44 replies to this topic

[AWOL 01]

I downloaded paint.net a few months ago and was messing around with it and decided to try to make a more realistic mech design. Input and suggestions are appreciated!

The turret is from a British Challenger tank, and the legs are from MWO's Locust concept art. It stands around 16 feet tall, is armed with a 120mm gun and two 7.62mm machine guns (co-axial and mounted). It implements carbon nanotube (CNT) muscles, which give it fluid motions, speed comparable to the Challenger (37mph on-road, 25mph off-road), and comparable armor because of the CNT's light weight, almost non-existent need for a power supply, and the fact that it can serve as its own armor against even high-power rounds. Because the CNT muscles need almost no power, it could possibly run off of batteries, meaning it would be much quieter than a tank and have a much more manageable heat signature.



By no means are mechs going to replace tanks, they would simply be another tool for the Army to use. Considering this, what are some other ways in which mechs could be used? My next idea was to make a troop transport. I'm also considering a quadruped design, although this would be slower because it would be nearly impossible to implement a flexible spine into a multi-ton vehicle.

(I also posted this picture in a topic under Fan Creations but it didn't receive much attention and I figured it would fare better here.)

[Lily from animove]

I think legs would actually be a bit more narrow, and they would probably on the sides have a bift of cover to prevent some hits at the location where the legs are attached to the torso.

[Anjian]

It reminds me of a modernized version of the War Thunder event mechs.

Should note that a tank's gun depression is limited to 10 degrees, namely for tanks in the West, while older Soviet tanks are only down to 3 to 5 degrees.

If you got 10 degrees of depression, you can be vulnerable to infantry and tanks attacking you at close range and below.

I wonder what if you try reversing the turret, so the turret is upside down, with the torso above the turret.

Edited by Anjian, 30 April 2015 - 07:16 PM.

[Corbenik]

Metal Gear Rex anyone?

[Ayures]

A "realistic version" of a mech is really a tank... Mechs just aren't practical. Same thing with aerospace/space fighters. In real space combat, they wouldn't really have a use.
Just enjoy them for what they are.

[800]

I would prefer tank over this because of 2 simple reasons:

1) Anyone can snipe that pilot, he isn't protected well enough.

2) Legs seem very vulnerable, if they would be hit by a shell, mine or AT gun, mech would be immobilized. Nobody wouldn't drag 16 tons weighting steel giant back for repairs in middle of an ambush or even casual firefight, it couldn't retreat by itself and the pilot is unlikely to escape afterwards too, this would result not only in the loss of pilot, but also large sums of $ it took to build the mech.

[AWOL 01]

Lily from animove, on 30 April 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

I think legs would actually be a bit more narrow, and they would probably on the sides have a bift of cover to prevent some hits at the location where the legs are attached to the torso.

There is some cover for the outer part of the hip joint from the "hip" portion of the mech, but it can't go too far down or it will limit the angle that the leg can abduct. The same for the center part of the "hip," which is even more important in order to have enough range to keep the mech's center of gravity over the feet when walking.

The legs would be attached similar to modern bipedal robots like Asimo, where the joint comes straight down from the hip:

Anjian, on 30 April 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

It reminds me of a modernized version of the War Thunder event mechs.

Should note that a tank's gun depression is limited to 10 degrees, namely for tanks in the West, while older Soviet tanks are only down to 3 to 5 degrees.

If you got 10 degrees of depression, you can be vulnerable to infantry and tanks attacking you at close range and below.

I wonder what if you try reversing the turret, so the turret is upside down, with the torso above the turret.

With that angle of depression it would still be able to hit anything beyond 25 yards while standing at full height, and that's using a standard tank turret. The mech could still be modified to provide a larger range of motion and crouch down to fire from a shorter height (similar to tank height), and it also has the pintle-mounted machine gun to defend against infantry. Tanks usually engage at longer ranges anyway and are supported by friendly infantry or vehicles.

What do you mean by having the torso above the turret?

800, on 01 May 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

I would prefer tank over this because of 2 simple reasons:

1) Anyone can snipe that pilot, he isn't protected well enough.

2) Legs seem very vulnerable, if they would be hit by a shell, mine or AT gun, mech would be immobilized. Nobody wouldn't drag 16 tons weighting steel giant back for repairs in middle of an ambush or even casual firefight, it couldn't retreat by itself and the pilot is unlikely to escape afterwards too, this would result not only in the loss of pilot, but also large sums of $ it took to build the mech.

In a tank, that "pilot" is actually the commander, and is only exposed when the vehicle is not in a combat situation. Otherwise he is inside the tank giving orders to the crew so that the vehicle is able to move and shoot effectively with other members of the unit. The mech would also have a gunner, who operates the 120mm cannon and co-axial machine gun, and a pilot who would be positioned in the "hip" portion of the mech so that he is facing the same direction as the mech is moving (the same way a tank driver sits in the hull). The commander can also operate the mounted machine gun remotely from inside the tank.

