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Can We Please Up The Tonnage To 39 Of Light Mechs


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#1 Blue Pheonix

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 04:49 PM

This one is really for the game developers.

Can we please up the tonnage of light mechs to 39 tons and a few more slots? Currently the max tonnage is 35. At least up the tonnage a few more tons.

I enjoy the challenge of playing a light mech. It is arguably the hardest (and most frustrating) mech type to play. While I consider myself a decent player, I believe the lights are simply too fragile offensively and defensively at this point. I'm not expecting a light to be a tank but I am tired of being one shot alpha striked. I am tired of not even being able to scout effectively because as soon as I am spotted, unless I am close to teammates, it is likely over for me. I am tired of often not even being able to have a close match with any mech one on one regardless if I am a more skilled pilot then them. Yes, I have had my wins in this situation but it is overwhelmingly one sided, regardless of the mech size/type.

I play the Jenners a lot
- the Oxide regularly runs out of ammo (SRM). Once that happens its over. This affects me offensively and defensively.
- On all the Jenners, I have run out of AMS ammo multiple times now so I am limited defensively.
- Multiple times now, I have been one shot alpha striked, on all the Jenner's even when moving at times. Especially if I forge ahead just a bit (not even that far) to scout.
-I find without ECM, a light, such as a Jenner makes a poor survivable scout.
-Obviously a light does little damage compared to heavier mechs.
- I find that with the armor maxed out on the Jenner's, and the weapons maxed, I have to settle for a smaller engine, making my light often slower then the mediums (and heavier). Not to mention single heat sinks because of the lack of slots. This makes survivability of a light very low. Too low in my opinion. I am often not fast enough for speed to get me out of a sticky situation, neither will armor. Obviously I wont intimidate much with my weapons/DPS with the lights, unless I risk going in very close with the Oxide and its low armor, especially with managing heat with single heat sinks (to have enough slots). This leaves a lot to be desired with the lights.

So if it is difficult to scout, you often cant stand up against any heavier "healthy" mech toe to toe (or at least give them a strong run) even with strategy, you have to stay with the group and be reluctant to even poke your head out, you can't really finish a match, you are not really a game changer at the end, you do very little damage (comparatively), and you often end your game early on the match (especially with poor team play) it makes playing a light very frustrating. Too frustrating. More then it reasonably has to be.

With a higher tonnage (and a few extra slots), I could at least add more SRM and AMS ammo and add at least a few points of armor to at least last a little longer. Or in the place of more armor a few engine sizes bigger for speed.

I am not asking for lights to carry heavier weapons and do a ton more damage. I am not asking for the light to be a tank. I am just saying that it would be nice to be able to survive a bit longer, be a more effective scout and harasser until the bigger guys get there. Yes, continuing to improve my skills will help. However, I have noticed that given the current condition with the lights, there is only really so much better skill can do. Upping the tonnage a few for the lights would not overpower them and it would get them to at least be reasonably more enjoyable to play. You would still probably need the most skill out of all the types to play it, it would just make the experience reasonably more enjoyable.

There is a reason why the "light" mech always has the lowest wait time and usually by a large margin. If you look at the other types, you will see that the wait times are much closer together. That alone must say something.

Edited by Blue Pheonix, 29 June 2015 - 05:11 PM.


#2 Alan Davion

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 04:51 PM

Battletech tonnage rules only work on multiples of 5. No odd numbers.

It's always been that way, and always will be.

#3 Bleary

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:05 PM

Always run double heat sinks and always keep your engine size at or near max. Consider dropping AMS; LRMs have a hard time catching lights anyway. Try not to run straight toward or away enemy 'Mechs who are looking in your direction, try to stay at max speed by default, and be very cautious about scouting away from the group. Often it isn't really necessary to do so.

Light 'Mechs aren't that hard to pilot. They're just different. Driving one takes some getting used to. I score and survive more reliably in lights than I do mediums or assaults.

Edited by Bleary, 29 June 2015 - 05:05 PM.


#4 El Bandito

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:05 PM

Similar to my take on the issue. My reason is to balance the queue numbers better.

http://mwomercs.com/...e-based-system/

Edited by El Bandito, 29 June 2015 - 05:06 PM.


#5 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:06 PM

Lol, so go the extra 1t and drive a 40t medium :D

#6 Novakaine

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:06 PM

This is Battletech.
Learn some lore :D

#7 Bleary

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:11 PM

If you want a light 'Mech to feel and drive like a light 'Mech, the light queue will always be unbalanced. They don't have a lot of armor, they can't mount any of the cool guns. They're more about piloting than shooting. And most people are always going to have more fun shooting big guns.

