195 replies to this topic

[Faith McCarron]

I came to Battletech in the early 2000's, discovered it at college amongst various games played by the gaming club, and for whatever reason, I just took to the IP. Keep in minfd by this time, the Clans were firmly established and all of that. After shooting lots of stompy robots in video games and tabletop, I started diving into the fiction and the roleplaying side, which to me, is the strength of the Battletech universe. But occasionally over the years I have come back to the question, where are the kick-ass hertoines in Battletech? I get that it's roots are in a robot shooter for teen boys in the 80's, but still, a lot has happened in the world and the Battletech universe since then. So I just wanted to throw the topic out there for discussion. Am I on target here, or am I just being a feminist boogeyman? Let me start by looking at some of the major female characters that we have had, and I'm going to take this in a roughly chronological order.

Lori Calmar Carlyle: Ugh. When I first started reading the novels, the Gray Death trilogy was recommended to me, and I started there. I absolutely hated Lori. First of all, not only was she bested by Grayson Carlyle, but she wasn't even beaten in combat, she got threatened with an inferno round, and went all girly, succumbing to her emotions and fears.

Katrina Steiner (The first one): She is sometimes pointed to as a great warrior Archon, but we don't really get to see this. What we see of her is in her later life when she is politician, and what do we have her doing? That's right, she gives her daughter away to Hanse Davion like some kind of prize to secure an alliance. Yes, Stackpole tries to soften it by making sure that Melissa agrees, but it is still an arranged marriage.

Melissa Steiner: The Warrior Trilogy follows her pretty thoroughly, and she is a pretty weak character. We see her go through the whole 'learn to be a leader' trial, but most of the time, she serves only as a weak-kneed teenager who swoons over how noble and honorable Hanse Davion is.


Candace and Romano Liao: These two were the archetypal fighting sisters. We see them portrayed as insanely jealous, backstabbing, and petty. And while they are both royalty, we see them getting their power from the men they attach themselves to. Romano fawns all over her father, and Candace's influence and power are shown as unfocused until the brilliant Justin Xiang comes into play.


Natasha Kerensky: This is the big one I always hear. "But what about Natasha Kerensky? She's the Black Widow, and black widows eat men!". In reality, Natasha is probably one of the worst offenders. She wasn't even thrown into the mix as a political leader or military figure so much as she was just thrown in as a sex symbol. Let's have a red-head run around in leather pants, what could be more stereotypical than that? It's often mentioned that she underwent cosmetic surgery, because, well, we can't have the black widow not looking hot, right? And if there is any doubt, I'll just say:



I mean, how do those things even stay on??? Anyone?


Katherine Steiner-Davion: She is probably (sadly) the closest thing we get to a powerful female figure, and she is evil to the bone. Not only that, but she is always portrayed as image conscious and vain, and her true power lies in manipulation and subterfuge. She kills her own mother, and she is the opposite of goody-two-shoes Victor.

Omi Kurita: Double ugh. First we start off with a shy, quiet, demure Asian woman. Then we have her become infatuated with the white knight Victor. Of course, the whole time she is subservient to her father, as the combine is an incredibly misogynistic society. And to Victor, she is just like some unattainable prize, a precious little flower to be plucked.


This is all just a starting point, a few of my own thoughts on the subject. I'm curious as to what the general consensus is on this issue. Discuss amongst yourselves.

[Kenyon Burguess]

you don't have to be good to be a awesome rolemodel in a IP devoted to mercenaries and warlords. http://www.sarna.net...aula_Trevaline.

also the best books to read for strong characters are the TRO pilot sections for the mechs and vehicles, and the many era reports. lots of strong females in those, doing amazing things in their stompy machines. sadly, reading the novels is the worst of the options for strong characters imo

[Faith McCarron]

Oh, I'm a sourcebook junkie. And I'm not saying that Btech is in any way the worst offender. Just interested in having a discussion.

[Darwins Dog]

I tend to agree with you OP. From the surface it seems like it will be really good in terms of gender balance. Women run vast interplanetary nations, and are common front-line combatants and mechwarriors. It's not even an exception to the rule. No one ever says "Sure she's a woman, but she's so good that we had to let her in." It's completely commonplace for ladies to fight in the military.

