78 replies to this topic

[bad arcade kitty]

1 mg shot weights 0.5 kg
real 14mm/0.50 huge machine gun shots weight like 0.2 kg...
also the range of the mwo machine gun is like of a real pistol, real mgs can shoot for several kilometers

[Zordicron]

stjobe, on 27 May 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

Here's the funny part: The MG actually had a DPS of 1 for a while.

Then they "pro-actively" nerfed it "in preparation for upcoming fixes" to 0.8 DPS.

I've spent way, way too much time fighting to buff the MG (back when it had 0.4 DPS and no extra damage or crit chance).

Some fun MG facts:
* The MG is a hit-scan laser with bullet graphics.
* The MG was the first so-called "crit weapon" - an utterly redundant category of weapons.
* Because ALL weapons can crit - in fact, all weapons have a 42% chance to crit on an exposed section.
* The MG has a lower chance to crit than any other "crit weapon" (LBX, flamer).
* It only has 10% more chance to crit than all the non-"crit weapons".
* It does have a rather large crit multiplier of 9 though.
* But then again, each hit does only 0.08 damage (before crit damage).
* So a full 3-crit hit does 0.08 * 9 * 3 = 2.16 damage.
* 15% of that is applied again as bonus IS damage. That's a whopping 0.3 damage.
* An AC/10 that hits an exposed crit location destroys that location without even needing a crit.


If anyone's interested, here's a Brief History of the MG in MWO:



I started campaigning for a buff to the MG back in the Mk. I days. It took a while but in Spring 2013 they actually started to buff it.

The Mk. II was still rather useless, but the Mk. III started to feel like it wasn't a complete waste of tonnage.

The Mk. IV and Mk. V are the same, except the Mk. V does 15% of its damage as bonus damage to internal structure as well.

Mk. V was the one with the highest damage, it made it useful to pack even two MGs on a 'mech. Sadly, people complained rather vocally about the 6-MG JagerMech (completely ignoring its dual PPCs and heavy-class armour), so it was quickly nerfed into Mk. VI.

Why they thought Mk. VI was too powerful and needed a nerf is beyond me, it took the MG back to the bad old days where it was useless unless you could mount at least three, preferably four or more.

So yes, needless to say I am all for a buff back to Mk. VI levels.

Mark IV was where it was at. That was the golden age of my Cicada 3C with it's erppc and quad MG loadout. Snipe early, add focus dmg when applicable, and when the inevitable fuzzball started to creep up, move in with your fatty pals and ninja MG anything missing armor on any enemy, comp destructions everywhere, enemies losing weapons and limbs left and right. It was glorious.

Current MG are not good. At all. IMO, they nerfed it for absolutely no reason. MG were useful during the Mk IV days, but you had to have face time. I mean, it's a DPS gun, no heat and zilcho range, who do you think wins in a fight? quad MG light, or triple MG arm larger chassis, or that triple SRM4/AC20 Centurian or even somthing like a Jenner with dual SRM4 popping shots off as you try to chase it around with dmg spraying everywhere?

MG had a utility as part of a weapons loadout. 6x MG Jagers were fun, but at least three times as hard to run as AC40, and they didnt do anything about AC20's, just add ghost heat. Seriously, 6 DPS is nothing when it requires 100% face time. ODn't believe me? Try it on an Arrow. you can make it work, because you have 2ML and a LPL to do the actual dmg with little face time and no heat MG when you go to vulture off a crippled enemy. if you try to "stare down" an enemy to use those MG on a fresh mech, you are going to get rekt.


So, does anyone actually know WHY they nerfed the MG last time? When I saw it, I was like "Dude, WTF? Mg are weaksauce, and you nerfed them?" I think it might be like the greatest unsolved mystery of MWO.

[bad arcade kitty]

well, if you are cored, mgs will kill you faster than lasers

[Deathlike]

stjobe, on 27 May 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

If anyone's interested, here's a Brief History of the MG in MWO:

The fact you even have documented in a such a manner means you think it's srs business.

Seriously, if we could do all balancing posts like that...

