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Powerbomb256's Big Ol' Laser Comparison

Balance Gameplay Weapons

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#1 Powerbomb256

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 11:04 AM

Disclaimer to all you BT/Clan Purists: READ THIS FIRST! If you actually care about game balance, feel free to ignore. This is a Mechwarrior BASED game, but it does not strictly follow lore, nor is it in any way, shape, or form required to. As the game stands right now, and with no apparent plans by PGI to change this, the game is balanced on a 1 to 1 formula. That means 1 Clan mech is equal to 1 IS mech in terms of game balance. This means that while Clan mech may do more damage and have more range, the must have equally large downsides to compensate.

Anyway, onto the actual numbers. Spreadsheet can be found Here and I will Provide formula's and calculations if asked (Or just look at the spreadsheet, most of it is there).

Ranges: Almost all Clan lasers have 50% more range than their IS counterparts. This was surprisingly even across the board, with only Clan Large Lasers/Pulse being outside this range (64%)

Damage per heat: A fairly important stat, this describes how much heat you generate per damage dealt. Clan small lasers are top performers here, actually having the same or better damage per heat than their IS counterparts. The Clan ER Medium is fairly close to the IS medium, and the rest hover slightly below that.

Edit: Since quirks have come up as a major balance point, I have averaged all energy quirks on IS chassis (172 total mechs). I will upload a quirked comparison soon, but for now allow me to post the average quirks.

Laser Duration Average: -8.75%
Energy Cooldown Average: -8.5%
Energy Heat Generation Average: -7.7%
Energy Range Average: +8.3%


Damage per Tick: For the purposes of this discussion, a tick is defined as the damage a laser will do if held on a component for 1/10 of 1 second. The Clan small and medium lasers actually do more damage per tick that their IS counterparts. This means that if you hold a IS and Clan medium laser onto a component for the same amount of time, the Clan laser will still do more damage. The Clan small pulse is identical to the IS small pulse here, and the rest of the clan lasers all to less damage per tick than their IS counterparts, with the CLPL being the worst.

Damage Per ton: No surprise here that clan have IS beat in every way. All clan lasers to at least 30% more damage per ton, with clan smalls doing a staggering 66% more damage per ton.

Comparisons: CERSL to Medium Laser. These two weapons are actually very similar in terms of range, with the CERSL having a full 75% of the range of a medium laser, very good for half the weight. They do exactly the same damage per ton, though the CERSL takes 1 more tick to do its damage fully. However, the Clan ERSL generates 1 less heat than the medium, and weighs 50% less, making it a somewhat better weapon.

Comparisons: CERML to Large Laser. Not quite as similar as the previous two were, the CERML is still quite close to the LL in terms of performance. It deals nearly 80% of the LL's damage, though an extra 0.15 seconds hurt its burn time. The IS LL also has it beat in damage per heat, though this is much closer. Both have nearly identical range profiles, with the CERML having 10% less range. Where the CERML really shows its power is in its weight, weighing a staggering 4 tons less than the LL, a mere 20% of its total weight. If you feel like throwing ghost heat into the equation, it can also fire twice as many lasers without ghost heat.

Explanations of Theoretical Weapons: I tried to remove the ER aspect of clan lasers, to get a little more accurate comparison of weapons. Since the IS ERLL has 25% more range and 25% more duration than the LL, I assumed that 1% range = 1% duration. I also removed 1 heat for becoming an standard laser. (I think I may have gotten the burn times a little off though. Double-checking would be nice).

Edit; Since so may people complained about quirks, I averaged IS quirks across all chassis (172 total) and added the results to a new spreadsheet here. For those who don't want to or cant look, Most IS laser quirks (Range,Cooldown,Duration,Heatgen) are at about 8% for all mechs.

Edited by Powerbomb256, 09 July 2015 - 02:30 PM.


#2 Malcolm Vordermark

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 11:33 AM

While interesting I think this is a comparison between the weapons themselves. I would be more interested in a comparison between the weapons after quirks.

#3 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 11:36 AM

View PostRouken, on 09 July 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

While interesting I think this is a comparison between the weapons themselves. I would be more interested in a comparison between the weapons after quirks.


Which quirks?

Thunderbolt quirks? How bout Thunderbolt hero quirks? Grasshopper quirks? Cataphract 3D quirks? Highlander quirks? Victor quirks?

