76 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Heffay, on 08 July 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

Sorry, but you don't have polls.

Sorry, but there ARE polls. And they're pretty clear, too. The majority of the community overwhelmingly would like to play Star Citizen with a joystick. You can't bury your head in this one, Heffay. The polls exist. The results are clear. If you want to see for yourself, go look.

Saying, "99% of the community wants to use a mouse" is a fabricated, fantasy number that you are creating. My figure is pretty darned close to accurate. The number is somewhere between 63 - 67% or so. 99% wanting to use a mouse is just not so.

Star Citizen is not complicated. You simply need one hand attached to an arm attached to your body with fingers to click the buttons to win. You point. You click. You win.

It is as complicated as a tablet flash game right now. This is commonly accepted.

Controller agnostic means agnostic. It doesn't mean, "Oh well, let's pick this and throw this other one in the trash." Space sims have always traditionally been played with joysticks.

The only one making hype here is yourself. Check the polls. Don't make stuff up. Don't try and defend mouse when it is clearly imbalanced. If you want Star Citizen to have a large community that plays the game, balancing input devices is for the good of everyone.

I'm sorry you can't handle Elite. Elite is a lot harder to fly compared with point click flash game Citizen. Elite is hard to fly no matter what controller you use. And that's fair. That's controller agnostic. That's what Chris Roberts promised and has yet to deliver.

[Heffay]

Well then, maybe you should start a #saveStarCitizen group? Maybe a Unite and Drop event so that CIG knows how serious you are about the controller issue? I've heard those kinds of things are SUPER EFFECTIVE at implementing change. You know, just like having a 1000 page forum post from the same 5-10 people is effective.

[MarineTech]

[Heffay]

MarineTech, on 08 July 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

It's like history repeating itself over and over again. Groundhog Day, forum version. People who make the same stupid mistakes repeatedly without understanding the basics of polling.

Some people never learn, even when given repeated opportunities.

[Mister Blastman]

Heffay, on 08 July 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

Well then, maybe you should start a #saveStarCitizen group? Maybe a Unite and Drop event so that CIG knows how serious you are about the controller issue? I've heard those kinds of things are SUPER EFFECTIVE at implementing change. You know, just like having a 1000 page forum post from the same 5-10 people is effective.

Oh I think CIG hears us loud and clear. It is all over the forums now. Thread after thread has people complaining about controller imbalances. It is getting to be reminiscent of the forums here at the height of the poptart fiasco.

They supposedly have "someone" looking into a few things. But, for the most part, are trying to sweep it all under the rug.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 08 July 2015 - 12:56 PM.

[Heffay]

Mister Blastman, on 08 July 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

Oh I think CIG hears us loud and clear. It is all over the forums now.

The same 5 people complaining incessantly about the same topic is not the same as "all over the forums."

I'd love to see a breakdown of the posts on the controller katamari. My guess is 90% of the posts come from 5 people.

[Mister Blastman]

Heffay, on 08 July 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

The same 5 people complaining incessantly about the same topic is not the same as "all over the forums."

I'd love to see a breakdown of the posts on the controller katamari. My guess is 90% of the posts come from 5 people.

Heh, funny you mention that. A mouse supporter did just that a couple of weeks ago. Turns out they only make up 15 - 20% of the posts. Nice try, though.

[Void Angel]

Wait, wait - so as many as one in five posts are from the same five people? I'm not involved with Star Citizen, so I don't have a dog in this fight... but despite the hyperbole in the post you quoted, doesn't that rather support the claim that your groundswell of public opinion is being driven by a small minority? And in any case, how do you know what proportion of the player base is involved in these posts?

[Mister Blastman]

Void Angel, on 08 July 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

Wait, wait - so as many as one in five posts are from the same five people? I'm not involved with Star Citizen, so I don't have a dog in this fight... but despite the hyperbole in the post you quoted, doesn't that rather support the claim that your groundswell of public opinion is being driven by a small minority? And in any case, how do you know what proportion of the player base is involved in these posts?

