27 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

I was reading about ECM changed coming, and to be that is something that is a long time coming.. personally i always thought ECM should just be for yourself, unless you are completely stationary.. aka once you get moving, it only effects you.. But that is not really the point of this post..


What has me worried is the BAP changed they were talking about. If the range gets reduced, this is going to be bad for LRM mechs. As it is, you need to be almost to the min range of LRM fire range.. you basically only have 60m to work with. If they cut this down to under the fire range,, LRM mechs and Bap will be completely pointless.

In range for Bap to work, you can't use the LRM's, and if you are at a point you can use LRM's then you can't use BAP. It really doesn't make any since at all to me. Many LRM mechs, have limited energy hard points, Some have none at all. So BAP is your only option.. It will basically cripple LRM mechs, that are already hard to play as it is, especially against better players..


Some options.. Add a tag to LRM launchers.. If you mount an LRM rack you get a tag.. (perhaps have it linked to tube count,, perhaps 10 or 15 tubes will unlock the Tag.. Maybe it could add a tag to your head, or a shoulder or something.

One kinda big draw back is the work involved, that would mean having to go through every single mech and a Tag spot which would take time.. Also, how would it be coded in the engine..


These to me would be easier to code, and a lot simpler to add.


Option 2, add BAP ECM cancel range to the Target Decay module. A simple yet effective fix. You are using a module slot, and that module already is meant for LRM's.. So it would make since to use it, as most LRM heavy mechs will most likely have that module already. It wouldn't make it over powered, and most mechs that just have a single 5 or 10, most likely isn't going to be packing a BAP anyway, as there is a very high% chance that they are just back up weapons.


option 3, Have LRM launchers add Range to the BAP cancel effect.. You could add range for every LRM rack added, how much range could depend on how many racks, and what size.. Obviously a Max range cap could also be added.


thoughts on these options? got a favorite? or add your own...

Edited by JC Daxion, 01 August 2015 - 06:49 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'd rather change how LRMs track

or allow Locks to be attainable and not have buffs from Arti, modules and so on, so ECM only prevents info and extra bonuses from goodies.

[El Bandito]

Give all mechs TAG slots, separate from the energy slots. And make TAG laser only visible in Heat Vision mode--except for the user.

Now that's just a start, but a good start, IMO.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 August 2015 - 06:58 PM.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

Just give all mechs TAG slots, separate from the energy slots. And make TAG laser only visible in Heat Vision mode.

Now that's just a start, but a good start, IMO.

I like that players have to sacrifice an energy slot for TAG. So no dumbing down please.

Also, TAG visibility should be subject to atmospheric conditions.

Edited by Mystere, 01 August 2015 - 07:02 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

JC Daxion, on 01 August 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

...LRM mechs and Bap will be completely pointless....

Streaks will be hurt the most with Active Probe (AP) range nerf and not LRM. I find that you generally don't need AP for LRM'ing.

[El Bandito]

Mystere, on 01 August 2015 - 06:58 PM, said:

I like that players have to sacrifice an energy slot for TAG. SO no dumbing down please.

Also, TAG visibility should be subject to atmospheric conditions.

This is not dumbing down. This is making sure that in the absence of a real ECM rework, LRMs are still somewhat useful. LRM users need the energy slot for back up weapons. And you will still sacrifice 1 ton and 1 slot for the TAG.

TAG should not be visible at all to the naked eye. By lore, it is infrared. It will help those poor spotters who paint themselves as a bulls eye with a bright red lance of beam traced directly back to them.

Quote

a multi-frequency laser emission diode which paints the target with an infrared laser beam for a smart weapon to track

Edited by El Bandito, 01 August 2015 - 09:54 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

BAP range should remain unaffected by any changes to ECM if you ask me.

ECM's coverage being dropped to 90 meters doesn't change the fact that they can still run around wherever they please pretty much without being spotted themselves.

