69 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Ultimatum X, on 31 March 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

Unfortunately this just can't happen.


I know it doesn't seem like it in the solo queue, or even at times in the public team queue, but the CERLLAS is already exceptionally powerful.


If you want to see the power of the CERLLAS harnessed, you can watch the alpine match with QQ vs. Clan Kodiak in the recent RHoD match they had (great matches by the way).



You'll notice QQs Hellbringers letting loose Quadruple CERLLAS alphas all the way out to 900m with very low damage drop off.



The CERLLAS is the weapon of choice for long range engagements, that's typically tournaments and CW or players who simply like long range in the solo queue.


It needs to be less efficient heatwise, because it's ridiculously light, it only takes up ONE crit slot and the base range + mod = 814m.



The only drawback is the long beam duration at 1.5s, what that does primarily is make it very inefficient at close range and allow for spread.

However, if you compare it to the IS ER LLAS at 1.25s though, for what you get from the weapon it's overall still clearly superior.





3x IS ERLLAS
15 Tons
6 Crit Slots (can't be mounted in heads)
27 damage
24 heat
1.125 damage per heat
1.25s beam duration
675m range, 740m with module

2x CERLLAS
8 Tons
2 Crit Slots (can be mounted in heads, ex: SCR, HBR, DWF)
22 damage
20 heat
1.1 damage per heat
1.5s beam duration
740m range, 814m with module


The IS ERLLAS is slightly (barely noticable) more efficient damage per heat (+2.3% more efficient damage per heat).
They have a better alpha by 5 points, and a shorter burn time.


The CERLLAS weigh nearly HALF, and take up ONE THIRD of the Crit slots.
They have the ability to be mounted in heads (very useful).
Have an additional 10% range after factoring modules.


Now if you wanted to go nuts, and build a highly specialized build the way people do for tournaments & CW, you can spend 16 tons vs. the IS 15 tons and get FOUR CERLLAS, or you can still stay under weight at 12 tons and get 3 of them in 3 crit slots...



I think these are the right matches, I can't check fully because I'm at work.

You constantly over value range and undervalue heat efficiency and precision

In 95% of situations the 674m range (mod + TC1) of the C-LPL is more than plenty, the extra range on the C-ERLL is pretty much a complete waste, most of the time . Certainly nothing that makes up for the reduced heat efficiency and horrible duration. There is literally one clan build that uses ERLLs at the moment, its the 4xERLL Hellbringer, and that wouldnt gain anything from increasing the cap to 3, since it has 4 and would still need to fire in 2 groups (and id be fine with adjusting modifiers so 4 generates the same heat it does now). If you can somehow find a way of using 3 with the extra hardpoint doing something useful then id like to see it..

Also, why look at the comparison with IS ERLLs? No one fires them at base stats because quirks anyway and clan weapons are NOT balanced 1 to 1 with IS ones. The comparison to the C-LPL is the valid one, because thats the choice players have to make and in literally every case once you look into it the 2xC-LPL is a much better option than 3xC-ERLL..

TBH i can only really think of 3 builds that would become viable with ERLL ghost heat set to 3, and 2 of them are on mechs that are not yet released (WHK Gauss in LA and 3xERLL in RA, SCat with 3xERLL and Ebon Kitty with Gauss RT and 3xERLL LT)

As it stands no one uses C-ERLLs at all outside of Kitfoxes with 2 and Hellbringers with 4 (and tbh if you try the HBR with 2xLPL+2xERML its FAR better anyway, 90% of the dmg for 80% of the heat and ~50% of the duration, since im counting the duration of 4xERLL as 2 seconds since you cant reasonably alpha them)

[kapusta11]

Ultimatum X, on 31 March 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

If it were too much, competitive players would never use it - but they do.


What you mean is that it's too much for you.



A lot of players grew accustomed to always taking the IS ERLLAS over the IS LLAS because it was a no brainer, and free extra range for a barely noticable heat bump.


Now at 1.25s burn time, there is at least a distinction. You chose the ER LLAS when you REALLY want that extra range, and not all the time.



The same goes for the CERLLAS. It is a highly specialized weapon, you take it when you are specializing your build for long range.


You don't just take it all the time, as people did, because it's 2 tons lighter than a CLPL with more range.



Now there is a clear choice.

I think ERLL spread damage to much, not because it's hard to keep crosshair on target but because decent opponent won't allow it. Even in video you've linked people lose RT/LT armor before going down in most cases. If you're doing damage to a component that in the end won't kill your enemy once destroyed you can count it as a miss. Then there's a 1.5 sec facetime required to apply damage + additional time spent on going out of cover/getting back behind it. Then there's mech selection choice, size/hitbox wise. IMO even a pair of ERPPCs or Gauss+ERPPC or even CLPLs with slightly worse range but shorter burn time on a Stormcrow would do better because of almost no/less facetime required, better hitboxes and faster acceleration/deceleration speed. Or on bunny hopping Timberwolf.

But what does average Joe know, right? Part of the reason why I said that I wouldn't use them, not my friends or competitive crowd or pugs, just me.

