37 replies to this topic

[Vindicator Jones]

I know a lot of people dont like the vindicator chasis, but I think its a great little mech when outfitted with the biggest engine and jumpjets. But the perks for the chasis, primarily the St Ives Blues, really need to be revised.

Energy Range +7.5%
Laser Duration -20%
Missile Cooldown +10%
Large Laser Range +7.5%

Look, lets be honest, the large laser on the St Ives Blues is really a waste of time. Ive tried MANY builds trying to get a build that is effective, but it just doesn't really work the best, as you have limited tonnage and low slung arms. This is a great brawling mech, not a sniper.. 3 Medium lasers are the go here and really we need some medium laser perks. I would gladly give up the large laser range for energy cooling as this mech tends to run a bit hot especially with SRM's Which brings me to my next point.. CMON.. give us some better missile perks.. even if its srm 4 reduced heat, although I would prefer to see srm 6 reduced heat at least.

How I see it, the perks for the vindicator St Ives Blues should be as follows

Medium Laser Range +12.5%
Medium Laser Cooldown +10%
Medium Laser Heat Generation -15%
Missile Cooldown +10%
Missile Heat Generation -15%

I think this is being fair without OPing it...

Curious to get some thoughts and possible traction so we can try and convince PGI to make some changes. The St Ives Blues is a great Mech and very fun to play, but at the moment it is hindered by perks that really dont work to the mechs potential.

[MauttyKoray]

I'm annoyed by the Vindicators quirks as a whole. The only viable builds are boating the big weapon that was quirked on it (PPC, LL, etc) or its a joke due to low hardpoint numbers. The backup weapons aren't quirked enough to even be viable.

[Bishop Steiner]

Vindicator Jones, on 07 February 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

I know a lot of people dont like the vindicator chasis, but I think its a great little mech when outfitted with the biggest engine and jumpjets. But the perks for the chasis, primarily the St Ives Blues, really need to be revised.

Energy Range +7.5%
Laser Duration -20%
Missile Cooldown +10%
Large Laser Range +7.5%

Look, lets be honest, the large laser on the St Ives Blues is really a waste of time. Ive tried MANY builds trying to get a build that is effective, but it just doesn't really work the best, as you have limited tonnage and low slung arms. This is a great brawling mech, not a sniper.. 3 Medium lasers are the go here and really we need some medium laser perks. I would gladly give up the large laser range for energy cooling as this mech tends to run a bit hot especially with SRM's Which brings me to my next point.. CMON.. give us some better missile perks.. even if its srm 4 reduced heat, although I would prefer to see srm 6 reduced heat at least.

How I see it, the perks for the vindicator St Ives Blues should be as follows

Medium Laser Range +12.5%
Medium Laser Cooldown +10%
Medium Laser Heat Generation -15%
Missile Cooldown +10%
Missile Heat Generation -15%

I think this is being fair without OPing it...

Curious to get some thoughts and possible traction so we can try and convince PGI to make some changes. The St Ives Blues is a great Mech and very fun to play, but at the moment it is hindered by perks that really dont work to the mechs potential.

Honestly, I ran the VND in the chassis challenge, and traded off between the SIB and 1AA. I keep trading between 2 Large, 1 Medium and 2 SRM4, and 1 LPL, 2 MPL and 2 SRM4. Honestly 3 mediums ain't enough to build the mech around, IMO. If it were the 4-5 mediums of the 1AA or 1R, I might agree. Especially as the larger engine and speed of the 1AA is well suited to boating medium lasers. (I rather like the 1Rs quirks as is).

But the SIB? It packs a LL stock. And has limited hardpoints. I think it would be quite the waste to use them on MLasers only.

Just my 2cts as a Vindi jock.

As for quirks, I am afraid I won't be much help as I tend to be a big advocate on "specific" quirks lining up with the stock weapons the mech was designed around. Instead of squeezing every mech to fit the Meta, I'd rather find ways to quirk the mechs to not need the meta in the configuration they were designed to run.

For me the quirks would look like:
Energy Heat Reduction, 20%
Laser Duration, -25%
Large Laser Duration, -25%
Energy Cooldown, 20%
Missile Cooldown, 20-25%

The range part is OK, but you are still outranged by ER Larges, and have to be exposed quite some time to snipe. I'd rather see a lot lower beam duration, so I can shoot and twist. And Missiles cooldown helps whether you prefer LRMs or SRMs.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 07 February 2015 - 09:27 PM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Vindi Jock here too.

This is what I've been using one my 1R lately.
VND-1R

1AA I use with 4 MPLs and twin AMS. Anti-LRM Support and a bit of a light hunter. Max engine. IMO the only buff the Vindi needs are armor buffs to the CT and STs.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I think a higher engine cap for all of them would do alot on top of any quirks that come up.

