36 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

In TT Charging was a physical attack that could be done.

Why I think charging is useful and fun;

If you have no arms, and no weapons, and are as good as dead, no jump jets and you dont feel like retreating, charging was a way to do something, anything, before you die.

What charging is:

Mech runs at full speed toward enemy mech. During charging weapons fire is disabled (TT rule), Jumping will cancel out a charge. When mech succesfully rams into other mech (friendly/enemy) collision damage is done and both mechs have a chance to fall over.

How I think charging should be implemented:

Mech will throttle up, key press to innitiate charge, when mech reachs 80% max speed charging animation will play and weapons fire will be disabled, dropping below 80% speed cancels charging, jumping, will cancel charge. When mech bump into enemy mech, both mech have a chance to fall, and collision damage is dealt. Charge damage should also factor in movement of other mech. On comming collision, sideswipe, rear bump.

[Ghost]

This would enable the use of the Charger. Oh yeah baby.

[DCleric]

I like the idea of a charge and a DFA I do not like the idea of a charging animation. and I hope there was no automated piloting in that charge. I want to drive my own mech all the way to impact.

[ice trey]

Hmm...

While I do like the idea of Charging coming back into the Vidya, I must admit that I have difficulty imagining how the code could be done. I mean, how does the computer register who is the charger, and who was the charged. What happens when both units charge each other at the same time?

Likewise, there were things that balanced charging in the tabletop like having to wait until the opponent moved first before you could charge them. I'm not sure how charging would affect Mechwarrior gameplay. Would the old AC20 be abandoned in favor of turning Mechwarrior into a destruction derby of collisions and body checks?

Still, I like the idea a whole not more than the DFA; it was useless in both tabletop and PC games.

[Malavai Fletcher]

I dont see why moving at full speed should mean you cant fire your weps,if the worry is your getting mechs zipping around nailing shots everytime just make the terrain alot more uneven,not being able to use weps and move at top speeds would really mess things up for lights.

ice trey, on 27 November 2011 - 11:16 AM, said:

Still, I like the idea a whole not more than the DFA; it was useless in both tabletop and PC games.

The DFA in MW4 was a hugely damaging and viable tactic,a medium landing on a heavy would cause massive damage,across a huge portion of the mech,plus it would send both of you crashing to the floor.If the mech you were landing on had some degree of damage there was a good chance to kill it,of course the damage you would take and the exploding mech you landed on would almost cetainly kill you too,kind of what i would expect too happen.You had to be spot on with the DFA but with practise you had a good chance of hitting the sweet spot.

Collision damage(or bumpage as it was refered to over our comms) was allways a factor in MW4,teams having -500 points before contact was even made was not a rare sight,But i allways thought it wasn't quite potent enough,i mean,c'mon,two 70t mechs running into each other and both walking away relatively unscathed.The damage should scale on the size of mechs clashing,a direwolf clashing with a kitfox should see the kitfox comming out of it either on its backside if it was full contact,or taking heavy damage to one side if it was sideswiped,t he direwolf should take some damage but nothing as catostrophic as the kitfox.

Maybe with collisions between similar size mechs that have arms or protruding weapons at a similar height there could be a chance that the mechs become stuck on eachb other,players would have to either try and rip themselves apart or rely on team mates to blow the other mechs arm off to free their team mate.

[ice trey]

I have never successfully been able to land a DFA on another 'mech in Mechwarrior 4.

I've just bounced off at best, and missed outright at worst.

I've never seen a DFA do anything significant.

[Malavai Fletcher]

Well i DFA'd a teammate in a timberwolf,i was in a scat,i destroyed his hud,knocked 50-60% of his armour off his ct,lt,rt,took both his missles launchers out and knocked his **** flat on the ground,pretty signifigant damage against a fresh mech 30tonnes heavier than me.

If you never saw the damage a DFA could cause you cant have played many games.

Edited by Malavai Fletcher, 27 November 2011 - 01:00 PM.

[ManDaisy]

MW4 dfa was horribly implemented, unless you hit "the sweet spot" it would be as if nothing happened at all and most of the time nothing happened. Granted I did land a few before but when you do land it, mw4 had a thing for TNT rigged mechs so even that was pretty useless.

Also, once you did land it even if you puffed your jets for a soft landing after finishing, you automatically fell like an ***** anyway.

Edited by ManDaisy, 27 November 2011 - 01:25 PM.

[Malavai Fletcher]

Why was it horribly implemented?

The way it was you had to learn the move well,you couldn't just stick jets on your mech run at someone and knock them flat on their face,you had to spend time learning the technique.

But yes,falling on someones shoulder and not registering any damage to either mech was a bit silly,i guess that was more due to the games limitations at the time rather than the developers trying to offend die hard warriors by saying hit him here and you cause him huge pain,hit him here and he feels nothing.

I am glad it was implemented as it was,to leave it out and see mechs landing on one another and never doing damage would be an even bigger crime!

And of course you shouldn't be able to pull off a landing after executing a DFA,a large amount of tonnage landing on an object on 2 legs that isn't expecting it,you are gonna fall on your ****,period.

[VYCanis]

well the justification for not being able to fire your weapons during a charge could probably be that you are "bracing for impact"

in a humanoid mech this might be putting a shoulder forward, head down, arms close to body.

in a birdlike mech it might simply be nosing down and off to the side

point being you aren't just running into an opponent, you are full on throwing your weight as hard as you can into your opponent with the intent to hurt them as much as possible, while mitigating damage to yourself.

