61 replies to this topic

[crustydog]

I bring ammo mechs in the drop deck but finish up laser based. When you are bingo ammo, you can either eject or suicide rush for a last few points, but I do dislike discarding an otherwise perfectly good mech this way. In a more realistic scenario you would retire from the field for re-arming, not suicide the mech. Mechs are too valuable.

[Reitrix]

Johnny Z, on 31 March 2015 - 02:59 AM, said:

Was thinking the same thing. Air drop. Mech has to go to resupply bot and stand in proper spot for resupply. The more SIM like the better.

Or resupply ship/hangar. Mech goes in, animation plays. Maybe even makes these destroyable.

Maybe if there was more to the map than [Defender Base -- Wall -- Attacker Base] with exactly one way in or out of the 2 'base' zones we could possible have Supply Lines be a thing.

Imagine a Map that was 40km x 40km.
Bases are proper bases and not random terrain with a gate in the middle.
Destructible walls that force the Defenders to constantly check perimeters and generally break up the Clump vs Clump.
Have 3 ~ 4 Bases that the Attackers have to get inside and destroy in order as the Defenders fall back.

Each Defender Base 'destroyed' becomes a 'Supply Line' that can be raided by Defender Lights.

Until we get something like that, Ammo Mechs are a liability in our 'Community Warfare' mode.

[Joseph Mallan]

Johnny Z, on 31 March 2015 - 02:59 AM, said:

Was thinking the same thing. Air drop. Mech has to go to resupply bot and stand in proper spot for resupply. The more SIM like the better.

Or resupply ship/hangar. Mech goes in, animation plays. Maybe even makes these destroyable.

To arcade for me. Think about it, how long will it take to reload a Mech? Its not a Assault rifle where you pop out a magazine and slap in a new one. How long will you be out of action to reload?

Carrying energy weapons as back up is smart thinking.

[L3mming2]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 March 2015 - 04:07 AM, said:

To arcade for me. Think about it, how long will it take to reload a Mech? Its not a Assault rifle where you pop out a magazine and slap in a new one. How long will you be out of action to reload?

Carrying energy weapons as back up is smart thinking.

how long do you think the reload of a modern mobile arty takes? (some can do it in less than 60 s...)

[Bishop Steiner]

Quxudica, on 30 March 2015 - 09:24 PM, said:

I was considering dropping as IS this week as I greatly enjoy my IS mechs. Mostly my Jaegers and Wolverine, however it seems like Ammo based mech builds are at a huge disadvantage in CW compared to energy builds. Last week I dropped as Jade Falcon using energy builds and didn't often lose my second mech, typically keeping my first medium drop alive for half or more of the fight. Using my AC/5 WVR/JM6 it seems like I'll hit a point rather quickly where I am forced to either stand around doing nothing, or eject and credit the enemy team a kill.

Am I exaggerating the effect here or are ammo builds really as bad as they seem in CW? I realize in the fluff rearming a mech is not something that can be done in the field, but I almost wonder if that really needs to be available.

I run almost all ammo based builds and am usually in the top third on my side.

Crank out 800 dmg, 3-4 kills, suicide scout, rinse, wash and repeat.

Chances are people are holding onto their laservomit well past time to recycle anyhow.

[TercieI]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 March 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

I run almost all ammo based builds and am usually in the top third on my side.

Crank out 800 dmg, 3-4 kills, suicide scout, rinse, wash and repeat.

Chances are people are holding onto their laservomit well past time to recycle anyhow.

^This. In CW, you have four mechs. They are consumable. People are very used to "death is permanent" (which is superior, but that's another issue) and don't seem to grasp that a mech that goes out and wrecks three other mechs has more than paid for itself and can be scrapped.

[0bsidion]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 March 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

I run almost all ammo based builds and am usually in the top third on my side.

Crank out 800 dmg, 3-4 kills, suicide scout, rinse, wash and repeat.

Chances are people are holding onto their laservomit well past time to recycle anyhow.

I prefer balanced builds for normal drops and CW. At least in assaults I can bring enough of each type of weapon to be a threat no matter what state my ammo is in. This weekend I got a Stalker for my pure IS alt with 2 LRM 10s, 1 LRM 5 (900 rnds), 2 SRM 6s (200 rnds), 4 MLs and 1 ERLL. I really enjoyed that build as I could, (more or less), effectively engage starting at about 1.3kms. Is it the best build ever? Probably not. But it was really good at helping me get my 80 points.

The funny thing I noticed, those meta Storm Crow builds and Timberwolf builds don't include AMS. I'm sure they were probably hating me.

[Metus regem]

I never really have an issue with using ammo based mechs in CW, I mean my current Drop Deck looked like this after the weekend:

KGC-000(L)
DRG-1N
DRG-5N
PIRATES' BANE

When I ran out of ammo, I just push the the mech as hard as I can, as far as I can, till she gets dropped then I bring in the next... also helps to get XP on all of them, since you know only the mechs you use in the drop get the XP...

[Chuck Jager]

Virgil Greyson, on 31 March 2015 - 01:09 AM, said:

Why not let mechs with ammo return to the dropship for a resupply? Of course limit it in some way with a cooldown timer or something.

