132 replies to this topic

[HlynkaCG]

Before you guys all reach for your flamers and pitch forks please hear me out...

I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that the Firestarter is the best IS light mech by a wide margin. In fact, it is one of the the best mechs in the game period really second only to the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow in all-around combat effectiveness. It has excellent hit-boxes, excellent hard-points, generous quirks, and can keep up with (if not flat out-run) every mech in the game excluding the spider.

I expect to catch a fair amount of flak for this opinion, but I see this as a problem.

As it stands there is no real game-play reason for a player to choose a Jenner, (or any other light for that matter) over a Firestarter. Ideally the choice between running a Fire-starter and running a Jenner would be a trade off between fire power and speed. Unfortunately with Hit-Reg and HSR being what they are there is no way to make other lights faster without introducing additional problems, and barring speed there is no real way to buff other lights up to the Firestarter's level without continuing to drive TTK through the floor or making the IS zerg rush even cheesier than it already is.


As such I would propose that the Firestarter receive a minor reduction in engine cap, I'm thinking somewhere in the 260 - 280 range, to create a greater differentiation in speeds between the Firestarter and mechs like the Jenner, Spider, or Locust.

...and Go!

Edit:
The new meta?

Edited by HlynkaCG, 02 March 2015 - 09:06 AM.

[SolCrusher]

I run standards in my Firestarters. It's priceless when the guy i just opened up blows off my shoulder expecting me to fall like a sack of potatoes but I stand there and finish him off while he's over heated.

[Koniving]

I only use up to 230 engines in my Firestarter anyway, standards to XLs, and pack on some interesting firepower while still solo'ing anything except the Stormcrow or Mad Dog (streak boats, yeah, scary). Used to kick metal with just the Firestarter, but after quirks it became easy street and I'm not taking pride in mass kills/damage anymore.

[Lordred]

Be ready for people to hate you, just as they hate me.

I would totally be down for a change to engine rating caps for all of the mechs. (Most would go down, some would go up)

But, people dislike the idea in general.


Edit:


I would like to see this personally.


Locusts
LCT-1E: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-1M: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-1V: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-3M: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-3S: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-PB: 40-160 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h) (ECM)

Commandos
COM-1B: 50-175 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
COM-1D: 50-175 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
COM-2D: 50-150 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h) (ECM)
COM-3A: 50-175 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
COM-DK: 50-200 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)

Spiders
SDR-5D: 60-240 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h) (ECM)
SDR-5K: 60-270 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
SDR-5V: 60-270 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
SDR-AN: 60-270 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)

Urbanmechs
UM-R60: 60-90 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h)
UM-R60L: 60-90 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h)
UM-R63: 60-90 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h)

Firestarters
FS9-A: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-E: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-H: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-K: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-S: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)

Jenners
JR7-D: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
JR7-F: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
JR7-K: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
JR7-O: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)

Panthers
PNT-8Z: 70-175 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
PNT-9R: 70-175 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
PNT-10K: 70-175 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Ravens
RVN-2X: 70-210 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
RVN-3L: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h) (ECM)
RVN-4X: 70-210 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
RVN-HG: 70-315 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)

Edited by Lordred, 02 March 2015 - 09:15 AM.

[Tahribator]

I don't agree with the lower engine cap. The FS9-S makes up for the bulk of the FS horde out here, why not just get rid of the S' ridiculous 30% MPL heat generation bonus? The quirks of the A and H can be trimmed a bit in the meantime to bring them in-line with the Jenner and to keep people from flocking to them.

These overpowered quirks are the only reason these 'Mechs are so popular, the non-Ember Firestarters were as rare as unicorns on the battlefield before.

Edited by Tahribator, 02 March 2015 - 09:16 AM.

[Havyek]

I'd prefer that other lights have their quirks looked at before simply saying "Nerf the Firestarter!!"

Jenners need more love, and IMO Ravens should get some quirks to leg armor besides a slight point buff to internals.

About all IS lights have going for them is speed, Clan lights have more tonnage to work with and can carry firepower similar to a decently armed medium.

[FupDup]

Lordred, on 02 March 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

Be ready for people to hate you, just as they hate me.

I would totally be down for a change to engine rating caps for all of the mechs. (Most would go down, some would go up)

But, people dislike the idea in general.

Edit:

I would like to see this personally.

-stuff-

There are two problems with global engine cap nerfs on all lights:

1. It makes the light class a lot easier to kill than usual, because faster targets are just harder to hit by nature. Also, they lose firepower because of lower cooling, due to 1.4 Poordubs outside of the engine, because of sub-250 engines being horrible in that not all 10 sinks are internal for them.

2. Clan Omnimechs are not negatively impacted in any way, so they would be indirectly buffed in comparison. In this case, the Arctic Cheetah would absolutely curbstomp your proposed IS light caps, while using its stock engine. Even with engine customizing, the Cheetah would be a top-tier light as it is...

[Lordred]

FupDup, on 02 March 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

There are two problems with global engine cap nerfs on all lights:

1. It makes the light class a lot easier to kill than usual, because faster targets are just harder to hit by nature. Also, they lose firepower because of lower cooling, due to 1.4 Poordubs outside of the engine, because of sub-250 engines being horrible in that not all 10 sinks are internal for them.

If you are staying in the fight that long in a light. You are doing it wrong.

FupDup, on 02 March 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

2. Clan Omnimechs are not negatively impacted in any way, so they would be indirectly buffed in comparison. In this case, the Arctic Cheetah would absolutely curbstomp your proposed IS light caps, while using its stock engine. Even with engine customizing, the Cheetah would be a top-tier light as it is...

