14 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

Shutdown should increase cooling rate

Shutdown should make you invisible to radar if not already detected.

Unless locked, with reticule over you shutdown should make you blink off detection.


Radar two modes:
Active: You are sending out pings so you can be detected normally
Passive: You are not sending out pings so you detection is harder, mechs on radar do not show up for you.

[ManDaisy]

switching from active to passive when in certain rangees should also make you blink off radar and lock.

[Threat Doc]

ManDaisy, on 27 November 2011 - 09:11 PM, said:

Shutdown should increase cooling rate

Why? Does your air conditioner continue to work when the power is turned off?

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Shutdown should make you invisible to radar if not already detected.

Soft-lock/passive target, maybe, but not completely off-radar.

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Unless locked, with reticule over you shutdown should make you blink off detection.

Not sure if I understand this one. Are you saying if you're shut down, your enemy's reticule, when it is placed on your 'Mech, would show as a misfire reticule? No. Not firing on a downed 'Mech needs to be a personal honor matter, not artificially enforced.

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Radar two modes:
Active: You are sending out pings so you can be detected normally
Passive: You are not sending out pings so you detection is harder, mechs on radar do not show up for you.

For missile locks, yes, but for direct fire weapons, no. My take is that, if you're running active, it's relatively simple to get a missile lock, if you're running passive, it becomes a great deal more difficult, but still possible.

[ManDaisy]

Hmm let me explain it this way...

When your mech is shut down its no different then a rock.

If you show up on radar but you are behind a hill and the enemy computer cannot detect your silhouet, you should not show up on radar as a mech, but a rock if shut down.

However if you can be seen by the computer, direct line of sight, shutting down should not fool the computer.

Say you show up on radar but not line of sight, as soon as you shutdown you become a rock to the computer thus you disappear.

as for passive and missles I agree, missle lock should be harder on passive target, but if you are not in line of sight and go passive, the same logic should apply as described making you disappear off radar, if you are at a range where your passive radar makes you hard to detect and not in line of sight, you shouldn't be detected or noticible from maybe trees or something.

As for shut down increasing cooling, I'd say a shutdown reactor produces less heat then a running reactor, so you dont actually cool faster but generate less passive heat instead thus your cooling rate increases.

Edited by ManDaisy, 27 November 2011 - 09:48 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

How long do you envisage it taking to power back up? This feature is what you need to be able to do for ambushes, with a spotter to tell you when to start up.

[Mattiator]

For shutdown/startup times I'd go for about 5-10 seconds, since I'm assuming that you aren't fully 'shutting down', you're essentially (to use a computer term) going into sleep mode. I think this should decrease radar detection rates even further than going into Passive radar, since you'd have less of a heat signature and active electronics running. Cooling.... it makes sense gameplay wise as a risk/reward thing, but canon-wise I'm not so sure. I think that going into 'shutdown' would also disable such neat little gadgets as your IFF Jammers, ECM, and AMS, so that if someone DOES find you, you best power back on fast and either run or fight.

[feor]

Kay Wolf, on 27 November 2011 - 09:26 PM, said:

Why? Does your air conditioner continue to work when the power is turned off?

No, but your engine stops making heat, so you'd cool down faster because there's less heat entering the system.

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Soft-lock/passive target, maybe, but not completely off-radar.

You'd stop showing up as a mech, unless the attacker's got Beagle you'd look no different than a building.

[Threat Doc]

feor, on 28 November 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

No, but your engine stops making heat, so you'd cool down faster because there's less heat entering the system.

Magneto-Hydrodynamics (MHD) is what the original BattleTech gods called it, and it is, at present, still a theory as to whether it will work or not, but in short a fusion engine. Besides, it would be lack of movement, weapons fire, and incoming heat from flamers and other external sources that would stop the heat from building up, but the heat would actually drop off a LOT more slowly because your Heat Sinks are not being powered, because the electrical harness and converters are not being powered because you're shut down. The fusion reaction is contained within a magnetic bottle that is self-powering, and a system failure -ie being shut down-, would cause a stability override automatically, shutting down the harness in order to maintain the bubble. Therefore, your heat sinks are not getting the power they need to cool you down. Once the system failure is cleared by the computer, or the over-riding pilot, the harness is powered again, the bottle stabilizes, the 'Mech powers up.