Because the worst offenders of the "all poke no pressure style of play" would be putting even less real pressure on the enemy because they are now making a trip to and from the drop ship instead of just spawning with a new mech. I honestly see no reason to make cowardly ineffective play styles easier. Also if this was an option folks could drop ammo tonnage by 1/2 and boat/add other stuff.

[Soy]

Johnny Z, on 31 March 2015 - 02:59 AM, said:

Was thinking the same thing. Air drop. Mech has to go to resupply bot and stand in proper spot for resupply. The more SIM like the better.

Or resupply ship/hangar. Mech goes in, animation plays. Maybe even makes these destroyable.

Stop that **** you mongo, limited ammo is the price you pay for avoiding heat system in general.

[Ovion]

It really depends on what, and how you play.

The only ammo reliant mechs I've taken to CW so far are my Mad Dog (6xLRM5, 4ERSL 2700-3000+ missiles), my Firebrand (2LBX10, 2ML, 0-4SL, 7-11T of ammo) and Dapperjager (2LPL, 6MG, lots of ammo, 5+Tons of ammo?).

Otherwise, it can all stand on its backup weapons, or the ammo weapons are for opening / closing kicks.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

L3mming2, on 31 March 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

how long do you think the reload of a modern mobile arty takes? (some can do it in less than 60 s...)

Yeah, for towed artillery. They're just dropping a pallet of shells, fuses, and powder. It used to take us about 5 minutes to load 37 shells, fuses, and powder charges off the Ammo Cat into our Paladins.

[DjPush]

All depends on how you use them.

[sycocys]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 March 2015 - 04:07 AM, said:

To arcade for me. Think about it, how long will it take to reload a Mech? Its not a Assault rifle where you pop out a magazine and slap in a new one. How long will you be out of action to reload?

Carrying energy weapons as back up is smart thinking.

Honestly the entire game up to this point is the arcade version of Mechwarrior, adding things that make it more Mechwarrior and less arcade would be a great improvement.

Limit it to a 25% refill that takes 10-15-20 seconds of being locked out of moving or firing, remove ecm coverage, have a c-bill cost in addition to the risk give the game more options and some more depth. People would take this risk, some would succeed and some would die in a glorious rain of fire either fun would be had and people would have another more viable option on the field.

[Fuggles]

i ran a ammo heavy drop deck this weekend and did fine, ammo was only ever an issue with the jager, id prefer more if i could.

4Uac5 crab with 12t ammo (yes thats a lot, it does ******** damage on shut down clan mechs)
dual gauss jager with 6t ammo
griffin 3m 4 asrm 4's with 5t ammo (emptied ammo a few times as i died)
spider 5d for last

Edited by Fuggles, 31 March 2015 - 02:55 PM.

[Quxudica]

I don't think a Rearm mechanism in CW would run counter to game design at all. Maybe the best way to do it is you return to a specified point, a destructible building of some kind I really like (anything to add more objectives to the game, even if they are optional) then you "Eject" while there but instead of self destructing your mech, you are returned to the dropship and must run a different mech while your previous ones ammunition is refilled. Could even allow the pilot to choose between 25 and 50% ammunition reload but have the duration based on which is chosen, I don't think even a 1-3 minute reload time would be unreasonable in CW either. Also you can have the "Combat Resupply" charge cbills based on ammunition type and quantity.

Yes field rearming doesn't work in BT lore, but if you just ignore the time required in "Fluff" and just look at the mechanic itself it could easily be done in a way that actually increases the sim aspect of the game. Arcade rearming would be something like having ammo boxes dropped in and you just walk over them to pick them up, if you use something like I described above - that's much more simulation focused an idea.

sycocys, on 31 March 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

Honestly the entire game up to this point is the arcade version of Mechwarrior, adding things that make it more Mechwarrior and less arcade would be a great improvement.

Limit it to a 25% refill that takes 10-15-20 seconds of being locked out of moving or firing, remove ecm coverage, have a c-bill cost in addition to the risk give the game more options and some more depth. People would take this risk, some would succeed and some would die in a glorious rain of fire either fun would be had and people would have another more viable option on the field.

Pretty much. The game only really pays lip service to being any kind of sim. Damage models are generic, beyond DoT/PP there's no difference between being hit by a missile, a shell or a laser. There are no different types of ammo, no need to use different types of shells to penetrate different thicknesses of armor as all armor is also just a generic point based system. The heat system is essentially binary, either you are overheated and shutdown or you aren't', you can run at 80% heat the entire match and it wouldn't matter for anything.

All mechs can carry all weapons as long as they have the right hardpoint and enough magical vaguely defined "critical" slots, a massive gauss rifle fits perfectly fine in a raven and shrinks to the size of a machine gun. Instead of being equipment we have to build around, consumables are simply magical cards that we pull out of our asses and don't require any particular amount of effort to use. The primary focus of every mech when you build is dealing damage, support roles are bare bones at best and there's very little reason to bring something loaded down with support gear and low firepower - particularly since most "support" gear can be brought by almost any mech just using left over tonnage. Game Mode objectives are extremely simplistic, and the nodes in Conquest are almost randomly distributed with barely any kind of effort made in making them feel like anymore than just a "win box" you stand in.