Clan Omnimechs cannot swap engines, this point is moot.

[focuspark]

Negative quirks on their turn and twist rate would put Firestarters where they belong.

[FupDup]

Lordred, on 02 March 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

If you are staying in the fight that long in a light. You are doing it wrong.

Lower speed makes it harder to get out of a fight.

Lordred, on 02 March 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

Clan Omnimechs cannot swap engines, this point is moot.

Some would be faster out of the box, so they wouldn't need to swap them.

The Cheetah for example starts out with a 240, giving it 142 kph after speed tweak. ggclose.

Edited by FupDup, 02 March 2015 - 09:26 AM.

[Malckovich]

The quirks are definitely the issue, not the engine caps imo. Hit reg and hit boxes also playing a factor, but the quirks are the heart of the issue. Small nerfs are needed.

[Lordred]

FupDup, on 02 March 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Lower speed makes it harder to get out of a fight.



Some would be faster out of the box, so they wouldn't need to swap them.

The Cheetah for example starts out with a 240, giving it 142 kph after speed tweak. ggclose.

Try a slower light, you might be supprised, I practice what I preach, at speeds below 145kph, HSR starts to work a lot better. You will become a better pilot.

[FupDup]

Lordred, on 02 March 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

Try a slower light, you might be supprised, I practice what I preach, at speeds below 145kph, HSR starts to work a lot better. You will become a better pilot.

Everyone would become a better pilot if they had to try to kill people while using only one hand instead of both hands, that's not the point. The point is that you're blanket-nerfing a relatively unpopular weight class (excluding the Clan Omnis that don't get affected) for no good reason.

[focuspark]

Malckovich, on 02 March 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

The quirks are definitely the issue, not the engine caps imo. Hit reg and hit boxes also playing a factor, but the quirks are the heart of the issue. Small nerfs are needed.

Agreed. -10% to Torso Pitch and Yaw, and -15% to Turn Rate should do nicely. It's a dash in, open fire, dash out... but another light would out maneuver it any day - all hail the return of the Jenner as King of the Lights.

If we're quirking things, can we please help my beloved Commando?!

Lordred, on 02 March 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

Try a slower light, you might be supprised, I practice what I preach, at speeds below 145kph, HSR starts to work a lot better. You will become a better pilot.

Russ mentioned a perf improvement last townhall. This most likely means faster top speed. Combined with the introduction of MASC and I expect to see > 200 KPH sprinters in the near future.

[lsp]

I'm all for any nerf to the Firestarters, they are ridiculous. Light mechs shouldn't be able to brawl, period. Let alone do 600 damage and 6 kills.

Edited by lsp, 02 March 2015 - 09:37 AM.

[Lordred]

FupDup, on 02 March 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

Everyone would become a better pilot if they had to try to kill people while using only one hand instead of both hands, that's not the point. The point is that you're blanket-nerfing a relatively unpopular weight class (excluding the Clan Omnis that don't get affected) for no good reason.

The biggest nerf to the light class was IPPC (Instantaneous Pin Point Convergence) It just shouldn't be instant, that would be the single biggest Buff for lights.

The only reason people defend the fact that they become un-hit-able due to wonky HSR, is that it is also the only way they can survive most of the time.

Just make IPPC go away, (we can keep PPC, but not the instant part of it) Convergence was host side they rmoved it for server performance, just make it client side +delay of 1.5-2.5 seconds to switch from 1000m to 80m

Edited by Lordred, 02 March 2015 - 09:42 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Yes, because lights are so overpowered and are completely taking over the queues and games with their, powerful, powerful, 240 and 120 range pulse lasers.

The Firestarter is the best light. This doesn't make the Firestarter overpowered, it still is lacking in general game impact compared to any other class. There are multiple mechs better than it, and this has been shown time and time again in competitive and/or high tier play.

lsp, on 02 March 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

I'm all for any nerf to the Firestarters, they are ridiculous. Light mechs shouldn't be able to brawl, period. Let alone do 600 damage and 6 kills.

I... what?

[FupDup]

Lordred, on 02 March 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

The biggest nerf to the light class was IPPC (Instantaneous Pin Point Convergence) It just shouldn't be instant, that would be the single biggest Buff for lights.

Depends on what it got replaced with...

This is beyond the scope of the thread either way. The point is that a global engine nerf to IS lights would just make an unpopular class even more unpopular, unless an equally big buff got put in place at the same time.

Keep in mind that they have to compete against the Arctic Cheetah within the light class, and they need to be able to significantly outrun Stormcrows (who come stock with a very big engine) or else I'd rather just pilot a Stormcrow instead (because more armor and guns).

[Adiuvo]

Lordred, on 02 March 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

The only reason people defend the fact that they become un-hit-able due to wonky HSR, is that it is also the only way they can survive most of the time.

I'll just like to nip this in the bud early in the thread.

Ask any of these players if they have problems hitting lights.

http://twitch.tv/heimdelight
http://twitch.tv/celyth
http://twitch.tv/prtn_spz
http://twitch.tv/twinkyoverlord
http://twitch.tv/jagerxii

[Jman5]

I think lights are in a pretty precarious position as it is, so we should avoid nerfing them to make another light more competitive. The Firestarter 9-A is good at what it does, but it has a somewhat limited role because of its size and extremely short weapon range.

The key is to bring some other lights up to speed in their own way. I think the Jenner has some generous Center Torso hitboxes making them pretty easy to aim at. There should be a CT quirk buff that ups it's hitpoints there.