Sadly, the novels don't reflect that. They are not well written to begin with, so it's not surprising to see the authors fall back on old tropes/stereotypes. The warrior trilogy was Stackpole's first published work iirc. Combine that with the belief that only teenage boys play games, and there you go.

Maybe if this IP gets a big reboot sometime we will see some improvement.

[Faith McCarron]

Yeah, I agree. On the surface, it seems like giant leaps forward, but then when you get down to the big characters.....epic fail.

I stay current with the timelines and all, and they have plenty of opportunity in the future with the Fortress Republic and all that.

[warner2]

Joanna was pretty bad ass, as I remember.

[Faith McCarron]

warner2, on 14 May 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

Joanna was pretty bad ass, as I remember.

Yeah, that's true. Thinking about it, she's probably the number one example in all of the canon.

[Skarlock]

Faith McCarron, on 14 May 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

But occasionally over the years I have come back to the question, where are the kick-ass hertoines in Battletech? I get that it's roots are in a robot shooter for teen boys in the 80's, but still, a lot has happened in the world and the Battletech universe since then. So I just wanted to throw the topic out there for discussion. Am I on target here, or am I just being a feminist boogeyman?

If you don't like any of those characters that's fine, but what bothers me is that you pick on the flaws and exactly what you don't like about those characters. When characters don't have flaws, they become mary-sues and marty-stus, and are dreadfully boring to read about. When a character is perfect they solve every issue, have no peers, no rivals, and have no challenges or struggles because perfect beings don't struggle, they just win, and win some more. Flaws are what make characters interesting.

If you find the characters a bit too flat and stereotypical, then it's probably not the character, but the writing that is lacking. Depth of character comes from the situations those characters are thrown in and how they overcome those struggles. Perhaps you should try writing your own fiction and share it if you really feel the BT universe has it all wrong.

[Faith McCarron]

So much failsauce. Where do I start?

Skarlock, on 14 May 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

If you don't like any of those characters that's fine, but what bothers me is that you pick on the flaws and exactly what you don't like about those characters. When characters don't have flaws, they become mary-sues and marty-stus, and are dreadfully boring to read about. When a character is perfect they solve every issue, have no peers, no rivals, and have no challenges or struggles because perfect beings don't struggle, they just win, and win some more. Flaws are what make characters interesting.

I'm not saying characters should be without flaws. What I'm pointing out is that when it comes to Battletech, generally, the loveable heroes with their cahracter flaws are men, while the female characters are decidedly more bland and stereotypical.

Skarlock, on 14 May 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

If you find the characters a bit too flat and stereotypical, then it's probably not the character, but the writing that is lacking. Depth of character comes from the situations those characters are thrown in and how they overcome those struggles. Perhaps you should try writing your own fiction and share it if you really feel the BT universe has it all wrong.

http://mwomercs.com/...f-the-universe/

http://mwomercs.com/...faith-mccarron/

http://faithmccarron.blogspot.com/

I'll facepalm for you.

[Skarlock]

Faith McCarron, on 14 May 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

I'll facepalm for you.

Why? And thank you for sharing your fiction, I'm sure I'll enjoy reading it.

[andrewkhlim]

I mostly agree with you. As a new battletech fan reading some of the older battletech books; the characters seem a bit of a victim of it's time. I have yet to read the new ones but I'm guess that BT in general has been targeted at a small minority of fellas. Unless the dollars start to sway, I doubt variety in character depth will change for the fairer gender.

[Faith McCarron]

andrewkhlim, on 14 May 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

I have yet to read the new ones but I'm guess that BT in general has been targeted at a small minority of fellas. Unless the dollars start to sway, I doubt variety in character depth will change for the fairer gender.

That indicates a different problem entirely then. Obviously a game is going to be marketed for a target audience, but it's a sad state if they feel like that means a lack of strong female characters. I'm not going to turn away from a compelling product simply because it has a male hero, why should the opposite be true?

[andrewkhlim]

Faith McCarron, on 14 May 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

That indicates a different problem entirely then. Obviously a game is going to be marketed for a target audience, but it's a sad state if they feel like that means a lack of strong female characters. I'm not going to turn away from a compelling product simply because it has a male hero, why should the opposite be true?

