56 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

How about finding a common sense happy medium?

So, we go from one extreme, 40-50% (before skills and modules, mind you) cooldowns on Dragons and Centurions and Hunchbacks and Thunderbolts..... to 4% Cooldown for min-maxed Missile Summoner (used as an example as the only "stackable pod quirks on the chassis)

I get the "plan" is incremental. But how long between the incremental creeps? Are they going to be evaluated every patch? Or will it be months before they cycle around again?
And do the Increments really need to be...this small? Small incremental changes only really work if they are being constantly tweaked and adjusted. 2-3 months between (or worse, "oops we forgot about it") just doesn't work.

Especially since the chassis we are starting with are known bottom dwellers. These ARE the tier 4 and 5s of Clan Omnis.

Lets use a couple examples:

Exhibit A: The OLD TDR-9s, with it's nonsensical 50% Heat Reduction to it's ER PPCs.
Exhibit B: The "Meta" Stacked Summoner Prime/Bravo combo with a total of 4% MIssile Range Buff and 4% tighter spreads.

Common Sense Medium: Somewhere in the 46% differential between the two extremes? (Which, are called extreme for a reason). For instance, a basic 10% Missile Buff on the Bravo Arms as Missiles are it's primary weapons, and say, 5% on the Primes LT as Missiles are it's tertiary weapon system (or none at all, and focus the Prime on it's right and left arm) and you get what? A Meta-spawning 15% cooldown to Missiles.

Big scary.

There are some mechs like the DWF that one has to be careful with overlapping pod bonuses. But it's a tier 1 ANYHOW, and thus would be getting few, if any quirks. Thus, those who will get in a lather over "but WHAT IF TIMBER WOLF", well that's a bad strawman argument that just needs to be eliminated before you utter it.

As for mid tier Mechs with lots hardpoints, like the Hellbringer? Um, common sense, they get lesser percentages than lower tier mechs...just like with the IS Quirks.

THAT is how you win the Internet with quirks.

A common sense Summoner Prime Quirk Build that is conservative?
SMN-Prime Omnipods

Spoiler

[tdAdditional Structure +8[/td][tdLBX Velocity +10%[/td]

RA Omnipod (1E)	RT Omnipod	CT Omnipod	LT Omnipod (1M)	LA Omnipod (1B)	RL Omnipod	LL Omnipod
Additional Structure +11	Acceleration Rate +20%		Additional Structure +11
ERPPC Velocity +7.5%	Acceleration Rate +5%	Deceleration Rate +20%		LBX Cooldown +10%
ER PPC Heat Reduction +10%	Deceleration Rate +5%	Speed +5%	]	Ballistic Cooldown +10%
Energy Cooldown +2%[/color]
				LBX Spread -5%
				Arm Movement Rate Pitch +2%

Mind you, not saying that is "the build" for the Summoner, just using it as an example piece.

So, no this is not a "PGI need fire people!" Post, but it also isn't a Rose Colored Spectacles one, either, but an attempt at finding the objective middle ground.

Which of course means, it will be doubly as unpopular a position as taking either extreme.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 March 2015 - 07:53 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

See i agree.. i don't actually really care about the summoner personally (think its ugly as sin anyway) but its definitely not in a good place, and these quirks.. dont change my opinion of it.

The adder is what has me most fuming. I like PPCs, and i was thinking "Hey, the adder prime comes with twin PPCs, its famous for it almost as much as the Warhawk, SURELY its going to get some velocity and heat reduction for it.. might finally be usable!"

15% stacked velocity? little bit low but, hey, thats fine. its incremental.

WTF no heat reduction?? NONE? anyone played an Adder with 2x CERPPCs? .. guess ill.. uh.. carry on using my Panther?

[Bishop Steiner]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 March 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

See i agree.. i don't actually really care about the summoner personally (think its ugly as sin anyway) but its definitely not in a good place, and these quirks.. dont change my opinion of it.

The adder is what has me most fuming. I like PPCs, and i was thinking "Hey, the adder prime comes with twin PPCs, its famous for it almost as much as the Warhawk, SURELY its going to get some velocity and heat reduction for it.. might finally be usable!"

15% stacked velocity? little bit low but, hey, thats fine. its incremental.

WTF no heat reduction?? NONE? anyone played an Adder with 2x CERPPCs? .. guess ill.. uh.. carry on using my Panther?

exactly. Also notice my lack of rhetoric title has resulted in a lack of business, lol?

Guess I need to add histrionics.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 March 2015 - 07:54 AM.

[Jetfire]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 March 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

See i agree.. i don't actually really care about the summoner personally (think its ugly as sin anyway) but its definitely not in a good place, and these quirks.. dont change my opinion of it.

The adder is what has me most fuming. I like PPCs, and i was thinking "Hey, the adder prime comes with twin PPCs, its famous for it almost as much as the Warhawk, SURELY its going to get some velocity and heat reduction for it.. might finally be usable!"