The legs would be a much smaller target than a tank's hull and would be moving, so it could be difficult to hit them, especially if the mech is moving at top speed. Soldiers are taught to shoot center-of-mass because it's the biggest target and is easy to hit. The mech's biggest target is the turret and hip, which are much smaller than the turret and hull of a tank. Also, tanks have treads, which could theoretically be taken out very easily. One track gone and the tank can't move. But we rarely hear of tanks being taken out that way. The legs of the mech may seem vulnerable, but they would be covered with the same type of armor that the tank is, and may be able to carry even thicker armor on the legs than a tank has on its hull because it isn't lugging around the engine, radiator, transmission, etc. The mech has CNT muscles that are very light (allowing for more weight to be allocated to armor), extremely strong and fast (meaning large muscles aren't needed to give the mech the speed it needs to survive), use very little power (batteries can replace the engine, radiator, transmission, etc. freeing up weight), and are so durable that a strand as thick as a pencil can hold up the weight of an elephant (so they serve as their own armor along with the standard armor that a tank has). CNT muscles may also be able to "heal" themselves in the near future, so even if a leg is damaged it would fix itself and you'd still have an operational vehicle. Also, even if one is lost, the CNT muscles would be much cheaper than the tank's engine... etc. so it may actually cost less to build this mech than it would to build a tank.

Again, I'm not saying that this mech will replace tanks, I'm simply saying that another tool in the Army's arsenal wouldn't hurt, and not using CNT muscles would be ludicrous; it's an amazing technology.

I couldn't find a picture of an IFV that I liked so I just used some blueprints. The mech can stand 15-22 feet, depending on its leg configuration, and could carry 4-5 troops along with a crew of 3. It is armed with a 25mm chain gun and a TOW missile launcher.



Thanks for the input so far!

[StrayDog]

How about these?

[Anjian]

Basically what I mean is that right now, its a tank on legs, with the turret up. What if you put the tank upside down, widen the space between the legs, so that the turret, which is now facing downward, forms like a crotch, and the gun between the legs. The top joints of the legs would be over the torso. Of course the look of the mech does have a more "male" sexual look, but it can now cover targets much closer. 10 degrees of depression just won't be enough to cover closer targets at low height and you will encounter closer targets. Putting the hardest part of the mech --- the turret --- beneath also protects the most vulnerable part of the mech which is the underside belly. Turret transverse might be limited unless the turret protudes past the central point between the two legs, which also needs to be reverse jointed, so that can give you at least 120 degrees of turret coverage.

Once you put the turret underneath and between the two legs, missiles launchers can be installed on the upper part. The center of gravity is also lowered, reducing the top heaviness of the mech.

The original picture of the Locust from Crusher Joe shows how the reverse turret looks like.




The exception to this if we want to make a mech that features AA support. Then you are likely to have a design that looks more like an Urbanmech, R2D2 or the Google Android mascot or even Dalek design. You must have complete 360 degree turn and point vertically straight 90 degrees.

[Anjian]

Russia's latest military parade finally shows the Armata tanks in public, but the turret is covered. This is an artist conception of what the Armata tank looks like with the turret.




What makes the tank revolutionary is that the turret is unmanned. There appears to be only a driver and a commander on the tank. This is one step, which the Russians are trying to work on, for a complete automated aka no crew robotic tank.

Edited by Anjian, 01 May 2015 - 11:37 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

The way I've been trying to think about this is, what problem(s) is a real mech going to solve that can't be solved by what's already available?

Some problems can range from a lack of manpower, to simply not having a good tool to handle a particular problem safely, such as urban fighting, or rapid medivac and/or search and rescue in rough terrain / weather.

So, I could see types of power armor and small bipedal mechs along side quad-legged walkers as possible options for urban vehicles and as an intermediary for when tracked or wheeled vehicles and air support are not possible or safe options to deploy.

I have a few ideas as to what I'd expect to see, but the main challenge is a good and reliable power supply!

[MW Waldorf Statler]

small Mechs best Tools, for missions looks like "Black Hawk Down" ...Tanks to many Blind Firezones, Helicopters to easy Target,Small Vehicles like Humvees to unarmed.

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 02 May 2015 - 02:19 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Well, asimo is not designd for battle, it is designed as humaoid robot. So it does of course not care how his legs are shaped.

[Calebos]

To be honest no mech from Battletech setting is able to move ever. So many nonsenses there ... The base condition for limbs is not fullfiled and no mech is able to simply rotate with just legs and walk in circle. Even that it would be very easy to repair this stupid ideas with battletech legs. Just to make two spherical joints. One for upper part and one for toe part. But still if creators of this universe want to simulate mamal or bird legs it would be good to check some anatomy knowledge. For examle: on all mechs with ankle joint in higher position there is missing thigh part to be able to walk or run(Raven, etc. ...)

[Nik Reaper]

Yap, humanoid robots of BT mech size could only see use in construction and disaster relief as helpfull giants with articulated hands and other extra, useful, large size equipment.

For war we are going in to smaller and smaller automated platforms, think automatic golf cart with missile launcher and so on.

Our firepower is so overpowering the armor protection that if we don't need to care for the human pilots, as automatisation and remote control are the next big thing, we might as well only protect weapon platforms from small arms fire and the elements and concentrate on counter measures, mobility and small profile.