Actually it isn't the same five people. It is about fifty. Look, it isn't hyperbole that Star Citizen is broken. It IS broken. This is fact.

Play Arena Commander. See how stupid easy it is to win with the mouse. Then try it with a joystick. Come back here and share your thoughts.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 08 July 2015 - 05:55 PM.

[Void Angel]

Why would I do that? Aside from my laughing at the idea that you can assign me homework, I don't have to download a game I've never played to demonstrate that a zero-order controller will outperform a first-order. We had that contest back when, with Halo. But how does Star Citizen's failure/refusal to act as the Handicapper General for controllers translate to the entire game being broken?

You still don't know what proportion of the (hypothetical, at this point?) player base is represented by any of that forum activity.

[MechB Kotare]

Im mouse wh0r3, but if SC ship piloting was adapted more to joystick rather than mouse (ship piloting, not planned FPS aspects of game) i sure wouldnt mind buying one.

Im done funding unfinished games though, and some ship prices are just too ridiculous. (Kinda like Clan packages released by PeeGeeI).

One theory suggests, that Chris Roberts wont stop in trying to implement all his visions and dreams for space sim, which he had all this time, and the game's developement will last for years, if not decades. Sure, lot of people paid, but vision of "perfect" space Sim MMo Starlancer/Wingcommander/Freelancer/Freespace style, might give them motivation to wait all the time he needs, anticipating something that might really dissapoint them when final stage of product arrives.

I'm patient.

Question though:

As im not really following RSI forums, i dont have any general overview about things like planned payment. Is it gonna be monthly subscription (EVEo, SWToR, WoW...), Pay to play (TESO, GW2...) or F2P with only an ingame content to buy (MWo, PlanetS2, Dota...)?

Edited by MechB Kotare, 08 July 2015 - 06:09 PM.

[Heffay]

MechB Kotare, on 08 July 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

Question though:

As im not really following RSI forums, i dont have any general overview about things like planned payment. Is it gonna be monthly subscription (EVEo, SWToR, WoW...), Pay to play (TESO, GW2...) or F2P with only an ingame content to buy (MWo, PlanetS2, Dota...)?

It's going to be pay to play, with an optional subscription model.

What a subscription will get you is yet to be determined, but that only matters to public universe type people. The people looking for a single player game should be just fine without it.

[Mister Blastman]

Void Angel, on 08 July 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

Why would I do that? Aside from my laughing at the idea that you can assign me homework, I don't have to download a game I've never played to demonstrate that a zero-order controller will outperform a first-order. We had that contest back when, with Halo. But how does Star Citizen's failure/refusal to act as the Handicapper General for controllers translate to the entire game being broken?

I'm laughing at you claiming it is hyperbole when you aren't even willing to try it out yourself. Until you do you are in no position to claim hyperbole or anything of the sorts.

Star Citizen is not Halo. Star Citizen is a space combat game like Wing Commander. It is claimed to be the successor of Wing Commander. Yet it plays NOTHING LIKE Wing Commander. It is simple mouse point click gimbal weapon win. It's stupid. They've really screwed up.

[MechB Kotare]

Cheers Heffay. Kinda like what i expected.

[Mister Blastman]

Heffay, on 08 July 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

It's going to be pay to play, with an optional subscription model.

What a subscription will get you is yet to be determined, but that only matters to public universe type people. The people looking for a single player game should be just fine without it.

Chris said it was never going to be pay to play (subscription-wise), but single purchase, play all you want. Unless /that/ was a lie, too...

[Void Angel]

Mister Blastman, on 08 July 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

I'm laughing at you claiming it is hyperbole when you aren't even willing to try it out yourself. Until you do you are in no position to claim hyperbole or anything of the sorts.

Star Citizen is not Halo. Star Citizen is a space combat game like Wing Commander. It is claimed to be the successor of Wing Commander. Yet it plays NOTHING LIKE Wing Commander. It is simple mouse point click gimbal weapon win. It's stupid. They've really screwed up.

