42 replies to this topic

[MechWarrior849305]

Instead of nerfing clans PGI should look into ECM

[Torchfire Katayama]

Mercules, on 21 May 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

The only people who screwed over the TW & Crow are those who played them endlessly as a Meta loadout.

Yet IS meta mechs that performed better prior to SCR/TBR nerf still have positive quirks for their meta loads. Interesting. As it is now, the margin between SCR/TBR and the IS mechs just got wider, and not in favor of the Clans.

Spleenslitta, on 23 May 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

I support the nerfs of the Firestarters despite the fact that it's my favorite IS light mech.

The 8 SPL FS9 was viable before it ever got buffed. A couple friends and I used to run them prior to the quirkening.

Edited by Torchfire, 03 June 2015 - 01:39 PM.

[Mercules]

Torchfire, on 03 June 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Yet IS meta mechs that performed better prior to SCR/TBR nerf still have positive quirks for their meta loads. Interesting. As it is now, the margin between SCR/TBR and the IS mechs just got wider, and not in favor of the Clans.

Yeah, when you subtract a little number from a larger number you end up with a positive number. Some of the IS meta ended up with small reductions. They are positive because with no quirks the Timberwolf/Stormcrow was better than IS equivalents with a few quirks. Now that the clan side got a few negatives they can reduce some of the positives on the IS side, but they will still need some positives to balance them against Clans and a few other IS mechs.

[ShadowFire]

I wonder just how many IS pilot screaming for clan nerfs even realize that the Timberwolf and Stormcrow were nerfed right out of the box with one mech module slot and one weapon slot? Just how many IS pilots would just say... I don't need those slots.

Or what would the IS pilots think if they had to dump half their ammo to equip almost useless Jump Jets or in another example, what use are all those heat sinks when they wish to build a gun/missle mech and need those tons for ammo? Most IS only pilots think one can build any type of mech using the Clan omni system but in fact Clan mech building is very restricted by locked in slots and engine sizes.

BTW, The only reason most clanners piloted those two mechs was because the other clan mechs were/are so mediocre. The Hellbringer really is not much of a mech and only brings to the field a ECM mech in the heavy class.

[Nightshade24]

Mercules, on 21 May 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

The only people who screwed over the TW & Crow are those who played them endlessly as a Meta loadout.

My timberwolf got screwed over and it only had 2 ER PPC's for Energy weapons. The sad part is that ignores half the nerfs due to the fact PPC has no duration and I still needed to make a build to replace that PPC with something like an LBX 10 or UAC 10 (I switch them around time to time).

[Nightshade24]

I would say no nerfs please.

I would like quirks to support the Ballistics of the Hellbringer and the infamous ER PPC's as well as the missiles as the missiles are kinda in an awkward place for this chassis.

To help avoid over buffing/ nerfing to occur I want 20 to 50% of the quirk to come from the "Omnipod set bonus" alone.

This way you can easily buff the Hellbringer A and B without it suddenly getting the primes ECM torso pushing it to OP or other combinations.

Ie Gauss rifle, UAC 5, LBX 5, ER PPC quirks, ER medium laser quirks, etc can all be easily implemented for the clans favour without pushing them OP if you allow the omnipod set bonus to have a bulk of the quirk AND also have some of the quirk to the CT.

(Note: I want this CT and Omnipod set bonus quirkening to occur for all clan mechs, this will not only make each alt.config unique but also allow buffs without OP set ups, for eg giving the Timberwolf D strong er ppc quirks without making the timberwolf OP once adding the A torso to move those PPC's up high. Or giving the Timberwolf A a very good firerate missile launcher without the D's or S's ones being added for it to apply on 3 instead of 1, However I do want multiple omnipods of that type to still be better overall at the end over a quirked weapon, for instance the kitfox with 2 MG's will get the most quirks but with 4 it will still have a noticable change over the 2 without the 2 MG being obselete or over peforming the said 4 mg load out.