Only real way to ameliorate that would be to give scouting and sneaking a bigger -and more fun- role outside of direct combat. But MWO is never going to be that game. As it stands, let's just be thankful PGI actually managed to make lights a viable class.

Edited by Bleary, 29 June 2015 - 05:20 PM.


#8 Blue Pheonix

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:18 PM

Thanks for the tips Bleary. Anyone else recommend ditching the AMS? I see they don't really do much anyway for myself. I just always thought that it really helps out the team more then myself.

Edited by Blue Pheonix, 29 June 2015 - 05:19 PM.


#9 Tennex

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:20 PM

Thats not how this game works brother. Mechs are from battletech. And they already have set tonnages

#10 Alan Davion

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:21 PM

I have to agree.

Using AMS on a light is taking up 2 tons that could be used for anything else. .5 for the AMS itself, .5 for the CASE, and at minimum 1 ton of ammo.

That could be an extra two heatsinks, or two tons of ammo for the SRMs.

#11 Bleary

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:22 PM

View PostBlue Pheonix, on 29 June 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

Thanks for the tips Bleary. Anyone else recommend ditching the AMS? I see they don't really do much anyway for myself. I just always thought that it really helps out the team more then myself.

Apologies if you already knew all that. As this was your first post in the forum, I wasn't sure how long you've been playing.

AMS is a nice little support for the rest of the group, but I don't think most Jenner builds can really afford the tonnage.

#12 FupDup

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:23 PM

View PostAlan Davion, on 29 June 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

I have to agree.

Using AMS on a light is taking up 2 tons that could be used for anything else. .5 for the AMS itself, .5 for the CASE, and at minimum 1 ton of ammo.

That could be an extra two heatsinks, or two tons of ammo for the SRMs.

You don't need CASE for ammo, you can put the ammo somewhere that it won't likely be hit (i.e. head).

Even if it does get hit, you're still dead anyways. CASE doesn't help IS XL engines against ammo explosions, because you still lose the side torso anyways (the damage just doesn't transfer to the CT, but you're still dead from the ST loss).

Edited by FupDup, 29 June 2015 - 05:25 PM.


#13 Blue Pheonix

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:23 PM

Alan, Nova and Tennex. Couldn't we deviate from lore just a smidge? :P

#14 Wildstreak

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:59 PM

Paraphrased from the Holy Grail

Quote

...And FASA raised the tonnage rules up on high, saying, "O LORD, bless this Thy tonnage rules that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the LORD did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu... [At this point, the friar is urged by Brother Maynard to "skip a bit, brother"]... And the LORD spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Common Sense, then shalt thou count tonnage difference by five, no more, no less. Five shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be five. Six shalt thou not count, neither count thou four, excepting that thou then proceed to five. Seven is right out. Once the number five, being the fifth number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy tonnage rules of Battletech towards thy foe, who being naughty with logic in My sight, shall snuff it."


#15 XxXAbsolutZeroXxX

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 06:15 PM

Just use a 40 ton cicada.

When are we getting the cicada variant that can mount jump jets? Soon, I would guess.

#16 ScarecrowES

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 06:21 PM

View PostBlue Pheonix, on 29 June 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Snip


Is this a troll topic? What kind of weapons could you possibly take on a Jenner that would drop you below a 280 engine and 1.2 heat management? If your Jenner is going the same speed as mediums, youve built it VERY wrong and deserve to get wrecked over and over. And over.

#17 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 06:27 PM

Well, factoring in the quirks and mech tree efficiencies, the 35 tonners could sorta be there already.

I'd like to either change how missiles work or bump up ammo counts for all ammo types equally (SRMs have no boost right now).

With the first idea, it'll be missiles will follow what you aim at until they hit or reach max range. With Artemis, TAG and NARC then modifying how fast the missiles adjust to the crosshair / reticle, and ECM countering that response.

Than Streak locks would be only to save ammo. LRMs could then explore a different system for firing missiles indirectly when the shooter can't see the target, maybe a fire and forget system that uses the streak bone targeting.


Otherwise, at least bump SRM ammo to 120 missiles from 100 for 240 damage per ton.




And if you are willing to go slower try 6.5 tons of ammo at least.
I have something close to this build on mine right now. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...29d8034006fe939

It's still a nice little ninja mech that needs to wait early in the match and than tear stuff up mid to late match.

#18 ScarecrowES

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 06:33 PM

View PostPraetor Knight, on 29 June 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

Well, factoring in the quirks and mech tree efficiencies, the 35 tonners could sorta be there already.