I thought we finally settled on a BAP/CAP range that was acceptable and that worked well, and tbh its current range feels comfortable for both Scouts to be a threat to ECM carriers and for LRM boats to at least get 1 shot in at its near minimum distance.

If Paul changes the BAP/CAP range just because ECM is getting its coverage range dropped, I'm sorry but that is a really poor decision.

[Graugger]

BAP range was buffed recently cause of all the QQ about ECM and now you're complaining about it being taken back to old specs because they're nerfing ECM.

-.-

Really, you're complaining about LRM boats with NO back up weapons whatsoever getting the short stick for the BAP nerf. WTF are you doing with ONLY LRMs?

Bias is bias and in this complaint it's more obvious than a budget discussion in D.C.

Next I suppose you'll want TAG to have the same max range as gauss and to pass through non-metallic map objects stating that it should only reflect off metallic surfaces cause that's what mechs are made from. Better yet why don't we have a LRM system that tracks onto ECM sources so it's completely stupid to bring it to the battlefield! Yes, Paul do it! Make the missiles track ECM mechs when they don't have locks!

-.-

[JediPanther]

At the elo I'm in no one uses lrms in solo que because of all the ecm carrying mechs. When my tag laser,narc and sml on a light to be a spoter for two buddies trying to lrm boat and still can't get or maintain locks because of all the ecm we just quit. Droped the lrms like the dead useless weight they are and go back to lasers and acs. I stoping running my catapults except the K2 dual ac 20 build. That one still works.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Graugger, on 01 August 2015 - 08:42 PM, said:

stuff

Since this is in danger of being taken away from you, I hear these are very comfy and then you can sit down the next time you throw a fit.

[MechaBattler]

Couldn't they at least try ECM with a spread effect? Just have it be that ECM causes missiles to spread a lot more and increases locking time. And if LRMs become an issue. You could add a further spread penalty for non-direct LOS locks.

[Davegt27]

Quote

Better yet why don't we have a LRM system that tracks onto ECM sources so it's completely stupid to bring it to the battlefield! Yes, Paul do it! Make the missiles track ECM mechs when they don't have locks!

Often called home on jam (meaning home in on jamming source) and then there is acquisition on jam (which is lock on to jamming source)

I am not on one side or the other,I do know how weapons systems work

[Alistair Winter]

JC Daxion, on 01 August 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

What has me worried is the BAP changed they were talking about. If the range gets reduced, this is going to be bad for LRM mechs. As it is, you need to be almost to the min range of LRM fire range.. you basically only have 60m to work with. If they cut this down to under the fire range,, LRM mechs and Bap will be completely pointless.

I see what you're saying. It'll be interesting to see if the number of ECM mechs in the average match goes up or down, because now people can't depend on friendly ECM so much, due to the range. Today, people can run a Timber Wolf and know that they'll probably get covered by ECM in the match. But when they nerf ECM range, will as many people run Timber Wolves or will more people be switching to Hellbringers?

I don't think LRM boats will be too negatively effected though. TAG is so common.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 02 August 2015 - 04:23 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

There are 2 really horrible mechanics in this game:

1. ECM
2. Lock mechanic of LRMs and Streaks

That you need 1. to even remotely have something to keep 2. in check says it all.
As for 2.:Try playing a non-ecm light mech when your opponent has streaks. It is idiotic.


ECM should be re-worked to behave as in the TT. I wonder how PGI will implement new technologies considering that ECM combines 2-3 of them while weighing much less.

Let's be honest: ECM was implemented to curb LRM and maybe streaks. These mechanics are just terrible as well and need a change.
LRM could easily be "fire and forget" when an opponent gets TAGged for a certain amount of time or NARC and their flight speed when used as direct fire weapons buffed.