This is something IS mechs should also kinda work with in a different aspect, as due to quirks like the Dragon 1N, you got AC 5's firing like non-jammable 1 ton lighter UAC 5's, essentually cutting the tonnage by half if you think of the dragon 1N as a mech with 4 AC 5's, or with OP 2 UAC 5's, reguardless of how you look at it, it is doing the same dakka as a 95 to 100 ton battlemech of any faction while also making any other weapon load out obselete to the dragon... 1 AC 10 with 25% quirks is no where near as effecient as 2 AC 5's with 50% firerate, Nore is 2 AC 2's or 2 UAC 5's. )

[Mercules]

Nightshade24, on 06 June 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

My timberwolf got screwed over and it only had 2 ER PPC's for Energy weapons. The sad part is that ignores half the nerfs due to the fact PPC has no duration and I still needed to make a build to replace that PPC with something like an LBX 10 or UAC 10 (I switch them around time to time).

Oh yeah, totally, it went from Best Mech in Game it Still One of the Best Mechs in Game. You were robbed, uninstall.

[Nightshade24]

Mercules, on 07 June 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Oh yeah, totally, it went from Best Mech in Game it Still One of the Best Mechs in Game. You were robbed, uninstall.

At least it doesn't have the same firepower as an assault mech unlike some IS heavy and mediums...
... or have armour of a mech 15 tons heavier then itself or have mechs with nearly double it's armour...


when a gargoyle has the same armour as an atlas and a mist lynx has 40 points of armour in some areas then I'll be happy for evens.

[Mercules]

Nightshade24, on 07 June 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

At least it doesn't have the same firepower as an assault mech unlike some IS heavy and mediums...
... or have armour of a mech 15 tons heavier then itself or have mechs with nearly double it's armour...

No, instead it has a great blend of firepower, hitboxes, armour, survivability, and speed. Which is why it lost some of it's firepower. The IS Dragon has REALLY crappy hitboxes and can mount an engine that won't let it carry much for firepower and go fast or could carry firepower and go fast but be vulnerable to losing one side and being out of the fight. The Dragon that has the firepower also requires ammo for that firepower which the Timberwolves did not.

See, you are pointing at, "Well this IS mech has more X." Ignoring that it lacks one or more of V, W, Y, and/or Z.

[Nightshade24]

Mercules, on 08 June 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

No, instead it has a great blend of firepower, hitboxes, armour, survivability, and speed. Which is why it lost some of it's firepower. The IS Dragon has REALLY crappy hitboxes and can mount an engine that won't let it carry much for firepower and go fast or could carry firepower and go fast but be vulnerable to losing one side and being out of the fight. The Dragon that has the firepower also requires ammo for that firepower which the Timberwolves did not.

See, you are pointing at, "Well this IS mech has more X." Ignoring that it lacks one or more of V, W, Y, and/or Z.

There are plenty of IS mechs out there with more durrable then the timberwolf and the Dragons hitbox basicly has a get out of jail free card, one of the most IS XL friendliest mechs out there. if it was a Clan XL or IS XL for the dragon neither makes much of a difference.

A dragon does not simply lose a side torso, neither does a catapult or a jenner. I guess it could happen from the rear but the funny thing is at least for my catapult is when people target me from the rear to my side torso the front gets damaged and the front never gets damaged from well, the front. So essentially i got my armour to 3 to 0 on most catapult side torso and got around 40+ for the sides, never died in an XL side torso death yet in 2 years of playing this game at low or high elo, at CW or normal matches. Not really boasting here, as this is common catapult behavior and basicly anyone who plays it a lot will have the same results (unless playing it wrong or simply asking for trouble)

Oh, and the Catapults match the long range firepower of the timberwolf on all models common buiilds, while the jester can out run the mad cat with very simular damage profile, more jumpjets then meta wolf, and was much cooler then a meta wolf, would win in an engagement under 500 meters any day and a 96 kph mech with double ams could get closer then 600 meters for that momment with ease. (note: I ran double AMS on my build, other people could upgrade heatsinks or engines as well, if DHS upgrade, er large lasers can be a substitute for the normal large lasers and thus pushes the range the jester needs...)

just nailing down your "X, V, W, Y, Z" statement. Oh did I also mention the catapult is one of the easiest mechs to role armour and has some components matching the same armour as a timberwolf? That's quite mad!... cat.

That's me just talking about 1 specific mech; the same way you talked about the dragon specifically...