I'd like to either change how missiles work or bump up ammo counts for all ammo types equally (SRMs have no boost right now).

With the first idea, it'll be missiles will follow what you aim at until they hit or reach max range. With Artemis, TAG and NARC then modifying how fast the missiles adjust to the crosshair / reticle, and ECM countering that response.

Than Streak locks would be only to save ammo. LRMs could then explore a different system for firing missiles indirectly when the shooter can't see the target, maybe a fire and forget system that uses the streak bone targeting.


Otherwise, at least bump SRM ammo to 120 missiles from 100 for 240 damage per ton.




And if you are willing to go slower try 6.5 tons of ammo at least.
I have something close to this build on mine right now. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...29d8034006fe939

It's still a nice little ninja mech that needs to wait early in the match and than tear stuff up mid to late match.


Drop heatsink... possibly 1/2 ton ammo... upgrade engine. relocate ammo to legs, head, arms. Shave leg armor if needed for engine upgrade 1/2 ton. Youre welcome.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 29 June 2015 - 06:36 PM.


#19 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 06:35 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 29 June 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

Drop heatsink... possibly 1/2 ton ammo... upgrade engine. Youre welcome.


Thank you, sure can be done.

Using house rules for engine ratings though. B)

#20 Narcissistic Martyr

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 08:01 PM

Umm... I think the problem is the meat rather than the metal. That's ok, lights have a high skill floor (which you're above IMO) and a stupendously high skill ceiling (which I and most other light pilots will never reach).

I'm gonna give you some general non ECM light and scouting tips. Plus jenner tips, and I'll include my own super secret builds to use. All for the low low price of free.

General Non-ECM Light mech tips

Light mechs aren’t supposed to win even brawls with undamaged heavy and assault mechs. Yes it happens sometimes, especially if you can get behind them and stay there. In general though, you are a scalpel not a sledgehammer. Something weak? Finish him. Enemy has LRM support not near the lines? Hunt it down.

Don’t get me wrong, a clever light mech, using terrain and jump jets can absolutely do 400+ damage a round and when the last mech standing against a field of damaged goliaths can come out on top. In general though, lights aren’t your team’s primary damage dealers. A good light pilot helps the team win by carefully scouting and relaying information (VOIP is essential)

Scouting

Feel free to use your high mounted weapons and cockpit and ridge hump if you need to shoot someone over a ridge or need to see if the coast is clear.

If you don’t know where they are stopping and using your seismic helps, just don't do it when they can see you.

But for the love of Jenner don't pop over a ridge to their side and expect to not get shot. Sure you'll get away with it sometimes, hell I've gotten to the point where I can tell what ballistics the enemy has from the sounds they make hitting the ground all around me, but the damage you do take will take the last few seconds you need to kill an enemy away from you.

Doing Damage
If they’re bigger than a medium mech and not horribly damaged and they’ve noticed you if you do more than pop a quick alpha and GTFO, you’re going to take unnecessary damage which will get you killed later.
Be patient. At the beginning of the match, your job is to peek over ridges and figure out which of the 2-3 most used paths they’re taking. Your secondary priority depends on the map. On Alpine for instance, you know damn well where they’re going, and that the assault lance is gonna take a while to waddle there. Guard the assaults when they get left behind or a light lance can and will eat them up.

Once the big guys engage, keep an eye out for enemy flanking maneuvers, opportunities to get around behind their line without getting shot up, and damaged enemies. 4-6 ML or a bunch of SRMs will finish off a wounded target, take off an arm, leg, or ST making the enemy less of a threat. If you can’t do these things, play your light like a medium, advance with the brawlers, shoot their targets, etc. Lights tend to get ignored when there’s a King Crab or Dire Wolf killing you.

If you sneak behind an enemy who is taking fire from your allies, you have to decide, torso or legs. If you want them to turn to face you, torso because people watch their rear armor since it’s usually so thin. If you don’t want to get noticed, shoot the legs, they have one hit box so they can’t immediately see that the damage comes from behind them.

Circle strafing. In general? Don’t. It does work better in the oxide or hugin though because you don’t have to hold your mouse on target for the beam duration. It also can work against lone dire whales, but chances are good you’ll get squished before you do serious damage. Instead, do hit and run tactics.

Other

Running away. If they aren’t lights, cicadas or ice ferrets, run in a serpentine fashion. It’s a lot harder to hit a target moving in 2 dimensions than in 1, even better, using terrain variances and speed changes to make your movement even more unpredictable.