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You'd stop showing up as a mech, unless the attacker's got Beagle you'd look no different than a building.

That's why I said passive target.

[Brakkyn]

Consequently, shutdown should be almost immediate, but not instant, and startup should take considerable time.

I don't want a bunch of shutdowns/startups to be seen as a "tactical" option.

[Lucidreality]

Im not following this rock stuff.... If im in a mech, a multi-ton monstrosity of metal and plastics..... how is radar NOT finding me at all? Radar signatures are not based on just active pings. An active ping is just much easier for a radar to pickup. Think of active radar like yelling MARCO in a grocery store, and everyone around can sort of tell where you are from that (obviously a sophisticated computer system could pinpoint your location). Whereas passive radar is like saying marco in a regular voice at the same store, only those real close can hear you and find where you are. And shutdown is like falling asleep in the aisle, lightly breathing.

Guess my point is, even if you are shutdown, there is still electrical buildup and radiation, that a radar could pick up on, just no where near as much as a powered on mech. You should not dissapear entirely from radar, but youd have to be practically on top of the shutdown mech to detect it.

I liked the passive and active radar from mechwarrior 3. Passive radar greatly reduced the range you could pick up an enemy, and they did not see you on radar until they were in your radar range as well. I think it was something like 1km. This allowed you to plan an ambush using sight and terrain.

And idea may be to incorporate a heat detection vision mode for a seconday display in the cockpit. It can be an upgrade for your mech that you have to take, but it will put a smallish screen, like a backup camera, but it will give a heat display of what is in a 90 degree arc in front of you? That way, you can detect mechs that have just shutdown and drop off your radar at a distance, or being able to detect an ambush.

[feor]

Kay Wolf, on 28 November 2011 - 09:45 AM, said:

Magneto-Hydrodynamics (MHD) is what the original BattleTech gods called it, and it is, at present, still a theory as to whether it will work or not, but in short a fusion engine. Besides, it would be lack of movement, weapons fire, and incoming heat from flamers and other external sources that would stop the heat from building up, but the heat would actually drop off a LOT more slowly because your Heat Sinks are not being powered, because the electrical harness and converters are not being powered because you're shut down. The fusion reaction is contained within a magnetic bottle that is self-powering, and a system failure -ie being shut down-, would cause a stability override automatically, shutting down the harness in order to maintain the bubble. Therefore, your heat sinks are not getting the power they need to cool you down. Once the system failure is cleared by the computer, or the over-riding pilot, the harness is powered again, the bottle stabilizes, the 'Mech powers up.

Generally "combat shut down" of a mech (including automated overheat shutdowns) are describes less as a complete shut down of the mech's reactor, and more of a shifting into "low power" mode, where it's still running, but at such minor levels that all it can really run are the mechwarrior's life support systems and the heat sinks.

And beyond that, you think mech's don't have some form of battery? WHen you turn off your car you can leave the lights and radio on if you like, at least for awhile.

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Think of active radar like yelling MARCO in a grocery store, and everyone around can sort of tell where you are from that (obviously a sophisticated computer system could pinpoint your location). Whereas passive radar is like saying marco in a regular voice at the same store, only those real close can hear you and find where you are. And shutdown is like falling asleep in the aisle, lightly breathing.

That's not accurate at all.

Radar operates by sending out a pulse of energy, modern radar in the radio frequency band (where the "Ra" in the name comes from), but any EM wavelength can work, depending on what you're trying to detect, and then tries to detect any of that signal that has bounced off of something and returned to the dish. Basically it works identically to Sonar, but with radiation instead of sound. It ca also detect similar radiation being emitted by other sources.

So a mech on active radar will emit this pulse and wait for returns.
A mech on passive radar will not emit the pulses, but will pick up pulses put out by other mechs, and at very, very close range will probably be able to pick up the EM field of the mech's fusion engine.

A mech that is running on passive radar or shut down will be very hard to detect in a city as it won't be putting out its own radar pulses, unless the pilot is able to see it move it will probably just look like another building. Two Mechs both on Passive radar are more likely to see each other with v1.0 optical sensors (i.e. through the window) than they are to detect each other with their radar.