Edited by kapusta11, 31 March 2015 - 08:26 AM.

[CygnusX7]

OP gets stomped in 1 match by an IS LL barn stormer and just has to come to the forum and whine.
Please.. The clan energy barons are still laughing at the controls of their ERML boats.

I will say that 6LPL Banshee is a pant load of fun if you can keep your itchy finger off the trigger.

[Ultimax]

Widowmaker1981, on 31 March 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

You constantly over value range and undervalue heat efficiency and precision

In 95% of situations the 674m range (mod + TC1) of the C-LPL is more than plenty, the extra range on the C-ERLL is pretty much a complete waste, most of the time.

You mean except outside of CW, Tournaments and when organized 10-12 mans feel like playing at Long Range?


Just because you might not be playing in those situations, doesn't mean the range is "a complete waste".


So let's control our hyperbole, and our made up percentages OK?

Widowmaker1981, on 31 March 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Certainly nothing that makes up for the reduced heat efficiency and horrible duration.

It loses 2.3% heat efficiency over the IS equivalent. That's not a bad trade off, all things considered.


The durations on CERLLAS and IS ER LLAS were pushed to where they are, specifically because people used them over in-faction lasers, and because the devs wanted to tone down long-range game in favor of mid-ranged skirmishes and brawls.

Widowmaker1981, on 31 March 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Also, why look at the comparison with IS ERLLs?

Because faction balance is a thing?

Widowmaker1981, on 31 March 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

...once you look into it the 2xC-LPL is a much better option than 3xC-ERLL..

It's the better choice if you have that much tonnage to spare.

It's the better choice if you are not looking to play long range.

If you are, you go with CERLLAS.


What you want is the longest ranged laser to compete directly with a shorter ranged laser (CLPL), that can be slotted into heads and as a load out on a ton for ton basis would also do more damage on alpha...

Yeah, I can see why people would want that.




When the Clans first launched a few units, and one in particular were spamming the living hell out of CERLLAS.

Things like Dire Wolves with 8x CERLLAS were real.


CERLLAS are a good, specialized weapon. They are fine where they are.


You can take two, have excellent long-range ability and then back it up with the equivalent of 3x IS LLAS.

This is one of my Stormcrow builds, it's very versatile.

kapusta11, on 31 March 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

I think ERLL spread damage to much, not because it's hard to keep crosshair on target but because decent opponent won't allow it. Even in video you've linked people lose RT/LT armor before going down in most cases. If you're doing damage to a component that in the end won't kill your enemy once destroyed you can count it as a miss. Then there's a 1.5 sec facetime required to apply damage + additional time spent on going out of cover/getting back behind it. Then there's mech selection choice, size/hitbox wise. IMO even a pair of ERPPCs or Gauss+ERPPC or even CLPLs with slightly worse range but shorter burn time on a Stormcrow would do better because of almost no/less facetime required, better hitboxes and faster acceleration/deceleration speed. Or on bunny hopping Timberwolf.

But what does average Joe know, right? Part of the reason why I said that I wouldn't use them, not my friends or competitive crowd or pugs, just me.

Then at least you understand why they don't work for you.


All of the drawbacks you've posted are real, and yet we see people use these weapons when the situations (CW, Tournaments) call for it - because those are the best, specialized, options for those situations.


That's OK.


These are specialist weapons. It makes sense to see less specialized weapos usage in the public solo queue (where I play mostly) because it's a random mode, random map, random team comp situation.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 31 March 2015 - 08:47 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Ultimatum X, on 31 March 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

You mean except outside of CW, Tournaments and when organized 10-12 mans feel like playing at Long Range?

I play CW, and the VAST majority of actual damage occurs within 600m, with the exception of one map where ill grant the extra range makes a difference. Likewise there is exactly one map in the non CW rotation where you can reliably make use of ranges much past 700m (C-LPL is losing perhaps 0.3 dmg at that range). In all other maps the enemy have to be set up in a very specific location, which you can generally simply refuse to go fight them in. ill admit i have no knowledge of tournament play, but it uses all the same maps doesnt it? i assume people dont just spam Alpine peaks..

Just because you might not be playing in those situations, doesn't mean the range is "a complete waste".


So let's control our hyperbole, and our made up percentages OK?




It loses 2.3% heat efficiency over the IS equivalent. That's not a bad trade off, all things considered.

It loses a lot more to C-LPLs, and a lot more to quirked IS mechs.

The durations on CERLLAS and IS ER LLAS were pushed to where they are, specifically because people used them over in-faction lasers, and because the devs wanted to tone down long-range game in favor of mid-ranged skirmishes and brawls.

Yeah, ok and i didnt say the duration should be messed with..







Because faction balance is a thing?


Yes. Quote that one part and ignore the part where i mentioned that its the LPL comparison that matters and that, due to quirks, and locked build restrictions for clans IS and Clan weapons are NOT balanced 1v1.




It's the better choice if you have that much tonnage to spare.

What? 3x4 = 12. 2x6 = 12. They take the same tonnage.. i contend that, outside of possibly Boreal or Alpine peaks, at no time is it a better choice to take 3xCERLL than 2xC-LPL.