Also do indulge me, Tell me what the Gargoyle out does from the IS side? or mist lynx to the clan side?

Because most IS mechs around 20 to 30 tons out run, has higher armour by quirks, has more firepower, has more heat efficiency, can have ecm, and in some cases (spider) out JJ it.

This is not me going "oh, bla bla bla bla X! not V, M, Y, Z...", this is just in general. Streak boat is the only thing that comes to mind but all mechs 20 to 30 tons for IS has ECM, 2 of them has double AMS, and a handful of them can spew faster velocity and higher rate of fire SSRM 2's back, with the quirks then those will do greator DPS over time then the mist lynx carrying 2 SSRM 4 or 3 SSRM 2... *

*in the long term. however the lower clan SSRM speed paired with the insane speeds of the IS competetors, ranging 160 to 170 kphs.... I have never had issues with SSRM boats from clans with my locusts, comandoes, and spiders... sometimes it feels I can out run the SSRMs, haha....

[Mercules]

Nightshade24, on 08 June 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

There are plenty of IS mechs out there with more durrable then the timberwolf and the Dragons hitbox basicly has a get out of jail free card, one of the most IS XL friendliest mechs out there. if it was a Clan XL or IS XL for the dragon neither makes much of a difference.

Sure, more durable but then they tend to lack the firepower, or the hitboxes, or the possible JJs, or the speed. Seriously, there are all mechs that outclass the Timberwolf in one or more areas, none that seem to match it in all areas.

Nightshade24, on 08 June 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

A dragon does not simply lose a side torso, neither does a catapult or a jenner.

You picked the three mechs notorious for being CT cored before losing anything else as an example of improved durability? The reason the Catapult, Jenner, and Dragon are XL friendly(much like the Banshee) is because they will core out your CT if they can aim so they won't waste time on a side toros and hope you have an XL unless it is already pretty much gone. That is why you are almost never RT/LT killed, because they can CT you very easily.

Nightshade24, on 08 June 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

Oh, and the Catapults match the long range firepower of the timberwolf on all models common buiilds, while the jester can out run the mad cat with very simular damage profile, more jumpjets then meta wolf, and was much cooler then a meta wolf, would win in an engagement under 500 meters any day and a 96 kph mech with double ams could get closer then 600 meters for that momment with ease.

Again, a mech with a notoriously easily hit CT and on top of that carries LESS ARMOR. The Jester is a hero mech sure it can do a few things the base CPTLs can't.

Nightshade24, on 08 June 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

just nailing down your "X, V, W, Y, Z" statement. Oh did I also mention the catapult is one of the easiest mechs to role armour and has some components matching the same armour as a timberwolf? That's quite mad!... cat.

You haven't, you have again pointed out how you compare certain aspects in a vacuum and ignore the others.

Nightshade24, on 08 June 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

Also do indulge me, Tell me what the Gargoyle out does from the IS side? or mist lynx to the clan side?

Gargoyle has NOTHING to do with the Timberwolf being "nerfed". Okay, I take that back, the Gargoyle being a Clan Mech that isn't a Timberwolf or Stormcrow means the Timberwolf and Stormcrow need to be nerfed a tiny bit so that it becomes viable.

See you are complaining about your Timberwolf, which is still one of the best mechs in the game even with the slight nerf. We all get the Gargoyle needs a quirk pass to give it something that brings it closer to the best mechs in the game... like the TIMBERWOLF and STORMCROW. IS has a few really good mechs as well. They can compete with the Timberwolves and Stormcrows because they outclass them a bit in one area, but are worse in others. Asymmetrical balance is all you are going to get in a game like this.


Catapult and Dragon have horrible, horrible hitboxes. Stormcrow and Timberwolf have really solid hitboxes that spread damage like crazy. They also have an XL that doesn't pop saving them weight for their lighter weapons that take less space so they can load ammo and heatsinks and....

Edited by Mercules, 08 June 2015 - 03:11 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Mercules, on 08 June 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

Sure, more durable but then they tend to lack the firepower, or the hitboxes, or the possible JJs, or the speed. Seriously, there are all mechs that outclass the Timberwolf in one or more areas, none that seem to match it in all areas.