Fair point but the books have been written from late 80s, not likely to be re-writen or altered like a George Lucus film. Heroines like Ripley from Aliens was a breakthrough, not common as far as I know.

Having worked with a publisher in a different industry they generally go with what they think is a safe decision financially. Simple characters an cheaper writers for a niche market with little return is an obvious strategy.

I have noticed a fair few gamers interested in MechWarrior are also have some involvement with the military. How that might influence an authors mind in regards to cratering for that audience would be of some note.

I know when I read about Lori and Natasha I was hoping they would have a stronger story.

My question to you would be how have the last 3 books represent the female warriors?

And are the books not just void of strong female characters but of strong characters in general? Or stronger writers?

[Triordinant]

Faith McCarron, on 14 May 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

I mean, how do those things even stay on??? Anyone?

Triple Strength Myomer? The hotter you are, the stronger they get.

Edited by Triordinant, 14 May 2015 - 08:13 PM.

[Benjamin Davion]

Joanna is definitely one of the stronger examples. I'll agree that Battletech tends to reflect modern society. You do have some strong female characters but society remains dominated by men. A big part of that I feel comes from the fact that virtually the whole social and political structure is based around war, a traditionally male enterprise. The Inner Sphere is highly feudal and I feel like the reestablishment of that system would bring back some other older traditions as well, like political marriages and women as chattel.

Interestingly enough, for their blatant racist tendencies, the Clans seem to not establish any significant barriers between men and women. Lore wise, Khans seem to be pretty even between men and women and I can't recall really reading anywhere there being gender issues between the two.

As for specific characters, I know everyone likes to crap on Dark Age, but I'd point out a couple from that era.

First is Tara Campbell. She has some flaws, namely her becoming all love-besotted over a Loki agent not half a year after getting burned by Ezekiel Crow, but she's a strong leader politically and militarily. I personally think the Republic was a terrible idea, but she's quite firm in her support of it. At the same time, she's pragmatic enough to realize when ideals have to be bent, as evidenced by allying with the Wolves and Stormhammers to hold Skye.

Skye brings us to another, Malvina Hazen. Downright psychopathic, yes, but one of the more complex and fascinating characters in the Dark Age timeline. Her brother Alexander was the main reason I considered myself Jade Falcon for a short time when those books first came out before returning to my Davion roots. (I was a kid, what can I say?) She carries major emotional and psychological baggage born from her sibko experience, but rather than crumbling under that, she channels it into conquering the Inner Sphere. While that's a bad thing for anyone she comes into contact with, it doesn't much fit the narrative of the emotionally damaged woman who can't function. Malvina functions just fine, even if her function is to kill everyone.

Almost forgot about Anastasia Kerensky, who's one of the more interesting and well balanced female characters in Dark Age.

It's somewhat ironic, actually. The Dark Age books marked a significant downturn in the quality of combat in the books due to the rather contrived 'we scrapped most of the mechs' crap, but the quality of the writing was actually much improved, which I think led to the stronger characters.

[andrewkhlim]

Benjamin Davion, on 14 May 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

It's somewhat ironic, actually. The Dark Age books marked a significant downturn in the quality of combat in the books due to the rather contrived 'we scrapped most of the mechs' crap, but the quality of the writing was actually much improved, which I think led to the stronger characters.

Maybe I'll skip to the dark age then. I tried getting through the battletech books chronologically but it's a bit of a slog.

[Strum Wealh]

Benjamin Davion, on 14 May 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

Joanna is definitely one of the stronger examples. I'll agree that Battletech tends to reflect modern society. You do have some strong female characters but society remains dominated by men. A big part of that I feel comes from the fact that virtually the whole social and political structure is based around war, a traditionally male enterprise. The Inner Sphere is highly feudal and I feel like the reestablishment of that system would bring back some other older traditions as well, like political marriages and women as chattel.

Interestingly enough, for their blatant racist tendencies, the Clans seem to not establish any significant barriers between men and women. Lore wise, Khans seem to be pretty even between men and women and I can't recall really reading anywhere there being gender issues between the two.

As for specific characters, I know everyone likes to crap on Dark Age, but I'd point out a couple from that era.