15% stacked velocity? little bit low but, hey, thats fine. its incremental.

WTF no heat reduction?? NONE? anyone played an Adder with 2x CERPPCs? .. guess ill.. uh.. carry on using my Panther?

Honestly I see the lack of a heat reduction on the Adder as correct and really appreciate the accel/decel buffs. It works much better already to fire a few volleys then move move move. It will be better as a harrassment sniper now. Heat buffs for clans in general should be avoided at all costs in my opinion.

[BARBAR0SSA]

No mention of how they put cooldown quirks on mechs that already run super hot and how no one runs the cool down modules since you're waiting for heat to dissipate....

For shame Bishop!


I'm super curious if they do even play/spectate CW matches or just got by the #'s which isn't that great of an idea; when I was dropping in FRR...there were a LOT of bad bad build....so so many lrm boats and just odd setups, I think I saw a Dragon 1N with 2 erPPCs.

Go watch NS battle some clans, they have their act together for how to play IS in CW, a large group of 1Ns pumping out that 20damage per second...well it just wrecks everything...I think I even saw a squirrel explode.


For mechs like the hellbringer I'd hope the consider it much like a Dragon 1N or Wolverine 6k, where they have one glaring weakness, HBR has all but 1E hardpoint on the left side, LT gone takes out ECM and most of its firepower....unless you bring UAC5s that hit like UAC2s for some reason.

Edited by shad0w4life, 17 March 2015 - 08:10 AM.

[orcrist86]

Bishop, clan mechs start of with better base stats than is. A 5% increase for Chan's is closer to 10% compared to is. Yes the numbers are timid and weird, but that's what happens when you try to do maths that adjust for a curve

[Mcgral18]

orcrist86, on 17 March 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

Bishop, clan mechs start of with better base stats than is. A 5% increase for Chan's is closer to 10% compared to is. Yes the numbers are timid and weird, but that's what happens when you try to do maths that adjust for a curve

Easy way to avoid that: Don't quirk range.


Perhaps focus on reducing the blanket nerfs all Clams got for the bad robots.

[Bishop Steiner]

orcrist86, on 17 March 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

Bishop, clan mechs start of with better base stats than is. A 5% increase for Chan's is closer to 10% compared to is. Yes the numbers are timid and weird, but that's what happens when you try to do maths that adjust for a curve

Except they really don't. Please demonstrate to me how any outside the UnHoly trinity are really starting better?

Mcgral18, on 17 March 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

Easy way to avoid that: Don't quirk range.


Perhaps focus on reducing the blanket nerfs all Clams got for the bad robots.

especially since range increases on a good chunk of weapons are already useless, like ERPPCs, LB-X, SRMSs, MGs......

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 March 2015 - 08:38 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 March 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

Except they really don't. Please demonstrate to me how any outside the UnHoly trinity are really starting better?

Can you name a stock Inner Sphere Light Mech that can survive an Adder Prime's twin ER PPC?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 March 2015 - 08:39 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 March 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

Can you name a stock Inner Sphere Light Mech that can survive an Adder Prime's twin ER PPC?

Wouldn't that be all of them? Even the Lolcust comes with 20 front CT armour stock, and a STD engine.

Unless you mean TT, which would still be most of them.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 March 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

Can you name a stock Inner Sphere Light Mech that can survive an Adder Prime's twin ER PPC?

Yup. Almost all of them, since the Adder still has to hit them. I don't see too many Comp tier players getting worried over Adders, while they run their Firestarters, Jenners and Ravens.

Mcgral18, on 17 March 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Wouldn't that be all of them? Even the Lolcust comes with 20 front CT armour stock, and a STD engine.

Unless you mean TT, which would still be most of them.

and doesn't even factor in hit reg, 3D warfare, terrain, JJs, hardpoint location, lack of arm reflex while tracking speeding targets.......

[Widowmaker1981]

Jetfire, on 17 March 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Honestly I see the lack of a heat reduction on the Adder as correct and really appreciate the accel/decel buffs. It works much better already to fire a few volleys then move move move. It will be better as a harrassment sniper now. Heat buffs for clans in general should be avoided at all costs in my opinion.

Im sorry, but you are just wrong. Not all quirks are created equal, and the 2 standout ones are Energy Heat Reduction, and Ballistic Cooldown. Check out the IS mechs that people actually use, and see which quirks they have. They basically all have at least one of those 2, outside of a few edge cases with massive missile cooldown quirks. To not give the adder any heat reduction is to say "just carry on using the Panther if you want to play a PPC using light mech, nothing to see here"

Im not saying it needs exactly the same quirks as the Panther, but it needs something - outside of quirks its trading 20kph top speed, much better hitboxes/small model and the ability to jump against semi useless spash on the PPCs, the C-XL (which is largely irrelevant on a light since 90% of deaths are due to legging) and a small amount of heat efficiency (PNT has 10x 2.0DHS = 20, adder has 8x2.0DHS + 6x1.4DHS = 23.) Id say with ZERO quirks they are about balanced, more or less. Now go compare the PNTs quirks with the Adders and get back to me.