You picked the three mechs notorious for being CT cored before losing anything else as an example of improved durability? The reason the Catapult, Jenner, and Dragon are XL friendly(much like the Banshee) is because they will core out your CT if they can aim so they won't waste time on a side toros and hope you have an XL unless it is already pretty much gone. That is why you are almost never RT/LT killed, because they can CT you very easily.

Again, a mech with a notoriously easily hit CT and on top of that carries LESS ARMOR. The Jester is a hero mech sure it can do a few things the base CPTLs can't.

You haven't, you have again pointed out how you compare certain aspects in a vacuum and ignore the others.

Gargoyle has NOTHING to do with the Timberwolf being "nerfed". Okay, I take that back, the Gargoyle being a Clan Mech that isn't a Timberwolf or Stormcrow means the Timberwolf and Stormcrow need to be nerfed a tiny bit so that it becomes viable.

See you are complaining about your Timberwolf, which is still one of the best mechs in the game even with the slight nerf. We all get the Gargoyle needs a quirk pass to give it something that brings it closer to the best mechs in the game... like the TIMBERWOLF and STORMCROW. IS has a few really good mechs as well. They can compete with the Timberwolves and Stormcrows because they outclass them a bit in one area, but are worse in others. Asymmetrical balance is all you are going to get in a game like this.

Catapult and Dragon have horrible, horrible hitboxes. Stormcrow and Timberwolf have really solid hitboxes that spread damage like crazy. They also have an XL that doesn't pop saving them weight for their lighter weapons that take less space so they can load ammo and heatsinks and....

1) Not really, as stated in earlier post

2) "I" picked one of the tree mmechs notorious of being a large CT? Nope, you did. This was my response to your earlier post.

3) less armour for a lighter mech, I'm sorry it's no battlemaster 2C that carries more armour then a direwolf (which is a mech 15 tons heavier and has worse hitbox). But even with less armour value it still surpass it in durability. Anyway like you try to accuse above. time for the vice versa: you're now complaining about X even though this thing is better in V, W, Y, Z. etc.

4) reffer to above; oh the irony...

5) I didn't say that, I mentioned it in the previous post which you started complaining about, the gargoyle and mist lynx has just as much to do about a comment about CLAN QUIRKS of the gargoyle, mist lynx, and timberwolf, as it does with any other conversation with the gargoyle, mist lynx, and timberwolf.

Also this thing is not 'more viable' after this nerf, they could make the timberwolf have a reload so long for a er medium laser you can only fire it twice a CW match but the Gargoyle will be no more or less effective as it was before.

6) Not really, it's probably the 12th most best mech in game, and it's quite a large nerf... none of the IS mechs got a nerf in that patch that forced it into the negatives and they also got buffs to increase other stuff.

Where's my timberwolf 10-30% cooldown reduction quirks? where's my Stormcrows UAC 20 or LBX 10 quirks? wheres the MG RoF quirk or ER PPC quirk on the timberwolf?
because the stalker 4N has it's missile quirk buffed after that patch.
The Raven got it's bufffs after the patch.


7) hah... Timberwolf has a good hitbox... It's side torsoes are quite large, and they get larger if you dare put missiles there. Oh and they do pop with there XL's after the other ST gets destroyed, which is highly likely as you can hit the timberwolfs side torsoes from any side, angle, and possition. It's like destroying the thunchbacks hunch but on a smaller scale on both sides.

[Mercules]

Nightshade24, on 08 June 2015 - 09:43 PM, said:

Stuff that has nothing to do with what we were discussing which was.

Nightshade24, on 06 June 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

My timberwolf got screwed over and it only had 2 ER PPC's for Energy weapons. The sad part is that ignores half the nerfs due to the fact PPC has no duration and I still needed to make a build to replace that PPC with something like an LBX 10 or UAC 10 (I switch them around time to time).

No, your Timberwolf did not get screwed. The Gargoyle discussion is a Red Herring. The "Oh yeah well when my mechs get IS level quirks!" is a Moving Target. Discussion is about the Timberwolves and Stormcrows which are still solid mechs able to stand up to all other Clan mechs and even IS Meta Mechs.