First is Tara Campbell. She has some flaws, namely her becoming all love-besotted over a Loki agent not half a year after getting burned by Ezekiel Crow, but she's a strong leader politically and militarily. I personally think the Republic was a terrible idea, but she's quite firm in her support of it. At the same time, she's pragmatic enough to realize when ideals have to be bent, as evidenced by allying with the Wolves and Stormhammers to hold Skye.

Skye brings us to another, Malvina Hazen. Downright psychopathic, yes, but one of the more complex and fascinating characters in the Dark Age timeline. Her brother Alexander was the main reason I considered myself Jade Falcon for a short time when those books first came out before returning to my Davion roots. (I was a kid, what can I say?) She carries major emotional and psychological baggage born from her sibko experience, but rather than crumbling under that, she channels it into conquering the Inner Sphere. While that's a bad thing for anyone she comes into contact with, it doesn't much fit the narrative of the emotionally damaged woman who can't function. Malvina functions just fine, even if her function is to kill everyone.

Almost forgot about Anastasia Kerensky, who's one of the more interesting and well balanced female characters in Dark Age.

It's somewhat ironic, actually. The Dark Age books marked a significant downturn in the quality of combat in the books due to the rather contrived 'we scrapped most of the mechs' crap, but the quality of the writing was actually much improved, which I think led to the stronger characters.

I agree with your assessment; I had planned on writing something similar, but now there is no need.

Though, would you have added Marthe Pryde to that list?

[Nightmare1]

Who cares? It's a science fiction series where the main focus is on stompy robots blowing each other to pieces. Gender Equality is merely a side issue and a distraction from what's important; MechonMech violence!

[Faith McCarron]

Triordinant, on 14 May 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

Triple Strength Myomer? The hotter you are, the stronger they get.

kudos for that one, I'll admit that was cute.

andrewkhlim, on 14 May 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

Fair point but the books have been written from late 80s, not likely to be re-writen or altered like a George Lucus film. Heroines like Ripley from Aliens was a breakthrough, not common as far as I know.

Having worked with a publisher in a different industry they generally go with what they think is a safe decision financially. Simple characters an cheaper writers for a niche market with little return is an obvious strategy.

I have noticed a fair few gamers interested in MechWarrior are also have some involvement with the military. How that might influence an authors mind in regards to cratering for that audience would be of some note.

I know when I read about Lori and Natasha I was hoping they would have a stronger story.

My question to you would be how have the last 3 books represent the female warriors?

And are the books not just void of strong female characters but of strong characters in general? Or stronger writers?

Yeah, the era the books were written in obviously has something to do with it, just like with some of the goofy racial stereotypes used in Battletech.

I had never really considered the aspect of military-types being on e of the target audiences, but I suppose it makes sense.

Benjamin Davion, on 14 May 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

Joanna is definitely one of the stronger examples. I'll agree that Battletech tends to reflect modern society. You do have some strong female characters but society remains dominated by men. A big part of that I feel comes from the fact that virtually the whole social and political structure is based around war, a traditionally male enterprise. The Inner Sphere is highly feudal and I feel like the reestablishment of that system would bring back some other older traditions as well, like political marriages and women as chattel.

Interestingly enough, for their blatant racist tendencies, the Clans seem to not establish any significant barriers between men and women. Lore wise, Khans seem to be pretty even between men and women and I can't recall really reading anywhere there being gender issues between the two.

As for specific characters, I know everyone likes to crap on Dark Age, but I'd point out a couple from that era.

First is Tara Campbell. She has some flaws, namely her becoming all love-besotted over a Loki agent not half a year after getting burned by Ezekiel Crow, but she's a strong leader politically and militarily. I personally think the Republic was a terrible idea, but she's quite firm in her support of it. At the same time, she's pragmatic enough to realize when ideals have to be bent, as evidenced by allying with the Wolves and Stormhammers to hold Skye.

Skye brings us to another, Malvina Hazen. Downright psychopathic, yes, but one of the more complex and fascinating characters in the Dark Age timeline. Her brother Alexander was the main reason I considered myself Jade Falcon for a short time when those books first came out before returning to my Davion roots. (I was a kid, what can I say?) She carries major emotional and psychological baggage born from her sibko experience, but rather than crumbling under that, she channels it into conquering the Inner Sphere. While that's a bad thing for anyone she comes into contact with, it doesn't much fit the narrative of the emotionally damaged woman who can't function. Malvina functions just fine, even if her function is to kill everyone.