So unless we get armor that can stop 2-3 missiles hitting the same place, and somekind of scaleing power that demanded a large size but instead gave exponentialy more power per unit of size, and if we even needed such power, only then such large constructs as mechs might be considered and even then it is so much more likely that they do not have legs but instead are more of an centaur, with a torso mounted on a track lower part, lowering the centre of gravity and stabilizing the construct if robotic arms seemed needed.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 03 May 2015 - 07:15 AM.

[Anjian]

We will see robotic soldiers before we will see mechs. Actually once we see robotic soldiers, I expect them to gradually increase in size in order to hold larger armament and keep more stores, and before you know it, it would be mech size.

I would also stipulate that robots in the battlefield are going to be unmanned. The trend is towards reducing human casualties by machines.

Tanks will also be increasingly robotic, just as the Armata tanks are going to demonstrate. The next generations or variants may reduce crew members to one, and ultimately, zero.

I standby my proposed designs, with a central torso aimed for maximum slope and shot deflection. This means minimal frontal profile and surface area, an ogive or ovoid shape for the torso would be optimum. It would also lower water resistance if that thing needs to ford through water. I tend to think my mech would look like a hybrid between Catapult, Mad Cat, Marauder, Crab, King Crab and Raven. But with short arms right on the side, and legs that are reverse jointed (bird like). Or perhaps look at the Berserker in Hawken. I will probably avoid the weight of a heavy cannon, let the tanks and arty do that job, and use TOWs and HEAT weapons for antitank. Four 30 to 37mm cannons with ports around the nose area to handle infantry and lightly armored vehicles, as well as helicopters. I would also remove the pilot so its completely robotic, or man controlled walking drone.

Edited by Anjian, 03 May 2015 - 06:19 PM.

[Hex Pallett]

I've answered this in an old post before and I'll answer it here again: to create a "realistic" mech, all you have to do is one thing: think with physics. You'll need either a relatively low center of mass (think of ostrich), or a very wide distribution of mass (think of carnivore dinosaurs with their long tails), or a very complicated system to make sure you can find the balance on two legs (that is us, **** sapiens). Ideally two of the three.

As for your tank on legs, well, it is possible - can you walk on the tip of your toes with your hands folded behind your back? Yes? Then it is possible, at least theoretically. But anyway, regarding "realistic" mechs, unfortunately we're still looking at technology that is not here yet. On the horizon, but won't be reality any time soon.

EDIT: welp, unfortunate Latin name is unfortunate....

Edited by Helmstif, 04 May 2015 - 04:23 AM.

[Cool will never die but you will]

I personally like the rolling pin on the front.

[SethAbercromby]

I think real life Mechs would be very much fill the same niche as their BT Lore counterparts. Namels urban conflict. Mechs are smaller and more manouverable than a tank, which allows for much better flexibility in narrow pathways with limited space to either side. The smaller profile coupled with high speed makes them harder to hit and with sophisticated anti infantry and anti missile systems would be pretty hard to take down in an urban environment, where infantry is the worst enemy to armored vehicles.

Replace the medium laser with another set of machine guns and the Locust would be a pretty realistic first design for a mech designed for urban conflict (since flamethrowers are considered unessecarily cruel by most nations). Fast, manouverable and the large caliber machine guns would be cabable of dealing with both small armored vehicles and infantry troops (the arm-mounted ones would probably be something like 12.7mm anti vehicle HMGs, while the reverse turret would hold a pair of 7.62mm anti infantry MMGs for improved control in conjuntion with the turret mount). Equip it with a similarly sophisticated system as modern tanks to deal with RPGs and the biggest threat would come in the form of vehicle mines which would probably rip the feet right off. Not too sure how to deal with those.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 04 May 2015 - 02:06 AM.

[Calebos]

Helmstif, on 03 May 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

I've answered this in an old post before and I'll answer it here again: to create a "realistic" mech, all you have to do is one thing: think with physics. You'll need either a relatively low center of mass (think of ostrich), or a very wide distribution of mass (think of carnivore dinosaurs with their long tails), or a very complicated system to make sure you can find the balance on two legs (that is us, **** sapiens). Ideally two of the three.

As for your tank on legs, well, it is possible - can you walk on the tip of your toes with your hands folded behind your back? Yes? Then it is possible, at least theoretically. But anyway, regarding "realistic" mechs, unfortunately we're still looking at technology that is not here yet. On the horizon, but won't be reality any time soon.

EDIT: welp, unfortunate Latin name is unfortunate....

Center of mass is not so heavy problem here(as you mentioned humanic physiognomy, we as humans have center of mass roughly in the center of pelvic area and of course it is changing with posing of body parts). It is not neccessary to move it down. The real problem is matter and gravity. The materials we know are not able to withstand so heavy tensions during even slow movement. I rather do not dare to speak about extreme velocities, or twisting some body parts. A top of it we do not know any kind of enough capable, strong and quick engines.
Shortly said: with our knowledge of materials and its use it is waste of time to plan something as the mech ...