Nightshade24, on 08 June 2015 - 09:43 PM, said:

6) Not really, it's probably the 12th most best mech in game, and it's quite a large nerf... none of the IS mechs got a nerf in that patch that forced it into the negatives and they also got buffs to increase other stuff.

"most best"?

English aside, Timberwolves were the mechs every other mech was quirked to contend with. Even if you don't believe they are top dog now, they were until this quirk pass. When they attempted to bring other mechs up to that point we complained because some of them were getting really out of hand. So they knocked the top down a peg. That would be why it didn't get positive quirks... because it was the top of the yard stick measuring mechs.

I don't know if they needed to go that far.... typical overbalance.... but even if it dropped 3 places that puts it in 4th and still one of the top mechs.

Nightshade24, on 08 June 2015 - 09:43 PM, said:

7) hah... Timberwolf has a good hitbox... It's side torsoes are quite large, and they get larger if you dare put missiles there. Oh and they do pop with there XL's after the other ST gets destroyed, which is highly likely as you can hit the timberwolfs side torsoes from any side, angle, and possition. It's like destroying the thunchbacks hunch but on a smaller scale on both sides.

Yeah, GOOD hitboxes, not godlike, not incredible, not "something is wrong I swear I hit that thing", hitboxes.


--------------------------------------------------
See, this discussion is about the Timberwolf and Stormcrow and you keep throwing in Clan vrs IS butthurt. Save it for another thread. IS got buffs to bring it UP TO Clan levels, that is why the better Clan mechs didn't get any bonuses(just like certain IS Mechs that were considered Top Tier at the time) and the two top ones actually got negative. Now some of the lower Clan mechs still need a Quirk pass to make them comparable to the adjusted Timberwolf.

....but I digress.

[Nightshade24]

Mercules, on 09 June 2015 - 04:28 AM, said:

See, this discussion is about the Timberwolf and Stormcrow and you keep throwing in Clan vrs IS butthurt. Save it for another thread. IS got buffs to bring it UP TO Clan levels, that is why the better Clan mechs didn't get any bonuses(just like certain IS Mechs that were considered Top Tier at the time) and the two top ones actually got negative. Now some of the lower Clan mechs still need a Quirk pass to make them comparable to the adjusted Timberwolf.

....but I digress.

You keep generalizing the entire clans side by 2 specific mechs under 2 even more specific load outs.
The non 2 Large pulse 4 er medium timberwolf for eg was the top dog for the timberwolf, But typically anything different then is as competitive as a grasshopper.
When was the last time you saw a Timberwolf with an LBX, UAC, Ac, MG, any non meta laser, ER PPC, LRM's, or what have you and do good? When have you ever saw a timberwolf prime use the CT ballistics hardpoints.

I bet if they give the timberwolf even a 20% missile cooldown or LRM cooldown it wouldn't make it any 'better' in the meta.
nor would giving it a UAC 5 quirk or MG RoF.

or a UAC 20 or LBX 10 for the stormcrow, or LRM 20 or NARC quirk.


PS: The IS quirks were not only to bring the IS to the standard (at least in your mind) of the timberwolf and stormcrow.
it was also to the standard of the jenner, cataphract, victor, and highlander, and atlas. (boy times have changed since then...).
If you do not believe me: then why after the full IS quirkening, these mechs were famous for having barely any to zero quirks and are considered the best IS mechs on the list.

Can you mind telling me when quirks will raise all the clan mechs to IS levels then? Kinda unfair the IS already have 3070 technology like the Light gauss rifle and RAC 5's...

[IraqiWalker]

VinJade, on 21 May 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

no it is what SOME of you want, already bad enough you and your buddies screwed over the TW & Crow so you want to keep going until you ruin all the mechs that the clans have.

pgi are already IS favored and you want to help give them more of a reason to screw clans over.

if people are so dead set against the Clan being rightfully so better than why have them in the game at all?

This is a 12 v 12 game. You can't have one side be clearly superior to the other. That kind of thinking doesn't work in PVP. If it was PVE, sure, I would campaign for it, but in this game, we need balance between the two sides.

Especially considering the "nerfs" haven't really hurt the Timberwolf, and SCR, they are still the two strongest mechs in the game.