[Past]

An easy buff would be to give mechs with the Ballistic heat, cooldown & velocity quirks an additional Machine gun rate of fire quirk of an equal value as the heat, cooldown & velocity ones have no affect on machine guns.

Edited by Past, 27 May 2015 - 05:15 PM.

[Eyepop]

Mk. IV there would be glorious. But really, pretty much anything would be better than what we have now.

When was the last time that PGI actually changed a weapon, though? It seems like quirks are all they know, now.

Past, on 27 May 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

An easy buff would be to give mechs with the Ballistic heat and cooldown quirks an additional Machine gun rate of fire quirk of an equal value as the heat and cooldown ones have no affect on machine guns.

Machine guns don't create any heat. Are you suggesting that the heat quirk should create a RoF quirk, as well as the cooldown ones? So that someone with -20% Ballistic heat and -20% Ballistic cooldown would get +40% MG RoF?

That would be nice for those mechs, but quirks are the worst way to try to balance a weapon that is bad across the board. Why should a DRG-1N have the best machine guns?

[Mcgral18]

bad arcade kitty, on 27 May 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

well, if you are cored, mgs will kill you faster than lasers

I have my doubts.
Let us Maths.


BJ1x VS BJ-A?

42 laser damage VS 21 and 6 MGs.

6 MGs in 1 second deal 4.8 damage. Let's assume armour is already open, and a Atlas.


62 Internal Structure


MGs have a 52% crit chance, 31% 1 crit, 17% 2 crit and 4% 3 crit.

So, 31% chance to deal 0.108 extra damage (AKA, doing the old damage)
17% chance to deal 0.216 extra damage
4% chance to deal 0.324 extra damage

Of 100 shots, where 52 crit, instead of dealing 8 damage, you'd deal 16.316 damage.

Over twice what you'd get against armour.


While the lasers put out 42 damage every ~4 seconds, the MGs in 4 seconds would put out 240 rounds, or 38.4 damage, spread across a hitbox or three.

Plus the 21 of the lasers.



I guess if RNJesus is in your favour and you're within 10 meters, you might be right. They just feel so weak most of the time.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I think at 1.0 dps is where they should be.

Matching up to IS small laser dps, simply being a cold + limited ammunition equivalent of the Small laser.

1 single MG and 1/2 ton of ammo to feed it, is still twice as heavy and twice as many slots as a SL.

Cone of fire too so no PPFLD unless you're under 90 meters or point blank.

It might have been nerfed down because of firstly the Ember.. 4 MG's were fairly powerful at that time, then Huggin.
Then we got the Arrow mounting 6.

That is what makes them unique though, being able to mount a completely crap weapon, but enough of them to be useful.

I mean really.. are 6 IS small lasers really that scary, now with Clan SPL boats running around?

I think keeping its crit rate where it is at is fine, but get DPS back to 1.0 where it belongs.

Edited by Mister D, 29 May 2015 - 01:06 AM.

[TheStrider]

I would love a return to Mark VI days. It felt "just right"™.

My Ember and Jagger would love to return to using them.

[Ragtag soldier]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

MGs deal the same damage as AC2s.
They are a low damage, heatless weapon. They are designed to destroy mech armour.

a burst (of something around ten rounds) of the armor piercing rounds to the same spot do about as much damage as a single shell from a class two autocannon. it's an anti-infantry weapon that does middling damage to armor if pressed. they're designed to cut down a significant amount of standard infantry without forcing the mech to turn more valuable weapons to the task.

FupDup, on 27 May 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

Your face is a weapon for fighting infantry.


...No really, it is!

thanks, 'tis always a joy to see the fear and despair wash over mine enemies knowing the shame of being compared to as fine a specimen as me!

Madcap72, on 27 May 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

MG's can be SUPER effective if played right. The Urbie with 4 MG's and the fire rate quirk is a component critting animal.

I'd rather see flamers get made to be more useful first, so they can be more effective in role warefare/ team builds.

flamers don't even need to be buffed, they just need to have that heat glitch fixed! it's not supposed to overtax a full 20 DHS and detonate your engine, devs......