Edit:
I cannot see that the 90m range ECM changes does much. Maybe there will be less overlapping ECM but in general there are now much more ECM on the battlefield than before easily compensation the 90m reduction

As for streaks...honestly, no idea how lights can be spared this idiocy.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 02 August 2015 - 05:27 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Alistair Winter, on 02 August 2015 - 04:22 AM, said:

I see what you're saying. It'll be interesting to see if the number of ECM mechs in the average match goes up or down, because now people can't depend on friendly ECM so much, due to the range. Today, people can run a Timber Wolf and know that they'll probably get covered by ECM in the match. But when they nerf ECM range, will as many people run Timber Wolves or will more people be switching to Hellbringers?

I don't think LRM boats will be too negatively effected though. TAG is so common.

Bull. So much freaking bull.

I have not seen a TAG user in bloody months, I haven't seem LRM boats in about the same length of time. I've only seen one LRM Catapult last month, other than that I've only seen K2's/Jesters. There is so much freaking ECM running around right now that LRM/TAG are all but useless.

And a range reduction is NOT a nerf.

ECM will still be as powerful as it is now, the only, and I mean ONLY thing this range reduction will do is force people to bring even MORE ECM to the table, which is the exact opposite thing we need to have happen.

You think it's bad now? Trust me, it will get worse.

Davegt27, on 02 August 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

Often called home on jam (meaning home in on jamming source) and then there is acquisition on jam (which is lock on to jamming source)

I am not on one side or the other,I do know how weapons systems work

Now this is something that makes sense. ECM should have some sort of penalty to go with it, and people have been suggesting stuff like that in other threads.

Making ECM so that it either protects only you, at the expense of your team, or protects your team, at your expense is how it should be. This second option would be the closest to what you are suggesting Dave.

[Strum Wealh]

Graugger, on 01 August 2015 - 08:42 PM, said:

Better yet why don't we have a LRM system that tracks onto ECM sources so it's completely stupid to bring it to the battlefield! Yes, Paul do it! Make the missiles track ECM mechs when they don't have locks!

Davegt27, on 02 August 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

Often called home on jam (meaning home in on jamming source) and then there is acquisition on jam (which is lock on to jamming source)

Anti-Guardian "home on jam" capability comes with the introduction of "Anti-Radiation Missiles" (first deployed by the Clans in 3057, and by the IS in 3066).

A weaker and more-rudimentary (e.g. canonically ineffective against Guardian) - and timeline-current - form of the same concept exists in the form of the "Listen-Kill Missiles" available only to the IS.

Both are alternate munition types for standard LRM & SRM launchers.

[Alistair Winter]

Alan Davion, on 02 August 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

Bull. So much freaking bull.
I have not seen a TAG user in bloody months, I haven't seem LRM boats in about the same length of time. I've only seen one LRM Catapult last month, other than that I've only seen K2's/Jesters. There is so much freaking ECM running around right now that LRM/TAG are all but useless.
And a range reduction is NOT a nerf.
ECM will still be as powerful as it is now, the only, and I mean ONLY thing this range reduction will do is force people to bring even MORE ECM to the table, which is the exact opposite thing we need to have happen.
You think it's bad now? Trust me, it will get worse.

If you haven't seen an LRM boat in months, then I have a few possible explanations:

• "Bull. So much freaking bull." I.e. you haven't been paying attention.
  
• You're not playing a whole lot
  
• You're playing with the top 5% best players in the game, who never use LRM boats. Because I've played with the bottom 95% and let me tell you, LRM boats are not a rare sight.

Either of these explanations seem perfectly valid to me. It's fairly well known that LRMs are very rare when you hit the highest Elo group. But in the meaty part of the Elo bell curve, there's plenty of LRM boats. Not as numerous as laservomit boats or ballistic boats, obviously. But they're quite numerous.

And TAGs are just as common.

Now, I've seen you in-game before with my clan account (Tristan Winter). The next time I see you, I'll point out the LRM boats in the match, if there are any.

[Hit the Deck]

Making LRM be able to track ECM sources would be hilarious!

[JC Daxion]

Graugger, on 01 August 2015 - 08:42 PM, said:

BAP range was buffed recently cause of all the QQ about ECM and now you're complaining about it being taken back to old specs because they're nerfing ECM.

