256 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

When I was trained it was
Breath
Relax
Aim
STOP
Squeeze

but yeah.

Also I was a Marine What is this manual you refer to.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 22 April 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

If it were HoL or SJR I would have been dead. There's no way I can compete against 6 or 7 players of my caliber on the other side. I would have lasted seconds.

Jump sniping should never, ever come back except as a purely specialized tactic with extreme downsides to it. Jump jets need to be fixed, but so does terrain movement for non-jump jet 'mechs.

So... if we want better jump-jets... we must simultaneously buff the crap out of 'mechs that have no jump-jets by removing their terrain penalties.

That's the only way there will be any fair balance between the two. That would also simultaneously guarantee a non-jj 'mech would have movement advantages on the ground allowing them to close and once they do, completely outmaneuver the jj 'mech up close.

But that wasn't the entire problem with jump-sniping. The other half of the problem was sniping weapons being as effective, or more effective than close range weapons up close.

Yeah that was basically my point, with an equally skilled opponent you don't feel like a god. But the same can be said about anytime you are playing bad players, poptarting aside. So many times in CW I see multiple Adders and Kit Foxes standing still, put a laser alpha into their CT and watch them die.

And yes I am all for buffing all mechs ability to get over small rocks and such.

And yes I would agree with the last statement, but nowadays unless you have cover to hide behind, laser vomit and brawl mechs hurt a lot.

Black Ivan, on 22 April 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

For me option 4. Jump sniping was one of the worst things ever in MWO and it should stay dead and buried where it was left.

So terrible because you couldn't counter it or....?

Sniper09121986, on 22 April 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

What have I said about the current meta, pray tell? I was only talking about poptarting. Also poptarting is not a playstyle. It is a cheatstyle. The severity of the problem as it used to be is well-defined here:

Spoiler

How is it a cheatstyle, that doesn't make any sense. Not going to watch the video, at work, and I doubt it has a lot of substance.

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Poptarting let's you jump, popbriefly into view, alpha to heatcap and fall back in to cover to cool. If at all viable it will trump any other fighting tool because it let's you do damage without fear of accurate counter fire.

It was horrible and a **** mechanic that should never happen again. I'm all for fixing jjs if poptarting is removed as viable but I'd rather jjs get removed completely than poptarting return. I destroys any point of any other design or build and reduces viable mechs to whatever does it best.

This is false, if it is balanced it is balanced. Even when poptarting had barely been touched, laser vomit Timber Wolves and Stormcrows were just as viable. It is easier to feed on solo players because it doesn't require a lot of commitment, and you can kind of do your own thing without risking getting in a bad spot, but in coordinated play it is possible to balance.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 22 April 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

And yes I would agree with the last statement, but nowadays unless you have cover to hide behind, laser vomit and brawl mechs hurt a lot.

It just dawned on me--a wonderful idea!

So what it will take is a few things...

A good writer

A good coder

A good artist

What?

So here's what we do...

The writer comes up with some silly lore about the evil 'mech god, something like a 'mech krakken, or one of those tube worms from Dune.

The coder, well, he codes in a worm/monster/beast/pit of lava/sinkhole/acid or whatever that opens up and devours any 'mech caught sitting in the same relative area for a period of time. Think Canyon Network, for instance, in that center area. Anyone caught sitting on one side or the other of it for a minute or two is instantly annhiliated.

The artist, well, he makes it look cool!

All of a sudden you'll have players everywhere afraid to hide! They'll have to move! Because of they don't move... they die!

MUHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHA.



/insert obligatory Cthulhu reference



Oh and we already know if they don't move they die anyways. This will just make it... more obvious.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 22 April 2015 - 10:16 AM.

[MikeBend]

its ok as is, just fix the flamers. Laser vomit will gradually degrade, when people will constantly be overheating.

[Sundervine]

Anyone who was really good at the PPFLD jump snipe meta is still doing it. Just ask Odwalla and his band of Elite summoner prime pilots. Their tactics never changed.

This Jump sniping PPFLD never left, the changes only left the best of the best doing it.

[Gas Guzzler]

MikeBend, on 22 April 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

its ok as is, just fix the flamers. Laser vomit will gradually degrade, when people will constantly be overheating.

Do we really want a flamer meta?

Sundervine, on 22 April 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Anyone who was really good at the PPFLD jump snipe meta is still doing it. Just ask Odwalla and his band of Elite summoner prime pilots. Their tactics never changed.

This Jump sniping PPFLD never left, the changes only left the best of the best doing it.

If the Summoner is the meta right now then why are there so many threads complaining about its lackluster quirks and overall weak performance?

[Pjwned]

Even if laser vomit meta is a bit boring, it's still 100x better than jump sniping meta.

[Gas Guzzler]

Pjwned, on 22 April 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Even if laser vomit meta is a bit boring, it's still 100x better than jump sniping meta.

But is it better than both being viable? And why?

[John80sk]

Sundervine, on 22 April 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Anyone who was really good at the PPFLD jump snipe meta is still doing it. Just ask Odwalla and his band of Elite summoner prime pilots. Their tactics never changed.

This Jump sniping PPFLD never left, the changes only left the best of the best doing it.

I guarantee you'll never see Od take a Summoner to a closely matched comp game though... good players can bring weaker builds to Puglandia and succeed so long as there is no equally skilled player on the other end running a stronger build.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

But is it better than both being viable? And why?

The butthurt is still too prevalent I think. Looking at it logically there's no reason jump sniping cannot be part of the game IF properly balanced.

[Revis Volek]

XX Sulla XX, on 22 April 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

Would a stock game mode be good enough?

So a returne to the good jump jets for jump brawling etc but with other mechanics to keep the jump sniping away.