[Mcgral18]

Ragtag soldier, on 27 May 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

a burst (of something around ten rounds) of the armor piercing rounds to the same spot do about as much damage as a single shell from a class two autocannon. it's an anti-infantry weapon that does middling damage to armor if pressed. they're designed to cut down a significant amount of standard infantry without forcing the mech to turn more valuable weapons to the task.

You mean 2-20 rounds from a Class 2 Auto Cannon.


That's right, ACs are burst weapons.



Try harder.

[Zordicron]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

I have my doubts.
Let us Maths.


BJ1x VS BJ-A?

42 laser damage VS 21 and 6 MGs.

6 MGs in 1 second deal 4.8 damage. Let's assume armour is already open, and a Atlas.


62 Internal Structure


MGs have a 52% crit chance, 31% 1 crit, 17% 2 crit and 4% 3 crit.

So, 31% chance to deal 0.108 extra damage (AKA, doing the old damage)
17% chance to deal 0.216 extra damage
4% chance to deal 0.324 extra damage

Of 100 shots, where 52 crit, instead of dealing 8 damage, you'd deal 16.316 damage.

Over twice what you'd get against armour.


While the lasers put out 42 damage every ~4 seconds, the MGs in 4 seconds would put out 240 rounds, or 38.4 damage, spread across a hitbox or three.

Plus the 21 of the lasers.



I guess if RNJesus is in your favour and you're within 10 meters, you might be right. They just feel so weak most of the time.

So then, spreadsheet warrior mode activate i see.(just being cheeky)

So then, the MG Blackjack has an advantage! Wait a sec....

You are going to take a BJ, and STARE AT AN ATLAS for 4 seconds. Please, please, do that to my Atlas. I DARE you.

See, thats why MG can be so underwhelming, even if they look OK on spreadsheets. In laservomit peek a boo warrior online, if you can't stick your dmg in less then 2 seconds so you can return to cover, then it is moot.

Now, that isnt to say the 6 MG might not STILL have some kind of advantage. IMO a better comparison would be to take the MG damage, and limit it to the duration of the ML on the Arrow, because once your laser dmg is "stuck" to that atlas, you are not going to just sit there, you are going to twist and retreat behind your hill or building.

Then we have to look at things like heat and sustainability, because lets face it, if you are fighitng an Atlas at MG range, the fuzzball is REAL. Comparing the length of sustained fire(in peek a boo form) isnt even cut and dried, as peek a boo allows you to dissipate heat in between shots, and targets too.

it all becomes a whole lot more convoluted when you take reality of gameplay and try to inject it into a balance spreadsheet. The deeper you go, the more you will find MG get pushed farther and farther down behind other weapons. Heat and dmg dealt, tonnage, ammo risks, range, face time, sustainability, crit slot space requirments. In the end, the IS small laser has been better than MG in every way since I started playing in month 1 of open beta.

So then we get back to the OP. When all ya got is ballistic Hardpoints, and you are running a mech so smah, MG is what ya got, and they are underwhelming in most circumstances to say the least.

[Bleary]

I remember that brief, glorious season when people actually mounted machine guns on purpose. Not to troll; not to compete in tournaments either, but still - it was an actual weapon. People shaved a ton or two off their builds so they could fill those random 2-3 ballistic mounts with machine guns. They filled a limited but real role.

Then PGI shoved them back in the flamer ghetto. I haven't fired a machine gun this year.

Edited by Bleary, 27 May 2015 - 07:27 PM.

[Eyepop]

Bleary, on 27 May 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

People shaved a ton or two off their builds so they could fill those random 2-3 ballistic mounts with machine guns. They filled a limited but real role.

Wait, you mean that people didn't just boat as much laser vomit as possible? Geez, it's almost like decent cheap ballistics were good for the game

[Kassatsu]

Eyepop, on 27 May 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

The reason that I'm not so quick to campaign for flamers is that the benefit of working, viable MGs is so much greater. We already have 1-ton energy weapons that can be taken instead. But right now, ballistic slots on lights are pretty much worthless.