There may have been a time when MWO was supposed to be a Sim style mechwarrior, but to me it's hard to argue it resembles that in any real way today. Some people used to dump on Hawken for being an arcadey shooter, but honestly MWO is much farther toward that end of the spectrum itself and some people just don't want to admit it.

[Tool Box]

When i run my ac/5 mechs I just give them all the ammo's then when they run out i eject ... Usually manage to score myself a good 1500 damage per mech I have yet to go through all mechs before the match is over though. (I also don't play cw THAT much.)

Builds are as follows for ac/5 mechs

BUILDS NOTICE: Keep in mind that the armor values ESPECIALLY on the back were just thrown together so I would by no means condone trying to run around with those values of back armor!
With the exception of the first Dragon1N build it is much more reasonable.

Dragon1N<much easier to get 1500 usually have a little ammo left over when the arm finally gets blown off.
Wolverine6R<very hard to get 1500 on this guy have to land all my shots and get a good arty/airstrike.

Update: I feel like I've made builds that suit me as a player. Here are some safer more generalized builds that are more forgiving but limit damage output because there is less ammo but are faster so positioning is more forgiving.
Wolverine6R
Dragon1N<--XL Engine
Dragon1N<--Standard engine(I do like this one since it allows you to lose the whole left side versus having to switch to the right side to shield when your left is too weak to shield)

Edited by Tool Box, 31 March 2015 - 04:40 PM.

[LordNothing]

my 3x ac5 banshee 3e does pretty well in cw. but it does carry 8 tons of ammo (which has run out on occasion). the mech also has 3 mpls and an erll, to use when the ammo is gone and to supplement its firepower.

i get 15 damage from the ac5s and 27 damage from the lasers (9 of which is long range). if you supplement the ac5s with the erll, you now can do 24 damage at range. at short range you can bring the full 42 damage to bear. which is nice to have during a rush.

ammo weapons are great for rushes because you can usually sustain fire with them, in laser vomit builds i usually am so heat saturated i cant fire anything. objectives die while i wait for my heat sinks to work. even sometimes doing a voluntary shutdown to get back to shooting. add an ac5 to that build and now you are killing rushers left and right.

in situations where you cant do both ammo and backup weapons, it might be a good idea to bring ammo. but an alternative is to ditch or downgrade a cannon for some lasers and additional ammo.

Edited by LordNothing, 31 March 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[monk]

Virgil Greyson, on 31 March 2015 - 01:09 AM, said:

Why not let mechs with ammo return to the dropship for a resupply? Of course limit it in some way with a cooldown timer or something.

I think a resupply consumable would be an easy and effective solution. Have it be specific to one ammo type (so you can have an AC20 resupply for example, with 3 tons of ammo) for cbills or the improved MC version (might as well go with the flow...even though I think MC versions of consumables are unfair - it should just be another means of purchasing consumables)

To resupply, power down your mech next to the resupply drop. Full resupply takes 20 seconds. If you power up mid-resupply you will have gained a portion of the ammo. You can power down again to finish the resupply. This will require you to find a secure location or take the chance of getting hammered while resupplying. A fair trade off. I'd also restrict the resupply to the person who called it in.

[Ovion]

monk, on 03 April 2015 - 10:03 PM, said:

I think a resupply consumable would be an easy and effective solution. Have it be specific to one ammo type (so you can have an AC20 resupply for example, with 3 tons of ammo) for cbills or the improved MC version (might as well go with the flow...even though I think MC versions of consumables are unfair - it should just be another means of purchasing consumables)

To resupply, power down your mech next to the resupply drop. Full resupply takes 20 seconds. If you power up mid-resupply you will have gained a portion of the ammo. You can power down again to finish the resupply. This will require you to find a secure location or take the chance of getting hammered while resupplying. A fair trade off. I'd also restrict the resupply to the person who called it in.

Actually, you can use GXP upgrades to bring the free up to the same standard as the MC versions.

I think that have an AMMO resupply module would be fine, with appropriate limits.
1: It requires you drop smoke to call in the station (dropped by jet).
2: Once it arrives (in 10-20 seconds say) you stand within X meters, shut down to activate.
3: Will load 1T of ammo for each weapon system you have if more than 1, or 2T for a single weapon, at the rate of 1T a minute, in 30 Second half ton blocks.

i.e. - mech has 1 AC20, stays shut down for 90 seconds, gets 1.5T of ammo back. (120seconds would be the 2T)
i.e. - mech has SRMs, an LBX10 and Machine guns, stays shut down for 3 minutes, and gains 1T SRM ammo, 1T LBX10 ammo, 1T MG ammo. (had it stayed for 90 seconds, it would have .5T SRM, .5T LBX10, .5T MG)

This makes it risk-vs-reward, and fits with the existing 40,000 C-Bill price range.
Make the MC / GXP boosted version arrive 1-2 seconds sooner, and load 10% faster.

This also avoids having a different module for every ammo type.

Edited by Ovion, 04 April 2015 - 03:57 AM.