Nightshade24, on 09 June 2015 - 08:57 PM, said:

You keep generalizing the entire clans side by 2 specific mechs under 2 even more specific load outs.
The non 2 Large pulse 4 er medium timberwolf for eg was the top dog for the timberwolf, But typically anything different then is as competitive as a grasshopper.
When was the last time you saw a Timberwolf with an LBX, UAC, Ac, MG, any non meta laser, ER PPC, LRM's, or what have you and do good? When have you ever saw a timberwolf prime use the CT ballistics hardpoints.

I bet if they give the timberwolf even a 20% missile cooldown or LRM cooldown it wouldn't make it any 'better' in the meta.
nor would giving it a UAC 5 quirk or MG RoF.

or a UAC 20 or LBX 10 for the stormcrow, or LRM 20 or NARC quirk.


PS: The IS quirks were not only to bring the IS to the standard (at least in your mind) of the timberwolf and stormcrow.
it was also to the standard of the jenner, cataphract, victor, and highlander, and atlas. (boy times have changed since then...).
If you do not believe me: then why after the full IS quirkening, these mechs were famous for having barely any to zero quirks and are considered the best IS mechs on the list.

Can you mind telling me when quirks will raise all the clan mechs to IS levels then? Kinda unfair the IS already have 3070 technology like the Light gauss rifle and RAC 5's...

Actually, just a couple days ago 2xUAC10 TBR, with the entire left side as a shield. He wrecked some faces. I'm seeing more varied loadouts on the TBR, and SCR now, than before.

EDIT: When did we get quirks that reduce the weight of Gauss Rifles? I would really to see those.

ShadowFire, on 06 June 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

I wonder just how many IS pilot screaming for clan nerfs even realize that the Timberwolf and Stormcrow were nerfed right out of the box with one mech module slot and one weapon slot? Just how many IS pilots would just say... I don't need those slots.

Or what would the IS pilots think if they had to dump half their ammo to equip almost useless Jump Jets or in another example, what use are all those heat sinks when they wish to build a gun/missle mech and need those tons for ammo? Most IS only pilots think one can build any type of mech using the Clan omni system but in fact Clan mech building is very restricted by locked in slots and engine sizes.

BTW, The only reason most clanners piloted those two mechs was because the other clan mechs were/are so mediocre. The Hellbringer really is not much of a mech and only brings to the field a ECM mech in the heavy class.

You do realize you can CHOOSE to not equip more JJs than you need, right? The TBR, and SCR haven't been nerfed, the one less module slot is going to house what? Once you master it, you already have enough for Seismic, and Radar Dep. What's the third module, 360 target retention?

Also, please dial back the hyperbole, you don't need to dump half your ammo. At most, you need to dump 2 tons, if any to equip the JJs.

There's a difference between you not building the mech right, and the mech being nerfed. I can run a 6 SL stalker, and complain that it's a bad mech, but that's not the mech's fault. That's mine.

Also, the HBR brings more than just ECM. It brings high mounted energy weapons as well. It's a good mech, one of the better clan ones. I don't think it needs a heavy nerf at all. Maybe a nerf when slapping more than 6 ERMLs.

Torchfire, on 03 June 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Yet IS meta mechs that performed better prior to SCR/TBR nerf still have positive quirks for their meta loads. Interesting. As it is now, the margin between SCR/TBR and the IS mechs just got wider, and not in favor of the Clans.



The 8 SPL FS9 was viable before it ever got buffed. A couple friends and I used to run them prior to the quirkening.

Let me explain what nerfs mean. Nerfs don't need to be negative quirks. They can be reductions to positive quirks. Which is what happened to the IS top performers.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 09 June 2015 - 09:14 PM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

HBR dont need nerf. DWS does.

[IraqiWalker]

Titannium, on 10 June 2015 - 12:40 AM, said:

HBR dont need nerf. DWS does.

I honestly think neither needs one. the DWF is slow enough to make up for whatever it brings.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Its fine as it is. Its doesn't have Endo steel, it doesn't have Ferro Fibrous, it doesn't have Jump Jets. It only has ECM.
If people get rekt because they use LRM only setups they deserve to lose. The Hellbringer is a good mech, yes. But its not OP nor overly strong.