The MG state is so bad, that people actually take them off of the Pirate's Bane because the amount that they reduce your visibility with muzzle flashes reduces your damage more than having two more guns increases it.

My Adder says flamers need some love. Or some heavy CT and/or head quirks for flamers, or JUST UNLOCK THE HARDPOINT ALREADY JESUS

bad arcade kitty, on 27 May 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

well, if you are cored, mgs will kill you faster than lasers

I doubt that. I have never feared a machine gun toting mech when I had an exposed side torso on a mech with an XL, in fact that's one of the few mechs I would actively engage in a near-dead state. Except a 4MG/2LBX10 jagermech with a pair of large pulse lasers, but that hardly counts.

A laser boat or something with any type of AC above a 2? Turn the other way and get the hell out, maybe take a few cheap shots between potential death volleys.

Edited by Kassatsu, 27 May 2015 - 08:08 PM.

[Khobai]

I personally think machine gun damage should stay where its at. And instead machine guns should get a bigger crit bonus.

Machine guns should be relatively ineffective against armor but should be good at critting and damaging internal structure. Same goes for LBX... I think LBX should crit like crazy and tear apart internal structure.

I think it makes machine guns/LBX much more interesting weapons if you have to fire them into locations that dont have armor. Otherwise theyre just like every other weapon... and its boring if all weapons are the same.

Although for that to work it would probably require an internal structure buff across the board... Because right now crit-seeking is not really a desireable weapon archetype. Mechs have so little internal structure that the entire location gets destroyed before the weapons/equipment in the location get critted. Increasing internal structure would make weapons that crit more valuable.

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2015 - 12:05 AM.

[Eyepop]

Khobai, on 27 May 2015 - 11:56 PM, said:

I personally think machine gun damage should stay where its at. And instead machine guns should get a bigger crit bonus.

Machine guns should be relatively ineffective against armor but should be good at critting and damaging internal structure. Same goes for LBX... I think LBX should crit like crazy and tear apart internal structure.

I think it makes machine guns/LBX much more interesting weapons if you have to fire them into locations that dont have armor. Otherwise theyre just like every other weapon... and its boring if all weapons are the same.

Although for that to work it would probably require an internal structure buff across the board... Because right now crit-seeking is not really a desireable weapon archetype. Mechs have so little internal structure that the entire location gets destroyed before the weapons/equipment in the location get critted. Increasing internal structure would make weapons that crit more valuable.

The problem with making the MGs only crit-seeking weapons is that they also have a CoF. Sure, if your enemy has all his armor stripped from all of his hitboxes, then yes, crit-seeking with a CoF is just fine. But what if it's only one of the side torsos? Then, even if you're aiming absolutely pro-grade perfect, you're still going to be wasting tons of your shot ineffectively plinking at arm and CT armor.

Kassatsu, on 27 May 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

My Adder says flamers need some love. Or some heavy CT and/or head quirks for flamers, or JUST UNLOCK THE HARDPOINT ALREADY JESUS

They're working on that, though. They're unlocking the Adder hardpoint.

[Jetfire]

Flamers and MG's need a buff. For their short range they should be viable.

1 DPS MG's
Flamers that damage internals through armor on mechs that are overheated.

[Mercules]

Ragtag soldier, on 27 May 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

a burst (of something around ten rounds) of the armor piercing rounds to the same spot do about as much damage as a single shell from a class two autocannon. it's an anti-infantry weapon that does middling damage to armor if pressed. they're designed to cut down a significant amount of standard infantry without forcing the mech to turn more valuable weapons to the task.

As pointed out, Autocannons are burst fire weapons as well.

Yes, the MGs in TT do just as much damage as an AC/2 every round. In MWO they don't even come close. An AC/2 is about 350% more effective and there is no reason for that.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Flamers being the perfect companion to MG's, all they need is that stupid multiplier buildup gone and they're instantly useful again.

When 1 single flamer firing can put your own mech into shutdown and not the enemy.. something is fundamentally wrong right there.

Edited by Mister D, 28 May 2015 - 06:12 AM.