#4 Powerbomb256

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 11:38 AM

View PostRouken, on 09 July 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

While interesting I think this is a comparison between the weapons themselves. I would be more interested in a comparison between the weapons after quirks.

As much as quirks have helped some of the IS mechs (QKD,WVR,etc), it has made others into the meta (TDR-5SS, im looking at you). Additionally, there are so many different varations of quirks it would be almost impossible to collate them into a readable format. But yes, I do understand quirks have made some IS weapons better, but for now I just want a baseline comparison

#5 Revis Volek

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 11:48 AM

Well this is a lot of stuff we already knew....nice job. But what is the point of this thread? Just to talk about them? Are you griping?

Nerf Clams?


I just dont understand WHY this is here....and this has been done like 300 times. Not to rain on your parade but if you had scrolled down some in ANY of the forums you would find 2 or 3 threads where someone already did this.

BTW they are in the midst of redoing balance as we speak so you are a little late on this. You may have to re do this all in the next few weeks FYI.

#6 Malcolm Vordermark

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 11:53 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 09 July 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:


Which quirks?

Thunderbolt quirks? How bout Thunderbolt hero quirks? Grasshopper quirks? Cataphract 3D quirks? Highlander quirks? Victor quirks?


Which ever makes the most sense. For example, a medium pulse laser on a Thunderbolt is much different than the base stats for the medium pulse, and on the field most of them are going to be found on Thunderbolts.

#7 Necromantion

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 11:57 AM

This post is just another one dimensional perspective post. Throw in some heat reduction, cooldown and beam duration quirks and BOOM IS lasers easily out perform clan.

#8 Raggedyman

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 12:06 PM

View PostNecromantion, on 09 July 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

This post is just another one dimensional perspective post. Throw in some heat reduction, cooldown and beam duration quirks and BOOM IS lasers easily out perform clan.


If you believe the maths is that easy then why not go for it yourself? the OP has already done half the numbers for it, so you should be able to have it done in no time ^_^

#9 Yosharian

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 12:14 PM

B-b-b-but 2% of Inner Sphere mechs have good quirks, making this argument totally redundant guyz!!!!11

Edited by Yosharian, 09 July 2015 - 12:14 PM.


#10 Mcgral18

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 12:19 PM

View PostYosharian, on 09 July 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

B-b-b-but 2% of Inner Sphere mechs have good quirks, making this argument totally redundant guyz!!!!11


Redundant? No, a starting point.


I'm not going to map out 100 different robots with different quirks, but that's the only way to get an accurate depiction.


Use the outliers to prove a point, if you want. Using vanilla stats isn't exactly accurate, when things have double range, 3x RoF (not for lasers) nor do they account for weapon mounts (not entirely related, but overall balance needs to take them into consideration).

#11 Necromantion

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 12:32 PM

View PostRaggedyman, on 09 July 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:


If you believe the maths is that easy then why not go for it yourself? the OP has already done half the numbers for it, so you should be able to have it done in no time ^_^


I dont struggle with math by any means as I get paid to do it daily the thing is I dont care to invest the time to apply the quirks that some variants get to show why IS mechs excel at laser vomit over Clans. I also didnt say anything about the math, I said that he doesnt take into account quirks so this "study" is biased due to lack of application in the real world scenario. This only works if the mech being used is an IS without laser quirks.

Or how about I play the mechs on both factions I know are strong and best for my playstyle, map, unit setup and tactics and know that there are IS mechs that can stand toe to toe with Clans because of the quirks they have.

#12 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 12:51 PM

View PostNecromantion, on 09 July 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

This post is just another one dimensional perspective post. Throw in some heat reduction, cooldown and beam duration quirks and BOOM IS lasers easily out perform clan.


I would say it gives them a DPS edge, not necessarily out-perform.

We can argue quirks and numbers all day. Has anyone actually tested this?? I know Adiuvo has mentioned that EmP has tested (for hours) the whole TDR-5SS vs Timber Wolf thing and they concluded the Timber was better. Has anyone else done the same? Would be interesting to compare results/rationales.

If there is this much dissention over this topic can't we just all agree that balance between the top IS vs top Clan is actually not terrible?

#13 Malcolm Vordermark

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 12:59 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 09 July 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:



I'm not going to map out 100 different robots with different quirks, but that's the only way to get an accurate depiction.