Esp. with the upcoming Cauldron Born, you have now a valid choice between a good support Mech with good Firepower and ECM or to go all out without ECM and more firepower. I guess, the setup between Hellbringer and Cauldron Born is the first real good balanced choice we have in MWO regarding Clan mechs of the same tonnage.

Other than that, its not that the Hellbringer is too strong, its more about some chassis surrounding it are too weak, namely Summoner, Gargoyle and Mad Dog.

One suggestion was to enable at least one upgrade for any Clan mech (Endo/Ferro) and if it already has one upgrade, that you can switch it to another (Endo for Ferro) - this will help to align Clan mechs better to each other and boost the performance of the very bad mechs we have.

It won't fix all the problems, but it would be a good first pass. Another point could be, that all mechs equipped with fixed Jump Jets have a mimimum cap of JJ mounted, so you can release all others on top of them. Lets say the min-amount is 2 JJ. (Yes, there are mechs with 1 JJ possible - thats okay, as the real problem are mechs equipped with 4+ JJ and cannot make a good use of them)

Last point would be possible engine modification on mechs that are underperforming because of it, like the current Setup of Clan Lights, the running fridge, the Nova, the Gargoyle and maybe even the upcoming Executioner. Warhawk may be included into that list.

But thats fine-tuning.

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 10 June 2015 - 03:07 AM.

[Mercules]

Nightshade24, on 09 June 2015 - 08:57 PM, said:

You keep generalizing the entire clans side by 2 specific mechs under 2 even more specific load outs.

Yes, because....


SomePeople(not naming names): Waaaaaaaaah! My Timberwolf is broken because the specific overpowered loadout I want to run has been nerfed!
Me: It's not that bad.
SomePeople: No it's really, really, really, really, bad. This IS mech gets more firepower that a Timberwolf.
Me: It has crappy hitboxes and all that firepower is on one arm making it vulnerable.
SomePeople: Oh yeah, well certain IS mechs get more armor than the Gargoyle.
Me: How does that relate to the Timberwolf being good or bad?
SomePeople: Your just focussing on the Timberwolf and ignoring how Clan and IS stack up.
Me: Um, yeah.... because we were discussing how your Timberwolf sucks even though it is still one of the best Heavies in the game?



OP was implying the Hellbringer should get nerfs in an attempt to say their Timberwolf sucks so the Hellbringer should be nerfed as well. I said Timberwolf doesn't suck. You stated it does. I was never stating the Gargoyle was a perfect mech, or the realative power level between Clans and IS. You keep trying to make your point about the Timberwolf sucking by bringing up non-related issues. Is that because you can't actually make an argument for the Timberwolf sucking?

[Nightshade24]

Mercules, on 10 June 2015 - 05:15 AM, said:

Yes, because....


SomePeople(not naming names): Waaaaaaaaah! My Timberwolf is broken because the specific overpowered loadout I want to run has been nerfed!
Me: It's not that bad.
SomePeople: No it's really, really, really, really, bad. This IS mech gets more firepower that a Timberwolf.
Me: It has crappy hitboxes and all that firepower is on one arm making it vulnerable.
SomePeople: Oh yeah, well certain IS mechs get more armor than the Gargoyle.
Me: How does that relate to the Timberwolf being good or bad?
SomePeople: Your just focussing on the Timberwolf and ignoring how Clan and IS stack up.
Me: Um, yeah.... because we were discussing how your Timberwolf sucks even though it is still one of the best Heavies in the game?



OP was implying the Hellbringer should get nerfs in an attempt to say their Timberwolf sucks so the Hellbringer should be nerfed as well. I said Timberwolf doesn't suck. You stated it does. I was never stating the Gargoyle was a perfect mech, or the realative power level between Clans and IS. You keep trying to make your point about the Timberwolf sucking by bringing up non-related issues. Is that because you can't actually make an argument for the Timberwolf sucking?