It's the better choice if you are not looking to play long range.

If you are, you go with CERLLAS.


What you want is the longest ranged laser to compete directly with a shorter ranged laser (CLPL), that can be slotted into heads and as a load out on a ton for ton basis would also do more damage on alpha...

I want it to compete pretty unfavourably tbh. 2xLPL vs 3xERLL with no ghost heat is trading 25% situational range and 25% damage for an increase of 50% heat generation and 33% increased duration. Thats an Iffy trade at best, but when you make it 100% heat generation like it is now? too much.

Yeah, I can see why people would want that.




When the Clans first launched a few units, and one in particular were spamming the living hell out of CERLLAS.

Things like Dire Wolves with 8x CERLLAS were real.

Yeah, they were, prior to the duration nerfing (and the buffing of pulse lasers) they were too good.

CERLLAS are a good, specialized weapon. They are fine where they are.


You can take two, have excellent long-range ability and then back it up with the equivalent of 3x IS LLAS.

This is one of my Stormcrow builds, it's very versatile.

Yeah, replied in bold bits because i cant be bothered with the multiquoting.

Edit: also, without using made up percentages and hyperbole, it is factual to state that range is a situational factor (it is useful some of the time, but not all as sometimes the enemy is close to you) whereas total damage, damage per heat and duration are constant factors (they always apply).

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 31 March 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[Sable]

again... The IS large lasers are not an issue by themselves. The ghost heat number going up to 3 PLUS the quirks has made them overbearing. If either had happened on their own it probably wouldn't be the same but shorter burn times, longer range, and more of them firing at once comes across at a little too much.

[terrycloth]

Comparing the stalker 4N with 6LLs to the warhawk with 4*LPLs... it's pretty similar. Alpha is the same. I think the quirks give the stalker a higher DPS for about 30 seconds, but with all the extra heat sinks it can carry, the warhawk has a higher long-term DPS. The stalker is also slower.

Without quirks the stalker just loses, flat out.

[Sundervine]

Two quirks to rule them all:

Slim,Small, Efficient: whatever you want to call it, lowers the mechs drop weight by a certain amount in increments of 5. This would fix every single under performing mech in CW. Also in PUG matches any reduction of 10 or more lowers its type by one class.

Wide,Huge,Inefficient: Does not matter the name, this increases the mechs drop weight in 5 ton increments. 10 or more increases the mechs size class.

Example, Timberwolf, top tier mech, max increase in weight 25 tons, Now enters pug matches as assault. When droping in CW heavily burdens the rest if your drop deck. Any mech that is increased beyond Assault would only be allowed one per match period. AKA if you buffered DW it would become Titanic or whatever you want to call it and only one can be had per Pug drop. If you went with a 20 ton bonus to it in CW terms Huge limiter to your drop deck.

When making a mech in Mechlab, adding endo or XL would each increase weight by 5 tons so both would be a 10 ton increase no matter the mech class. Removing would lower the drop weight by 5 each. This would make even modified mechs fair.

What this simple rule would add is huge, what it would fix is huge. However somehow PGI refuses to even thing about it. It solved every single balance issue in the game. So very simply.

[Johny Rocket]

To answer original post. I like it where it is, always Lrm boated but have been going with Lasers a lot more for 2 reasons, the ghost heat change and ecm.
I like it and if its change I think it should go farther. But this is a biased opinion of course, I have 4 mechs with 2+ erll or LL.

On my stalker 5M I have ditched the 5 ml and 1 ton of lrms for tag and an erll. Way way less heat issue. Why I wish for more, I want my 6 erll STK 3F to be viable instead of a heat nightmare I only play with in testing grounds. +90 torso turn out, adv. z. bigger than stock STD engine. Would be a blast to have basically a 4N with half again the range and 30 degree more turn out each way for dueling/shield twisting up close.

[Kuritaclan]

terrycloth, on 31 March 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

Comparing the stalker 4N with 6LLs to the warhawk with 4*LPLs... it's pretty similar. Alpha is the same. I think the quirks give the stalker a higher DPS for about 30 seconds, but with all the extra heat sinks it can carry, the warhawk has a higher long-term DPS. The stalker is also slower.

Without quirks the stalker just loses, flat out.

You are right Sir, but longterm DPS does not really matter in CW, Group Drops. Or in other words reaching the point that you are fishing around the 100 Heat an stay on the edge so that the long term DPS really is the overwhelming factor is not a point of MWO, as you will roughly made enough Damage in a short period of time (+ the damage of your team) to eather have the target done or it has killed you. And if you and you rgroup have killed it you can savly roll back in to a cover position and decrease your heat, since you won't be pushed, because the enemy has also has to draw their heat. And then you will face each other again, but wiht one less target on the enemy side in best case.

TLDR: long time DPS with a effect of high heat dissipation only apply in long time battles e.g. 1vs1 situations and terrain where you can not hide or long time standoffs with all forces of both sides commited e.g. brawl, where LLs/ErLLs are not very efficient.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 31 March 2015 - 04:26 PM.