The 1AA and SB do better with the higher caps, 295 on the AA and 250 for the SB remove the squishyness of the mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister D, on 07 February 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

I think a higher engine cap for all of them would do alot on top of any quirks that come up.

The 1AA and SB do better with the higher caps, 295 on the AA and 250 for the SB remove the squishyness of the mech.

Never have found any of mine to be squishy, but won't say no to more speed.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2015 - 09:10 PM, said:

The range part is OK, but you are still outranged by ER Larges, and have to be exposed quite some time to snipe. I'd rather see a lot lower bem uration, so I can shoot and twist. And Missiles cooldown helps whether you prefer LRMs or SRMs.

There's the problem, the quirks need to be oriented towards ER Larges not standard LLs. Range is also that thing should be avoided for a limited firepower mech like this, faster firing (cooldown and/or duration) and heat is where its at.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 07 February 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

Vindi Jock here too.

This is what I've been using one my 1R lately.
VND-1R

1AA I use with 4 MPLs and twin AMS. Anti-LRM Support and a bit of a light hunter. Max engine. IMO the only buff the Vindi needs are armor buffs to the CT and STs.

VND-1AA
VND-1R
ST. IVES' BLUES

those are my go to builds. Got to admit the 1X has left me stymied.
But the 1AA is my favorite fast harasser. Probably my most consistent VND; and best KDr.
the 1R has my best damage, at 820 (not meta worthy, but I'm not good at being a patient PPC sniper.)
and the SIB has my highest body count at 6, in a nice match where my teammates figured I'd be dead weight, then I ended up saving all their butts and winning the match.....killing the last 5 enemy solo.

But the 1X..... it's just not a good ballistics chassis, IMO, and MGs are worthless. And it's has too few hardpoints outside the ballistics.

WM Quicksilver, on 07 February 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

There's the problem, the quirks need to be oriented towards ER Larges not standard LLs. Range is also that thing should be avoided for a limited firepower mech like this, faster firing (cooldown and/or duration) and heat is where its at.

Except the mech was not built with ER Larges. I just don't think a mech should do better with weapons it wasn't designed for than it does for those it was designed for. I'm funny like that.

[Aethon]

What annoys me the most is that none of the Vindicator variants have quirks for the ERPPC.

Hopefully, PGI will add the VND-3L, and address this discrepancy. It began production in 3051, so we are less than a year away, assuming the devs are going to be sticklers for strict timeline adherence.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2015 - 09:26 PM, said:

Except the mech was not built with ER Larges. I just don't think a mech should do better with weapons it wasn't designed for than it does for those it was designed for. I'm funny like that.

I'd be ok with that if PGI would fix the problem with those stock weapons, but seeing as how the LL has been one of the crappy lasers since ERLL had its heat dropped...sometimes you gotta work around those things. It's not like mechs didn't upgrade in that fashion anyway in Battletech; how many variants were introduced with their ER counterparts around this timeline even if it made no sense on it?

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 07 February 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

I'd be ok with that if PGI would fix the problem with those stock weapons, but seeing as how the LL has been one of the crappy lasers since ERLL had its heat dropped...sometimes you gotta work around those things. It's not like mechs didn't upgrade in that fashion anyway in Battletech; how many variants were introduced with their ER counterparts around this timeline even if it made no sense on it?

sure, but again how many would run those lasers more efficiently than the weapons that they were engineered around? I got no issue with people running ER Large, but the tradeoff should be they don't operate as efficiently as the standard Large does on the chassis.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Ever spent much time in the BJ's Bishop?

After playing the BJ-1 and 3 with the 235 cap for a long time, and getting used to how they perform at that or slower engine speeds, then I tried out the BJ-X with its 295XL.

It was like the sky parted and behind it was this awesome little mech hidden behind the veil of sluggishness, with awesome responsiveness and great speed, it was like some beautiful thing had emerged, and suddenly that ugly little BlackJack became a powerhouse.

I actually prefer it to any other BJ I own now, mostly due to its ability to keep up with clan mechs, speed is life

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2015 - 09:41 PM, said:

sure, but again how many would run those lasers more efficiently than the weapons that they were engineered around? I got no issue with people running ER Large, but the tradeoff should be they don't operate as efficiently as the standard Large does on the chassis.

It would only make sense if it were a field refit variant. If it was a manufactured variant, then it could be fluffed either way.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 07 February 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

It would only make sense if it were a field refit variant. If it was a manufactured variant, then it could be fluffed either way.

point is there IS no factory variant with an ER Large. This model has a standard large.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

point is there IS no factory variant with an ER Large. This model has a standard large.

Very true, but one must also remember that this is the Hero variant, so under that same logic, it should have PPC quirks not LL quirks if it is meant to be the Vindicator Jones model and not just the 1SIC manufactured model.

Im just pulling s*** out of my a**, but honestly, this variant is still a mech that deserves non-stock oriented quirks since 2 LL is still meek for such a slow design especially compared to its 45 ton competitor.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 07 February 2015 - 10:09 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

point is there IS no factory variant with an ER Large. This model has a standard large.