Edited by feor, 28 November 2011 - 10:28 AM.

[Threat Doc]

Lucidreality, on 28 November 2011 - 10:04 AM, said:

Think of active radar like yelling MARCO in a grocery store, and everyone around can sort of tell where you are from that (obviously a sophisticated computer system could pinpoint your location).

POLO, mahucka!!! Now, eat this (fires LRMs). Lucidreality, that is, perhaps the single best description of active radar I've ever heard. Nicely done.

feor, on 28 November 2011 - 10:27 AM, said:

Generally "combat shut down" of a mech (including automated overheat shutdowns)

No.

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And beyond that, you think mech's don't have some form of battery? WHen you turn off your car you can leave the lights and radio on if you like, at least for awhile.

No.

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That's not accurate at all.

Radar operates by sending out a pulse of energy, modern radar in the radio frequency band (where the "Ra" in the name comes from), but any EM wavelength can work, depending on what you're trying to detect, and then tries to detect any of that signal that has bounced off of something and returned to the dish. Basically it works identically to Sonar, but with radiation instead of sound. It ca also detect similar radiation being emitted by other sources.

So a mech on active radar will emit this pulse and wait for returns.
A mech on passive radar will not emit the pulses, but will pick up pulses put out by other mechs, and at very, very close range will probably be able to pick up the EM field of the mech's fusion engine.

That's what Lucidreality just explained, and he's absolutely right.

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A mech that is running on passive radar or shut down will be very hard to detect in a city as it won't be putting out its own radar pulses, unless the pilot is able to see it move it will probably just look like another building. Two Mechs both on Passive radar are more likely to see each other with v1.0 optical sensors (i.e. through the window) than they are to detect each other with their radar.

You mean Mk. I Eyeballs, right? Now, you are also right, here, as any sort of radar detection, active or passive is going to also be determined by surrounding terrain. Radar does not penetrate mountains, tall hills, big rocks, or buildings at all, whether detecting a radar pulse from an enemy 'Mech running active, or putting out an active pulse and getting a return. So, Lucidreality was right on the money with his explanation of how radar works, and you're right on the money with your explanation that terrain affects radar.

[MaddMaxx]

So in the Urban environment it would be prudent to have "eyes in the sky" as your radar will only echo back the buildings, unless a mech stood in the middle of the street, and if they did that then the Mk.1 Eyeballs would work.

[feor]

Kay Wolf, on 28 November 2011 - 10:43 AM, said:

That's what Lucidreality just explained, and he's absolutely right.

You mean Mk. I Eyeballs, right? Now, you are also right, here, as any sort of radar detection, active or passive is going to also be determined by surrounding terrain. Radar does not penetrate mountains, tall hills, big rocks, or buildings at all, whether detecting a radar pulse from an enemy 'Mech running active, or putting out an active pulse and getting a return. So, Lucidreality was right on the money with his explanation of how radar works, and you're right on the money with your explanation that terrain affects radar.

Radar will go through buildings, depending on what kind of radiation you use for it, but the buildings will degrade the signal, so you get less accurate results the more buildings it has to go through. But if one of those buildings starts to move, that's pretty obviously not a building.
And Lucidreality's description isn't accurate. You're not standing in a grocery store talking on passive radar. You're staying silent and anyone looking for you is trying to track you down based on the sound of your heart beat and breathing. You're not broadcasting anything on passive, hence the name, you're not actively doing anything radar wise, even at low power.

[UncleKulikov]

Kay Wolf, on 27 November 2011 - 09:26 PM, said:

Why? Does your air conditioner continue to work when the power is turned off?

Soft-lock/passive target, maybe, but not completely off-radar.

Not sure if I understand this one. Are you saying if you're shut down, your enemy's reticule, when it is placed on your 'Mech, would show as a misfire reticule? No. Not firing on a downed 'Mech needs to be a personal honor matter, not artificially enforced.

For missile locks, yes, but for direct fire weapons, no. My take is that, if you're running active, it's relatively simple to get a missile lock, if you're running passive, it becomes a great deal more difficult, but still possible.

QFT