Nope, not really, just pointing flaws in other peoples posts as well as referring back to my original one on the whole quirking business. I could probably sit here and keep having another comeback in the discussion for weeks (as which happened on other places on the internet with me and on other topics), however it often ends with the other person simply getting there nickers twisted and them raging like a child on how I am stupid even though they just failed to spell the world stupid even though I can spell it and English is my third language, then the debate switches on how credible my resources or statements are over his and poorly thought insults come up like "you are a neo communist!" or "I bet that's what your mother said when... [insert situation here ie "when I was born"] etc.

personally I often loose interest when I have to repeat myself 5 times because the person failed to read or stated they didn't even read it the first time round... then the second... and third... and forth, etc.

When people can't tell the difference between d***o and there underwear and use language only a marginalized 8 year old would know then I deem that a waste of time as the debate has fallen into a petty argument where no one has learned anything besides the fact I should avoid talking to X person as they will start crying about later on about [insert made up fact about me he's trying to spread that makes me look bad, ie a made up quote of me saying the Dragon 1N is underpowered or the ER large laser for clans is UP or flamer hsa to much firepower or some other made up context like that] or just whine at anything I say from that point on.


Which I would rather stop talking to you or the other person now about as the last thing I want is 2 more people who have a grudge against me who stalks me until the whole community of the game hates me or is neutral about me.


Which happened once on the War Thunder forums back when I didn't learn about the values of "doing nothing" or "backing down" instead of continuing to press on.

to get back to the debate:

Also the timberwolf sucking (oh and please do not copy paste that out of context for 1 of the examples I said above just to get bad publicity out of this) is tied to the same reason the other clan mechs suck. It's due to the omnitech rule and the fact PGI don't know how to quirk Clan mechs.
They took what... 2 years to quirk IS mechs and to a decent standard however... Locust 1V, 3V, Cicada 2C, Dragon 1N, Grid iron, Huginn, Battlemaster 2C... my eyes are on you....
While they tried to rush quirks for Clans and it's poorly made.


I still think clans would be better of if out of the "100%" of the quirks they get. (ie timberwolf D getting a 30% ER PPC heat reduction for eg), 50% is from the omnipods (15% ER PPC heat reduction totle, 7.5% on each arm), 25% from the CT (7.5% ER PPC heat reduction from CT, with arms = 22.5%) and another 25% from the omnipod set bonus (7.5%, total = 30%)

This way the stock config of the Timberwolf D gets 30% Heat reduction on ER PPC's, while using the same omnipods (ie arms) on another timberwolf (ie Prime) would only give 15% heat reduction. And even if you want a ER PPC spewer timberwolf with high omnipods, you getting the A on the D will bring the possible negative quirks of the A as well as breaking the omnipod set bonus and thus you will not have to powerful of a ER PPC spewer.

While the stock D configeration and simular configeration with same omnipods will be good and the omnipod set bonus can provide another bonus (minor) like 10% er ppc velocity.


This will help in the following areas...

1) help stock configerations, help the mech remain with it's indentity and iconic, punishes people who spam the same build on every timberwolf (ie 4 x er medium laser, 2 x large pulse), yet still supports switching omnipods.
As an example with another mech... the kitfox.

Ofc the kitfox S and C have 2 MG's on them (in different locations) and may have good MG quirks, but having 4 MG's may drop the omnipod set bonus BUT will not hinder you if you break the omnipod set bonus.

Just an example that kinda works right now in a way.



This will also make each alt.config unique. So now you have more choices to decide on each alt config then. "What's the CT weapon omnipod?" and then sale the other ones as they are useless and can be rebuilt with the one you picked.



KEEP IN MIND: the numbers I said are place holder numbers so to say. maybe more of the quirk is CT and omnipod set bonus related or the timberwolf D should get a 20% total quirk for bla bla. However I only mentioned 1 qurik and didn't mention possible ballancing such as having beam duration nerfs on the D arms or how some omnipods interact with others in some ways. However i believe a new quirk system for Clans is needed and fast as it'll help clans a lot without making OP builds and will make ballancing easier after the mechanics are done and finalized. These things will also help a clan hero mech be something unique. (1 rule for hero clan mechs I think is not allowing any hero omnipods going to the non hero variants... just to prevent ECM on timberwolfs or Direwolfs with 9 UAC 2's at least to a degree...)