Be the squirrel. Sometimes near the beginning of the match or after you’ve flanked them you’ll get noticed and people will start trying to kill you. Embrace it. Pull as many enemies off as you can. Then run away from the battle line. If 1 or 2 non-light mechs follow and it’s a fairly close match congratulations you just won the game for your team. Yes you’re likely going to die, but it doesn’t matter if you took several heavies or assaults out of the main fight.

Dealing with streaks. If you pop around a corner and boom streak crow, you have 3 choices. Go back the way you came, stop and head shot them (which requires 30 damage in lasers or AC to work), or push your foot down harder and blow past them before they can get a lock. If their entire team isn’t behind them, you can usually get away and only take 1 streak barrage. Turning around is a good choice too if you’re close to cover, if not, CHARGE.

Got legged? You’re dead. Take half a second and aim at their face if they stop to aim at you. You won’t believe how many people strip their head armor down to 6 points (just enough to stop an AC20) allowing you to kill them. It won’t work 90% of the time but you’re doing CT damage in that case which helps the team.

Coming to terms with death. You’re going to get one shot by dual gauss and dual AC20 from time to time. It happens, just get the cursing out of your system and drop in another mech. PGI could fix this by removing pin point conversion but I’ve been asking for that since closed beta and we’re not gonna get it.

Jenner Specific Tips

On a Jenner, always run max or near max engine (oxide excepted) you're gonna need the extra internal engine heat sinks and the speed lets you get away from quick mediums and heavies. Frankly the XL300 is one of the few advantages the jenner has over the firestarter (besides being freaking awesome) (P.S. Use double heat sinks on every single mech, except AC20 ravens and 3AC5 Shadow Hawk 2H builds)

You can strip half a ton of armor off the arms of any jenner build. Yes you’ll lose them to Dual Gauss, but they both have to hit that small area and even then you still have half or more of your fire power. So, if the extra half ton of ammo, heat sinks, or weapons makes you better go for it. If you don’t like it, change it back.

While you can reduce your head armor, since it’s in the middle of the CT it does get hit fairly frequently. Sometimes you get lucky and it takes an AC20, PPC, or Gauss round instead of your CT.

Jump jets. 1 or 2 will let you skate up most things and unless you’ve build an ERLL sniper thing you won’t need the height the extra jets provide compared to extra armor, heatsinks, etc. However, if you want to get on top of the outer wall in HPG, you need 3-5 JJ. Personally, I don’t snipe so that isn’t important to me.

AMS… not needed on light mechs. You can either out run the missiles or get to cover 95% of the time. If you do take it, take only half a ton of AMS ammo and manually toggle the AMS off and on.

Jenner Builds

Oxide

For the oxide, run a slower engine, (Narcissitic Martyr's Oxide that I used in the hero event last month [top 50 finish not that that is much of an accomplishment]) and despite the loss in DPS using 3x ASRM4 can be worth it since you don't have to get right next to someone to splat them. You have 337m of range, why not use it? It's not like every map is brawler friendly. Plus SRM hit reg for more than 12 SRMs is atrocious atm in my opinion so I’m sticking with artemis at least until the july 7 patch comes out. Granted most folks disagree with me, but everyone plays a bit differently so I suggest you try out 3ASRM4 instead of the standard 4xSRM4.

JR7-K

Narcissistic Martyr's JR7-K Look, it has MPL to abuse the quirk. That’s… about all there is to the JR7 K.

JR7-F

I’m of the opinion that there are 2 builds for this chassis. 6xML or 6x SPL. These days the 30 damage at range is just better since lights don’t’ fight lights as much as they used to. Plus the firestarter does 8 SPL with super quirks so you’re gonna lose the SPL fight anyways.

Narcisisstic Martyr's JR7-F

JR7-D

This one is interesting. 4 real choices, 2x SRM4, 2XSSRM2+BAP (less damage but able to cancel an ECM mech so LRMs can rain down), 2xLRM5 (treat them like mid range streaks and use to scare people into taking cover), and NARC to again let LRMs rain down on ECM mech’s heads. Personally I use them all but mostly SRM4s and SSRM2+BAP.

Narcisisstic Martyr's JR7-D

You can run an XL295 or one less DHS for extra ammo if you like on this one, but personally I use the 2xSRM4 to exploit armor breaches or to do a large amount of burst damage to rear armor. As such I don’t miss the ammo too much.

Anyways, hope this helps out a bit.

Edited by Narcissistic Martyr, 29 June 2015 - 08:05 PM.






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