NO to the return of POPTARTS across the board, a few mechs...maybe! But yes to a nice re do of JJ's and the thrust issue.

NO MORE BUCKETS! No more modes, no more dividing the players base. I dont think stock mode will have enough steam to carry itself anyway.

But i am not against letting the poptarts come back some what to combat laser vomit and long face times with beam weapons vs quick snap poptart and the like. Maybe it will be ok now that other things are more prevalent. But i am not very reluctant to go back to full fledged pastry flying days.

Edited by DarthRevis, 22 April 2015 - 10:40 AM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

No. Go die.

[Gas Guzzler]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 22 April 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

No. Go die.

John80sk, on 22 April 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

The butthurt is still too prevalent I think.

So it would seem

[Kristov Kerensky]

I never really had a problem with the poptarting in MWO, mainly because the lack of 3rd PoV as it existed in all previous MW titles made it far less of an issue and removed all the exploitation that existed in the previous MW titles.

For example, in MWO, if I want to target someone, I either need to have a direct LoS personally, which means they can see ME, or someone on my team needs to have a direct LoS on them, which means they can be seen as well. Either way, someone is putting their ass on the line to see that target and can be dead for the trouble. There is a RISK/REWARD going on here.

MW2-4, I could pop into 3rd PoV and SEE and TARGET the enemy over/through hills, buildings, whatever, without ever exposing myself to their line of sight and eliminating all chance of them firing on me. I could even fire LRMs at targets locked via this method without ever exposing myself OR anyone else on my team to the enemy. THIS is what made poptarting such a big deal in the previous MW titles and it's why there is such a hatred for it even today. There was NO RISK/REWARD going on, just REWARD/REWARD.

Again, MWO doesn't allow that ability to target via 3rd PoV without exposing oneself to the enemy, so the poptarter actually has to know where you are, meaning they can directly see you OR someone on their team can directly see you, someone's at risk. Unless you are an idiot and never move once they've poptarted once, but in that case, you are an idiot and nothing is going to fix that.

Simple solution which allows poptarting but makes it less effective, leave the screenshake going from the moment you hit the JJ to the moment you land, so that the entire time you are pushing that Mech through the air it shakes like it SHOULD, after all, it's a MECH, few of them are aerodynamic by any means and they are using ROCKETS to propel it through the air. You can still fire your weapons at targets while airborn, but your aiming will not be anywhere near as precise as it could be, so the pinpoint alphas won't be hitting exactly where people want. Will they hurt? Of course they will, but anyone that fires while screenshake is happening now can tell you, even PPFLD weapons don't all hit the same area when fired as an alpha.

This both allows the return of the poptarting as a tactic but at the same time removes the ability to put those big PPFLD alphas on the target exactly where you want them.

[Soy]

Today's newbies do Nascar hits
Run over a disco Dire, who gives a ****
No jokes, they master hitscan gunplay
Squirrels rearrange your flank, fix your feng shui

They be swearin meta's cute
But Soy up in this thread cuz I poptart around the loop
Sayin no to turret play and no consumables either
Just the right to bear arms I'm not talkin wife beaters

PPCs... they used to be soooooo influential
Newbies ****** em up and JJs get no preferential
Next time I read another thread with a similar opinion to mine
I'll try to remember to quote another obscure rhyme

[Xetelian]

Didn't jump snipe but wasn't overly bothered by it. My solo queue elo just didn't have very many jump snipers during the worst of it (Gauss + PPC and PPC AC5s).

Jumpjets just need a little shake, just enough to make jump sniping history.

[Almond Brown]

cdlord, on 22 April 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

Well, there is a lot of opposition in these forums to a stock game mode outside of anything but a private match. I say that's not good enough, the matches should count for something. Don't get me wrong though, Quirks reinforcing stock builds would not force people to play those builds. Since everyone universally agrees that stock mechs are under par, then it only makes sense that their stock builds get the reinforcement.

So some Stock Mechs will gets Buffs to make them better than other Stock Mechs? Doesn't that then make them, by definition, not Stock Mechs anymore, but more "Champ" styled?

Hmmm. Stock Mechs that do not actually come Stock? Hmmm...

[Pjwned]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

But is it better than both being viable? And why?

Both can be viable, but if it's a choice between 1 meta dominating over the other then laser vomit is far better because at least you expose yourself more and don't have ridiculous pinpoint damage.

Personally I don't see too much wrong with the idea of jump sniping, it's just that when it was an overly dominant meta tactic it was very high reward with essentially no risk, both in terms of the builds featuring it and seeing it in action when dealing high damage and receiving almost none, and it completely killed match diversity by making other tactics such as brawling a complete joke. If people want to make pop-tart jump sniping a viable tactic (which it doesn't seem to be now since jumpjet thrust is pretty bad) then that's fine, but if they expect it to be an easy mode tactic like it was before then they can just give it up.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

So it would seem

Hard not to be butthurt over 1 1/2 years of bad game design dominating the metagame, obsoleting ever other playstyle and all but like 3 mechs at the time

[Nightmare1]

I say bring back the old JJs, but keep the current JJ heat nerf. With the way ballistics and PPCs have been nerfed, I really don't think that poptarting will be too much of a problem. With the pugs and groups separated in the main queues, coordinated poptarting won't really be a problem any more, and poptarting will really only be effective in CW's Counter Attack Mode.

[Gas Guzzler]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 22 April 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

Hard not to be butthurt over 1 1/2 years of bad game design dominating the metagame, obsoleting ever other playstyle and all but like 3 mechs at the time

Most of us are arguing for it to be viable along with other tactics, leaving the metagame more diverse than it is now. I don't think anyone wants it to be purely dominant and the only viable play style again.