Not only have you failed to understand my point, you've misattributed my reference to hyberbole as referring to your own post - instead of the post you were quoting, as I actually said. Similarly, I never claimed Halo was Star Citizen or anything like that - I simply pointed out that a first-order joystick cannot ever compete with a zero-order controller like a mouse unless the mouse has been deliberately neutered. This has to do with engineering concepts that have nothing to do with the shooter genre in question - no testing is required to support an easily established fact.

If you want to argue about the quality of gameplay, then I have nothing to offer on the subject - it's not a game I play. However, the subject I can treat is the one you've ignored - your fallacious appeal to common knowledge based on your perception of forum activity and a faulty understanding of polling statistics.

[Mister Blastman]

Void Angel, on 08 July 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

Not only have you failed to understand my point, you've misattributed my reference to hyberbole as referring to your own post - instead of the post you were quoting, as I actually said. Similarly, I never claimed Halo was Star Citizen or anything like that - I simply pointed out that a first-order joystick cannot ever compete with a zero-order controller like a mouse unless the mouse has been deliberately neutered. This has to do with engineering concepts that have nothing to do with the shooter genre in question - no testing is required to support an easily established fact.

If you want to argue about the quality of gameplay, then I have nothing to offer on the subject - it's not a game I play. However, the subject I can treat is the one you've ignored - your fallacious appeal to common knowledge based on your perception of forum activity and a faulty understanding of polling statistics.

Are you kidding me? My life revolves around statistics. I have a pretty good idea how to read them. And there is simply one fact: While we don't know how many people partake in the forums versus those who do not (actually we have a pretty good idea given backers versus respondents), the slice polled was about 3000 individuals. Of those 3000, about 2000 stated they would like to use a joystick. Currently, about 2000+ use mouse because it is overpowered versus the joystick.

Yes, I mis-read your original post. But my groundswell of public opinion, as you said, isn't five players.

You should spend some time over at the Star Citizen forums before you form an opinion of the matter. There really are a lot of players who would like mouse to be brought in line so joysticks can be used competitively.

[Void Angel]

See, was that so hard? That was the answer you needed both to my question and the objection to another poster that I asked about. I'm gratified that you know more about polling and stats than your other posts let on - but you didn't demonstrate that until now. Lead with expertise; it makes for much better argument. Instead of writing you off as one of the perpetually dissatisfied, I now know that you at least have an argument. I think you might reasonably be asked to address whether or not that is a significant sample (based on the backer numbers,) but you have enlightened me - thank you, that was what I wanted to know.

As to your last two paragraphs, you seem to still be operating under the assumption that I'm taking a position in an argument I've already said I have no stake in. We all need to guard against reactionism in our forum posting.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 July 2015 - 07:54 PM.

[Heffay]

Mister Blastman, on 08 July 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

My life revolves around statistics. I have a pretty good idea how to read them.

If your life revolves around statistics and you think a forum poll of a self selected group of people provide even the most tenuous levels of accuracy, I can only conclude one thing about the quality of the statistics that you deal with.

Let me guess... you work for Fox Nation?

Mister Blastman, on 08 July 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

Chris said it was never going to be pay to play (subscription-wise), but single purchase, play all you want. Unless /that/ was a lie, too...

I didn't say it was a subscription to play. I said it was pay to play (i.e. you need to buy a game package), with an *optional* subscription.

I hope your statistical skills are better than your reading comprehension skills, but at this point I don't have a lot of faith in either.

[Mister Blastman]

Heffay, on 08 July 2015 - 08:25 PM, said:

Let me guess... you work for Fox Nation?

Ah your true colors come out.

Quote

I didn't say it was a subscription to play. I said it was pay to play (i.e. you need to buy a game package), with an *optional* subscription.

I hope your statistical skills are better than your reading comprehension skills, but at this point I don't have a lot of faith in either.

Reading comprehension? Perhaps you should work on your own. You said, and I quote, "optional subscription model."

Chris Roberts adamantly said when he marketed the game there would be no subscription model. I'm sorry you had trouble comprehending my reply.