Edited by VYCanis, 28 November 2011 - 05:28 AM.

[Malavai Fletcher]

VYCanis, on 28 November 2011 - 05:27 AM, said:

well the justification for not being able to fire your weapons during a charge could probably be that you are "bracing for impact"

in a humanoid mech this might be putting a shoulder forward, head down, arms close to body.

in a birdlike mech it might simply be nosing down and off to the side

point being you aren't just running into an opponent, you are full on throwing your weight as hard as you can into your opponent with the intent to hurt them as much as possible, while mitigating damage to yourself.

I can understand this to a point,but it kind of depends on how far you are charging from,it should take a short while to get to top speed and really you shouldn't need to be braced for the whole charge before you hit,just in the last few seconds before contact is made,in some mechs with head down and shoulder forward your cockpit view would be of the ground,what if the enemey sees you comming and just steps out the way?you would run straight past them in charge mode without the ability to fire weapons,while the other team has a good laugh and shoots you in the ****.

[Raeven]

Not being able to fire your weapons while charging or DFA'ing is one of those tabletop limitations that really doesn't fit well in a simulation. While I'm a huge fan of keeping to the rules of the TT, this one just doesn't fit the spirit of the simulation.

I'm with Fletcher, Canis, and Daisy. There could be a key that you can press while running, that activates a "brace for impact" animation on your "Mech. This same key could be used by opponents to defend against charges, to mitigate the amount of damage taken a bit. The animation should take a couple of seconds or more to activate, to prevent instant shields against charging.

Damage could either be simulated by speed and weight of the attacker vs. speed and weight of the defender, or you could do it like the table top rules since you now have a charge indicator. However much distance you travelled in a (mostly) straight line while charging would act as the multiplier for how much damage your opponent takes.

[Malavai Fletcher]

I dont like the idea of an animation,you should have to physically torso twist and lean your mech with mouse/joystick,this should come down totally to piloting skill to pull off.

BTW,when you say animation you mean like a cut scene that you view from a third person perspective?

[VYCanis]

Yeah i liked the brace for impact button. and there's nothing stopping someone from running max speed, firing along the way, and then bracing the last hundred meters into the target.

awkward vision angles or arms being in the way would actually be a neat drawback for charging, considering all the damage you are capable of. (it's effectively a landbound DFA minus the easy decap chance)

also like the idea of being able to brace against another opponent's charge, especially considering some of the speed disparities between mechs, some would never be able to dodge. Though it should be limited to mechs you are facing and probably wouldn't reduce the damage quite as much as it would prevent you from getting knocked over as easily.

otherwise just bumping into a mech at regular movement should damage both parties almost equally though favoring the heavier mech involved.

(edit)

in terms of animation, i didn't mean like a canned animation between both mechs, i just meant that if you are charging, your running animation changes a bit to look like you are about to check a dude into a wall until you either slam into that dude, or decide to go back to running as normal.

Edited by VYCanis, 28 November 2011 - 01:40 PM.

[verybad]

Yeach, no fun running around into each other rather than fighting. It's got the potential for abuse in the game also. No thanks.

[ManDaisy]

abuse? How?

[UncleKulikov]

There shouldn't be a keypress, weapons disabled, or an animation. Moving that fast should make your weapons horribly inaccurate, but still usable. Basically, I feel a charge should be you trying to collide with a target at the highest speed possible.

[VYCanis]

he's got a point.

it brings to mind mechs customized(and a few stock variants too) into adhoc landbound anti-assault mech cruise missiles for all the damage they could do in a charge


Maybe to qualify as a charge and not merely a bump or crash you need to maintain top speed in a vaguely straight line for a given distance.


The thing is, its incredibly easy to just run at someone at full speed, ridiculous easy. If you want to really have the full blown effect of a charge, there really should be some mitigating factors for it to prevent it from being an easy solution available all the time. And it also makes sense to have running into someone be different from charging into someone. Think about yourself. Think about yourself trying to bodyslam a door with the intent to bust it down. Do you run into the door the same way as you'd run down an open hallway? of course not. you'd end up with a broken face and the door would probably be fine. But get your body positioned right and you'll probably just end up with a slightly sore shoulder but have a busted down door for your trouble.

Edited by VYCanis, 28 November 2011 - 02:03 PM.

[UncleKulikov]

VYCanis, on 28 November 2011 - 01:57 PM, said:

Maybe to qualify as a charge and not merely a bump or crash you need to maintain top speed in a vaguely straight line for a given distance.


The thing is, its incredibly easy to just run at someone at full speed, ridiculous easy. If you want to really have the full blown effect of a charge, there really should be some mitigating factors for it to prevent it from being an easy solution available all the time.

I'm sure it would be easy to hit someone standing still, as it should be. But if turning is limited, and the opponent is also moving, it becomes much more difficult (and nearly impossible if the target is faster than you).

[verybad]

ManDaisy, on 28 November 2011 - 01:46 PM, said:

abuse? How?

People designing mechs to just run into a mech and disrupt other methods of play. I've seen it happen. Essentially they run upto you and pin you somewhere while firing shortranged DPS weapons. )eg Machinggun boats) I'm not a favor of charging being effective in the game.

Other tactics I've seen are running your damaged mech up to an enemy to catch them in the explosion. No thanks. Make charges do little damage please.