Almost forgot about Anastasia Kerensky, who's one of the more interesting and well balanced female characters in Dark Age.

It's somewhat ironic, actually. The Dark Age books marked a significant downturn in the quality of combat in the books due to the rather contrived 'we scrapped most of the mechs' crap, but the quality of the writing was actually much improved, which I think led to the stronger characters.

I have to admit to having not read all of the Dark Age novels. I tried reading some of them in the beginning, but they were so laughably bad with planets being taken over by a one-armed Dervish, 3 hovercraft, 4 BattleArmor suits and a bicycle, that I had a hard time getting into them. If you notice, the Dark Age stuff with all the tiny little groups like the Swordsworn and all that is really glossed over a lot in the newer Republic/Dark Age stuff from Catalyst. When Dark Age was clicky plastic lumberjack mechs with chainsaws, it was almost as if the great houses didn't exist, and thankfully they have brought them back to the forefront, but it makes those novels painful to read.

Nightmare1, on 15 May 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

Who cares? It's a science fiction series where the main focus is on stompy robots blowing each other to pieces. Gender Equality is merely a side issue and a distraction from what's important; MechonMech violence!

Oddly enough, as a woman, I care. It's much more than stompy robots blowing each other to pieces. What sets it apart from a chinsy video game shooter universe is it's depth of history, characters, politics, and so forth. For me, the fact that it's a giant space drama is far more appealing than just 'stompy robots pew pew', and given that I find that aspect to be intriguing, I'd also like if it were more diverse and representative.

[Faith McCarron]

Marack Drock, on 15 May 2015 - 04:05 AM, said:

I think the OP never looked into the Pryde family very much. All badasses female included. Then we have Joanna, and you know Black Widow may have had a few bras on but still she was the best MechWarrior of her day and age bested only when she was in her hundreds. Something to consider no?

Anastasia Kerensky is excellent

Natalie Breen who led the Steel Vipers Clan in Operation Revival is was badass and Khan of her clan.

What about Edwina Carns a Galaxy Commander of Clan Wolf?

Elise Fetladral? First saKhan and one of the people to lead her Clan to victory in Operation Klondike.

Sondra Black even after marrying Edward Davion and then losing him in a Capellan raid still fought with the FPF until she to perished.

OP you are right there are some characters who start strong and end weak but you are picking and choosing. There are countless counter examples (I know even more off the top of my head) but I don't find any point. BT has some weak females but if you dig down for every 1 weak one there are 3 awesome badasses. I have read and studied this lore extensively since joining this Community and man you are missing so many amazing characters... or you are nitpicking. Also not to be sexist or anything but many women do crack under pressure. Many don't but just like men there are those who do. Don't be harsh on BT for a few weak moments. Because the men have them in this series too you are just ignoring those to make a point of BT being sexist even though it's not true.

I appreciate your point, Marack, but I think you're missing the mark. Sure, there are hundreds of female characters, but just saying "oh there was a female Khan here" doesn't equate to actual meaningful representation. I can throw lore around with the best of them, but it doeesn't mean there are characters in the fore that we care about. Natalie Breen? Or some Khan from Operation Klondike? They're not even on the same plane of reality as Kai or Victor or Hanse or Theodore or Jaime Wolf or Grayson Carlyle or Aidan Pryde. To put it another way, I could point out that Adrienne Simms was a female Primus of ComStar and founder of the Explorer Corps. Those are huge accomplishments on paper, but are you honestly going to tell me that you have ever been emotionally vested in Adrienne Simms in the slightest as a character in all your time in Battletech???

As far as "many women crack under pressure", what is the point of a statement like that? Many PEOPLE crack under pressure. My point is only that it would be nice to have a few more of the compelling characters who may get knocked down in times of pressure but get up and rise to the occasion actually be females. Battletech has had like 30 years of compelling heroes who wrestle with their flaws and live out their lives on the pages in front of us, and they're almost univerally guys. Guess what, I've ENJOYED reading those. All I'm saying is that it might be nice to have a few more that I can relate to or connect with in a different way.