Indeed, the quirks could use some adjustment to better support this low tonnage, low hardpoint mech that doesn't fit in the PPFLD META though. I love the mech but it underperforms in comparison to most other mediums and sadly without a huge rework and return to lower values and balance, a single PPC or LRM5/10 is quite useless in the grand scheme of mech design. Most mech builds right now are about boating large numbers of smaller weapons, carrying several big ones, or a combination of the 2.

[Vindicator Jones]

Well, I won the chassis challenge for the vindicator in a St Ives with 3 medium lasers and 2 srm 6's. I feel its just a great mech to move around in while using the JJ Im not so worried about the lack of speed as I try and use cover to my advantage.

Im not saying the large lasers or ever er large lasers cant work, but really, if your wanting to use LL or ERLL than go with a cicada 3M, high mounting points, ECM and the ability to carry 3 ERLL. I love that build, fantastic sniper.

I dont mind the PPC build for the 1R as you still have a few medium lasers and an srm to work with up close. I just feel the St Ives build needs to have some major quirk changes.

[Bishop Steiner]

Vindicator Jones, on 07 February 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:

Well, I won the chassis challenge for the vindicator in a St Ives with 3 medium lasers and 2 srm 6's. I feel its just a great mech to move around in while using the JJ Im not so worried about the lack of speed as I try and use cover to my advantage.

Im not saying the large lasers or ever er large lasers cant work, but really, if your wanting to use LL or ERLL than go with a cicada 3M, high mounting points, ECM and the ability to carry 3 ERLL. I love that build, fantastic sniper.

I dont mind the PPC build for the 1R as you still have a few medium lasers and an srm to work with up close. I just feel the St Ives build needs to have some major quirk changes.

Yeah, you won, I was 3rd. Thanks to IRL, ran out of time to close that last 30-40 pts? OK, now that our epeen credentials are set, we gonna talk mechs?

I agree it needs help, but I simply feel the right way to do that is to make it do what it was meant to do BETTER. Simply put you want Mlasers, it's not the best Vindi for that. And much like you say "hey Cicada large lasers better", well the HBK-4P medium lasers better. Heck the CN9-AH does it better with the same srm6s. So, sorry if that dog don't hunt for me.

And like those mechs, that Cicada doesn't have JJs, and the overall combat agility the VND does with it's lasers. With limited hardpoints, I would much prefer they be used in what I consider a more efficient manner. IMO, buffing the medium goes back the the Sean Lang NGNG precedent of campaigning for pet builds on quirks, which I highly dislike. Heck, if your build is so great (and maybe for you it is, run what you like) then it shouldn't need buffs in that department. It does need buffs to do what it is meant to do, better. The SIB's primary weapon system is a LArge Laser. The enhanced, specific quirks should focus on making that more effective. Not making the mech blend in with all the other generic laser vomit builds running as many small weapons as possible.

WM Quicksilver, on 07 February 2015 - 10:07 PM, said:

Very true, but one must also remember that this is the Hero variant, so under that same logic, it should have PPC quirks not LL quirks if it is meant to be the Vindicator Jones model and not just the 1SIC manufactured model.

Im just pulling s*** out of my a**, but honestly, this variant is still a mech that deserves non-stock oriented quirks since 2 LL is still meek for such a slow design especially compared to its 45 ton competitor.

I pulled 3rd in the leaderboard running 2 LLasers, 1Mlaser, and 2 SRM4. So I kinda disagree. Again, the chassis itself honestly is not a great long range sniper. But it is a great medium range skirmisher, and that small difference in heat between large and er large can make all the difference in the world as a skirmisher, since you will be riding the heat scale.

[Orbit Rain]

hey hey I have an epeen too! Look at it! 5th place!

..anyways...Different styles are gonna want different quirks. I'm sure it's easier to gank kills with 3ML and 2 6's. I like the aa with a 15 too, but not artemis, with a tag, and more ammo. Styles differ...that being said, if the SiB gave me a reason to take it instead of the 4J, then I'd be tempted to get it. Would need greater missile cooldown and some missile heat generation reduction.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

I pulled 3rd in the leaderboard running 2 LLasers, 1Mlaser, and 2 SRM4. So I kinda disagree. Again, the chassis itself honestly is not a great long range sniper. But it is a great medium range skirmisher, and that small difference in heat between large and er large can make all the difference in the world as a skirmisher, since you will be riding the heat scale.

Pulling 3rd in a competition against itself doesn't mean the quirks or how you play it is good in the scheme of things.
As far as ERLL vs LL, the difference is 1 DHS worth of heat for 50% more range which is always nice to keep away from that 400-600 optimal range of Clan laser vomit.

Anyone can do fine in a mech even when not utilizing quirks, but then again, that isn't the point of these kind of quirks to begin with is it?