-.-

Really, you're complaining about LRM boats with NO back up weapons whatsoever getting the short stick for the BAP nerf. WTF are you doing with ONLY LRMs?

Bias is bias and in this complaint it's more obvious than a budget discussion in D.C.

Next I suppose you'll want TAG to have the same max range as gauss and to pass through non-metallic map objects stating that it should only reflect off metallic surfaces cause that's what mechs are made from. Better yet why don't we have a LRM system that tracks onto ECM sources so it's completely stupid to bring it to the battlefield! Yes, Paul do it! Make the missiles track ECM mechs when they don't have locks!

-.-

wow talk about jumping to conclusions.... And where did i say anything about only bringing LRM missile boats? I was talking about mechs that don't have energy hard points if you read the post.. A couple examples are the catapult A1, and C1, though the c1 does have two.. that means if you run outta ammo if you have tag you will only have one ML or MPL if you are lucky.. there are others, but i don't own them, but if you go scroll through smurfy, you will find them..


There was zero crying in my post, it's called a civil discussion about game mechanics, but i suppose that is not something you wan't to do.. You sound more like an ECM user that is afraid to be with out..


Yes LRM's can be bad, and used by bad players,, But if you play an LRM-skirmisher, that likes to fight in the 200-400m range, Basically with the brawlers then maybe you would have a clue about how they work.. Not everyone sits back behind a building 800m away hoping they hit something. the HBK 4J, and catapult C4 are perfect examples, not to mention the stalker 3H, another that you can boat a pair of 20's, and have lasers and SRM's.. A great 250m second line brawler stalkers. My C4 runs LRM's+ 3 MPLS, and a tag, the 4J, runs dual 10's with 3 Lasers+ tag. I am always in what i call long brawl range as soon as i can get there..

That is if the team is not full of a bunch of peak and shoot ERLL, PPC, AC5, Gauss users... You know when someone actually wants to brawl... I am right behind them.. Unless of course i am playing my own brawler, which i do about 75% of the time, i hope that the LRMer on my team is a long brawler as there is nothing i like more than having the rain come when i am blasting away at 90m with an AC-20 and SRM's point blank... Kinda hard to hide behind a rock, when someone is destroying you... You know that magic thing called team work?


LRMing in brawl range, tossing missiles over the head of a brawler while he circle passes in front, then you blast away with AC's or energy from the 250m range is a fine tactic.. I'll take that any day verse getting blasted in the back by someone that doesn't have trigger control..

like others have said, this will also effect streaks as well, as TAG does not work in close under ECM unless it is countered


and yes, every single one of my LRM mechs, have other weapons, typically adding up to 20-30 points of damage on most, and i always bring my own tag on all but 2 of my mechs, One because it doesn't have the option, the other because i don't like caring just one laser.. as i prefer the dual streak + dual laser set up.. which is why i am running bap in the first place.


So either add to the discussion, or troll someplace else...

Bush Hopper, on 02 August 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

:Try playing a non-ecm light mech when your opponent has streaks. It is idiotic.

Funny, all the lights i play often... Not a single one has ECM,, I do have an ECM commando but i prefer my deaths kneel, or 3A,, When i play ravens i like my 2X, and huggin rock, though i will play my 3L from time to time, with a Brawl set up.. My spiders i like my dual pulse spider best, because it can fly...

I rarely have issues with streaks.. If there is a streak boat around, i will find a new target and get outta dodge if i can't sneak behind.. Or wait till it is focused on something else and go in for the kill... Most players don't use the 360 module, so just get really close, and try to get behind and streaks are not a worry..

the only ECM mech i run semi often is my cicada 3M.. though i will say, that thing is a beast! Love the ac5+ 4ML play... again typically in the under 300m range.. Did i say i love to brawl and long brawl?

Edited by JC Daxion, 02 August 2015 - 03:00 PM.

[JC Daxion]

not directed at me.. whoops.. sorry man

Edited by JC Daxion, 02 August 2015 - 03:05 PM.