Expressing it as a range would probably be best. With the lower bound being the base weapon (as I don't believe any IS mechs have negative quirks) and the upper bound being the weapon on whatever mech has quirks that greatly benefit the weapon.

#14 Necromantion

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 01:01 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 09 July 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


I would say it gives them a DPS edge, not necessarily out-perform.

We can argue quirks and numbers all day. Has anyone actually tested this?? I know Adiuvo has mentioned that EmP has tested (for hours) the whole TDR-5SS vs Timber Wolf thing and they concluded the Timber was better. Has anyone else done the same? Would be interesting to compare results/rationales.

If there is this much dissention over this topic can't we just all agree that balance between the top IS vs top Clan is actually not terrible?


Indeed their better heat management would be ideal.

Was this pre-TBR laser nerf?

I have been saying that clans and IS are balanced fine for weeks.

#15 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 01:12 PM

View PostNecromantion, on 09 July 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

Indeed their better heat management would be ideal.

Was this pre-TBR laser nerf?

I have been saying that clans and IS are balanced fine for weeks.


It was pre-nerf yes. And no I am not sure if the 8% duration, 8% cooldown would tip the scale the other way. But I will say that there is no IS heavy mech that would hold a candle to the 5SS. I like the jumping capability of the Grasshopper but every time I get out of the hopper and into the 5SS it feels like easy mode.

#16 Felicitatem Parco

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 01:21 PM

View PostNecromantion, on 09 July 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

This post is just another one dimensional perspective post. Throw in some heat reduction, cooldown and beam duration quirks and BOOM IS lasers easily out perform clan.


So, you are saying that Clan Lasers are, indeed, overall better than IS Lasers, but quirks are the only thing keeping IS Mechs alive?

It's nice to hear a Clanner admit that ClanTech is OP.

This thread is proof-positive that the Clans and IS are unbalanced, since "Balance" can only be achieved by quirks that don't even cover the majority of IS Mechs.

Please tell me how the quirks on my Centurion are supposed to make my Lasers and SRMs as potent as Clan weapons. Please tell me how the Clan ERML is equal to the IS ML after quirks? I have zero Mechs that give the IS LL a 80% weight reduction quitk, FYI.

What I am disappointed in most is that we have to confess that "balance" is also supposed to be achieved by limiting the Clanner s' ability to change their equipment. That actually comes across as rude to me, as I interperate that as the developers saying "here, you can have better equipment, but you can't do what you want with it."

#17 Powerbomb256

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 02:31 PM

View PostPowerbomb256, on 09 July 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

Edit; Since so may people complained about quirks, I averaged IS quirks across all chassis (172 total) and added the results to a new spreadsheet here. For those who don't want to or cant look, Most IS laser quirks (Range,Cooldown,Duration,Heatgen) are at about 8% for all mechs.


Added Average quirk spreadsheet to OP. Figured you guys might want it.

#18 Raggedyman

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 03:34 AM

View PostNecromantion, on 09 July 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

I dont struggle with math by any means as I get paid to do it daily the thing is I dont care to invest the time to apply the quirks that some variants get to show why IS mechs excel at laser vomit over Clans. I also didnt say anything about the math, I said that he doesnt take into account quirks so this "study" is biased due to lack of application in the real world scenario. This only works if the mech being used is an IS without laser quirks.

Or how about I play the mechs on both factions I know are strong and best for my playstyle, map, unit setup and tactics and know that there are IS mechs that can stand toe to toe with Clans because of the quirks they have.


So his mathematical analysis is wrong because of your anecdotal evidence and you don't need to back it up with figures because everyone has the same feels as you?

M'okay, whatever ^_^

#19 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 03:42 AM

Why try to make your Clan weapons worse? :huh:

#20 ShadowWolf Kell

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 03:52 AM

Honestly they should just give both sides the exact same equipment so people can move onto arguing which hardpoint locations are better and which ones need to be nerfed because they're higher than their own favorite mech.

OMG NERF CENTIES! THEY CAN ZOMBIE AND I CAN'T! IT'S OP!

HIS ATLAS HAS A SEXIER BUTT THAN MINE. NEEEEERF!

Edited by ShadowWolf Kell, 10 July 2015 - 03:54 AM.






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