(id actually also say the IS ERPPC should be reduced to 12 or 13 heat tbh, since it IS flat out worse than the C-ERPPC)

Edit: i did forget to mention that the adder has better placed hardpoints, which is of course a point in its favour as well - so maybe, without any quirks, it is superior to the Panther, but only just. Not enough to justify the enormous disparity between their level of quirks.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 17 March 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[Kain Demos]

I pretty much said the same thing in another thread but only needed a few lines. On one end of the spectrum you had 50-75% changes so I have no idea how 4% is the middle ground on that. Honestly if they gave those Adder Prime arms -7.5% Energy heat generation I would say they nailed it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kain Thul, on 17 March 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

I pretty much said the same thing in another thread but only needed a few lines. On one end of the spectrum you had 50-75% changes so I have no idea how 4% is the middle ground on that. Honestly if they gave those Adder Prime arms -7.5% Energy heat generation I would say they nailed it.

Yup. I'm all for small and incremental. And PGI did not false advertise.... Microscopic IS small, after all.....

[Evan20k]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 March 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

exactly. Also notice my lack of rhetoric title has resulted in a lack of business, lol?

Guess I need to add histrionics.

Honestly, this is what I like the most about your posts. You make your point cleanly and concisely without needing to wave a proverbial loaded gun around.

[STEF_]

Bishop, I'm having doubts about pgi guys...if they are currently playing thier own game or not.
Clan quirks are just ...disappointing, and some of them don't make sense.

Because, supposedly, quirks help to enhance sub-par mechs. And these ones don't.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 17 March 2015 - 10:27 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Evan20k, on 17 March 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

Honestly, this is what I like the most about your posts. You make your point cleanly and concisely without needing to wave a proverbial loaded gun around.

I appreciate that. I see too much black and white reasoning, and very few shades of grey, in most forum posts and arguments.
(Of course, i see that IRL too, as a pro-gun hunter/shooting nut who also is totally for background checks...because sadly some people do not have any business owning guns, be it through criminal past (sorry, don't care if you "reform", guns are not a god given right, and if you committed violent crime, you gave up the privilege) or mental health. Yet to either side of the debate, you are a sell out to say that, lol)

[Widowmaker1981]

I honestly think PGI are too scared of the (unwarranted) backlash from certain extremely vocal, extremely IS biased members of the community to ever give good enough quirks to the bad clan mechs that they become viable choices. Its a shame, i think we are just going to have to wait till they release the later, more optimised mechs before we have any real choice for CW drop decks. Its still SCRx3/TBR or HBRx2/SCRx2 - anything else is gimping yourself, unfortunately.

Not to say there arent people biased for clan too, but they tend to be outnumbered by the rabid IS fanboys... from what i know there are a large number of older BTech players who hated clans from the moment of their inception into TT, and think they 'ruined their game'

[Bishop Steiner]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 March 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

I honestly think PGI are too scared of the (unwarranted) backlash from certain extremely vocal, extremely IS biased members of the community to ever give good enough quirks to the bad clan mechs that they become viable choices. Its a shame, i think we are just going to have to wait till they release the later, more optimised mechs before we have any real choice for CW drop decks. Its still SCRx3/TBR or HBRx2/SCRx2 - anything else is gimping yourself, unfortunately.

I'm about as vocal an IS pilot out there. I do TRY to keep my bias under wraps, mostly, though. (And being a schitzo with a Clan Alt acct means I usually can see both sides. I just prefer IS.)

Widowmaker1981, on 17 March 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

Not to say there arent people biased for clan too, but they tend to be outnumbered by the rabid IS fanboys... from what i know there are a large number of older BTech players who hated clans from the moment of their inception into TT, and think they 'ruined their game'

Ya think the Clan Wolf Whiner Galaxy QQ over the Clan XL nerf might be a little indication, lol?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 March 2015 - 10:42 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 March 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

I'm about as vocal an IS pilot out there. I do TRY to keep my bias under wraps, mostly, though. (And being a schitzo with a Clan Alt acct means I usually can see both sides. I just prefer IS.)


Ya think the Clan Wolf Whiner Galaxy QQ over the Clan XL nerf might be a little indication, lol?

i want to prefer clans. I prefer the aesthetics of their mechs, which is all that matters to me since im really not a roleplayer... but i find that i just do much, much better in IS mechs than i do in clan ones. Its probably partly playstyle - but i personally cannot justify the opinion that clans mechs are so superior to IS ones that a lot of people have, my experiences just dont bear it out.

And i wasnt referring to the backlash from you, you seem mostly sensible tbh.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 17 March 2015 - 10:47 AM.