywhere. As we have seen in Davion vs Marik, there is no ability to take back worlds 'behind the lines'. We have fought over the same worlds, in the same order, for weeks. All these proposals seem to rely on the algorithim doing things we have not seen it done at all. Even Marik's push into Kuritan space is not guaranteed to take us 'northward'. Quite simply, we have no idea what the attack vector will be. So much of 'the plan' seems to involve ghost drops to allow people to move towards the Clans. This doesn't sound like much fun.

Why again is it so important that the southern Houses fight the Clans? Why is it acceptable for Davion to chew up Kurita (or Steiner for that matter) just so they can fight the Clans? At least Marik has permission from Kurita to take planets as an experiment. If the Davs feel so altruistic, they should switch to factions fighting the Clans- like Kurita that they have been attacking. Maybe players joined the southern Houses so they wouldn't have to fight the Clans in the first place? And as for the northern Houses complaining about 'lack of support' against the Clans- well, no one is helping Davion defend their borders, but you don't see them crying on the forums that others should be fighting their battles for them. Has everyone conveniently forgotten that Marik is one of the smaller houses, based on the fact that we still get bonus Cbills and LP? Tell me again how a 3 front war (or 5 if Kurita and Liao were to decide to fight us) is in our best interests?

You seem to have only read a few sentences of my post. You missed the part where I said that this plan will take months to bear fruit. What happens a few months from now? Maybe I'm looking at the long game instead of letting pride blind me beyond what happens tomorrow.

Yes, we are all at the mercy of the algorithm. That is why we would need to start now. at 3 planets a day corridors would develop, especially if we were picky and bypass planets that don't suit our needs.

No the plan does not call for only ghost drops. Far from it. The only ghost drops is getting Liao into the game and out of the middle of nowhere they started the game in/ Even one of the Davion posters realizes Liao needs a way to get in the game when they take their Lore glasses off for a second. There would be no other ghost drops unless Steiner and Kurita decided to just let us roll up from the south.

Why is it important to fight the clan. Good question, As I said I'm looking at the long game. Several months from now 2 things are going to happen. First this game is going to hit Steam. WE will see a big influx of players at that time and I'm going to bet you most of them aren't going to be familiar with lore. If they do any research at all about this game they are going to know it is set in the Clan invasion era and that the clan invasions was done by superior mechwarriosn is superior mechs. It isn't going to be hard to see where they go Especially when you consider that they are also going to be adding Nova Cat, Steel Viper, and Diamond Shark. Even if we account for an even distribution of the newbros into every faction that will be 7 clan vs 6 which gives the clans a majority. That is going to be a massive number of points of attack all across the northern front and we will only have 3 factions to try and oppose it.

Why is this our problem? The question isn't if the clans will make it south. If not contained it will happen. If Marik decides to just paint Davion purple or Davion decides to paint us Yellow we aren't going to have to worry about a 3 or 5 front war. WE are going to have to worry about a 7 to 9 front way pinned between the clans on one side and Liao and whoever loses the Davion Marik war on the other. We MUST get every faction involved in the Clan war as early as possible. We have to create points of attack across as many of them as possible. This is why we need Liao up here. That is extra points of attack. IF they are allowed to blob they will end up swarming us when the new clans and newbros arrive.

It's about keeping the Inner Sphere as intact as possible. My plan isn't about a petty territory dispute. This isn't about creating 3-5 fronts. Its about creating 1 front and 2 pseudo fronts for all three factions. It also isn't about stabbing Liao in the back. It's about saving it both as a faction in this game and as a community of players. You may not want to fight the clans but it will eventually happen. Pure numbers will make it so.

[Dawnstealer]

From a completely unbiased viewpoint, Marik should totally attack Liao. COMPLETELY unbiased. Just sitting up here, fighting the Clans, minding our own business...