10 replies to this topic

[SirNotlag]

The Gist of my ideas are in the title, but they are actually 2 distinct things, one for the IS and the other for the Clans.


1) My idea for the IS is simple and turns out already has several topics:
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

In short it would be a change to allow Ferro fibre armour to use the weight it saved to throw on additional armour points on IS mechs making them slightly tankier.

I really like this as it actually create a choice between endo and FF, currently all the heavy mechs run endo there just isn't any point to running FF but if it made them tankier they now get to choose between more fire power and equipment or more armour. Lets use an Atlas as an example, because hes the most extreme. Currently he will save 5 tonnes using endo steel allowing him to carry more fire power, with this system if he ran FF he could get 14 extra armour points on centre torso and 10 on the side and legs, and 8 on the arms ( currently FF saves him 2.1 tonnes at full armour... completely pointless). Since he uses up the 2.1 tonnes to get the extra armour onto the mech he does not get any extra equipment, but he can now choose between the extra armour or the extra tonnage. He wont be able to run both as he doesn't have the slots for it.

It also self balances because the additional armour isn't free, it is not a damage reduction or a magic quirk they have to spend weight on it so builds that run both endo and ferro would have to drop a heat sink or 2 to get to use the additional armour points.

This idea only works for IS as the Clan ferro saves more weight and takes up only 7 slots it would just make the clans stuff much better and would not do anything to fix the fact certain clan chassis are just better than others.





2) My second idea is for the clans and It it is to unlock the upgrades for their mechs and let them choose . Their Ferro fibre armour would remain unchanged so endo steel would save more weight for them but the choice would come from slot allotment. While the upgrades for the IS take up a dynamic slot allowing them to fill up whatever part of the mech is not used the Clans have fixed structure and armour slots which cant be shifted. To provide meaningful choice between them have the ferro fibre generally use more favourable slots than endo.

Ex. when equipping endo steel on a clan mech the structure slots would fill the legs the head and 1 on each side torso. When equipping Ferro fibre the armour slots would take up 2 on each arm and then the side torsos and centre torsos for the rest. Simply by equipping endo steel a mech would loose the convenient place to put ammo or heat sinks. This would have to be set up on a per mech basis so mechs like the storm crow or adder which can throw lasers in the head don't have a hard point blocked for equipping endo.

The one thing I'm on the fence about is how to work this with the clans fixed equipment, some chassis just wouldn't have the slots to equip both because they have so much fixed equipment already taking up slots. My 2 ideas for this is to either replace some of the fixed equipment based on the upgrades or have partial dynamic slots for the clans but only on certain chassis when they have equipped both upgrades.

1. For the replacement idea ill use a nova as an example, with ferro the slots could take up 2 on each arm the head and then the last 1 on the each side torso for all 7. when equipping endo however it would replace all jump jets on the mech to use their slots taking up the 4 on the legs 2 on the centre and 1 on the right side torso. This makes it so a Nova can equip ferro if they want to save some weight but cant equip endo if they want to have jump jets. If they never use them anyway and want to save as much weight as possible endo also gives them the option to actually remove the jump jets. A nova could also run some builds if it decides to equip both upgrades.

2. For the partially dynamic idea I will use a warhawk as an example. When it only has one upgrade equipped it would be exactly as it is now taking up the slots that the armour slots take up (you might want to go to smurphy now and look at a warhawk so you can visualize what I'm talking about). These would be interchangeable so when equipping endo steel and standard armour those same slots would be used. However when throwing both endo and ferro on those slots would be used by the first upgrade, the second upgrade would take 1 slot on the centre torso and 1 slot on the right torso the other 5 slots needed would become dynamic filling in whatever was left on the mech, just like how IS slots shift around.

[Mister Blastman]

Just make it reflective armor. Done.


(I had a much better post written but for the second time in two days my browser deleted my post and flipped my screen when I pressed a key. Apparently the Clowns™ at Google decided making your backspace key the back button was a genius idea! Yeah! Let's make a commonly used key for editing text a back button so it deletes your whole document or post! Badass!)

Edited by Mister Blastman, 14 August 2015 - 08:34 AM.

[FupDup]

Buffing STD structure would actually have an "indirect buff" on Ferro, because then you could equip FF with STD structure to have the durability boost of STD, while getting a modest weight savings with FF. If you want to use Endo, then you don't get the STD structure boost. The combinations would look like this:

STD structure + STD armor = Crapload of slots and durability buff, but high tonnage

STD structure + Ferro = Durable with modest weight savings and critslot usage

Endo + Ferro = Maximum free weight but lots of slots, no durability buff

Endo + STD armor = Good amount of free weight and modest slot usage, no durability buff



Then we won't need to unlock Omnimech upgrades, because having a mech without Endo would no longer be an instant inferiority sentence.

[Khobai]

Quote

Buffing STD structure would actually have an "indirect buff" on Ferro,

Except STD structure doesnt need to be buffed. Ferro does.

So just directly buff Ferro and leave STD alone.


"But ENDO is better than STD"

yeah and single heatsinks are better than double heatsinks. better technology is better. thats why you pay more for it.

STD and endo working as intended.

however ferro has no real use in MWO because MWO doesnt have vehicles and one of the main uses of ferro in battletech was putting it on vehicles because vehicles couldnt use endo. So ferro does need a buff in MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 14 August 2015 - 10:31 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 14 August 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

Except STD structure doesnt need to be buffed. Ferro does.

So just directly buff Ferro and leave STD alone.

But dat EndoSteel moneysink tho...I don't liek it.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 14 August 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

"But ENDO is better than STD"

yeah and single heatsinks are better than double heatsinks. better technology is better. thats why you pay more for it.

STD and endo working as intended.

however ferro has no real use in MWO because MWO doesnt have vehicles and one of the main uses of ferro in battletech was putting it on vehicles because vehicles couldnt use endo. So ferro does need a buff in MWO.

The contradiction is strong in this one...First you want direct upgrades/downgrades, then you want to buff FF so it's a sidegrade instead of downgrade.

:\

[Khobai]

Quote

The contradiction is strong in this one...First you want direct upgrades/downgrades, then you want to buff FF so it's a sidegrade instead of downgrade.

There is no contradiction. Ferro cant be a direct upgrade if it doesnt compete with Endo.

You pay money for Endo over STD and its generally considered an upgrade over STD (except in a few cases like certain assault mechs).

But you also have to pay for Ferro. So Ferro should provide about the same upgrade over STD that Endo does. But it doesnt. Endo is outright better.

In other words, since Ferro and Endo both cost money, both should be upgrades over STD. Yet Endo is the only real upgrade because Ferro isnt worth upgrading to most of the time. The only time Ferro is ever purchased is when Endo is already being used.

So yes I want direct upgrades. But I want the upgrades to be choices rather than one being outright better than the other.

Edited by Khobai, 14 August 2015 - 02:42 PM.

[SirNotlag]

FupDup, on 14 August 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Buffing STD structure would actually have an "indirect buff" on Ferro, because then you could equip FF with STD structure to have the durability boost of STD, while getting a modest weight savings with FF. If you want to use Endo, then you don't get the STD structure boost. The combinations would look like this:

STD structure + STD armor = Crapload of slots and durability buff, but high tonnage

STD structure + Ferro = Durable with modest weight savings and critslot usage

Endo + Ferro = Maximum free weight but lots of slots, no durability buff

Endo + STD armor = Good amount of free weight and modest slot usage, no durability buff



Then we won't need to unlock Omnimech upgrades, because having a mech without Endo would no longer be an instant inferiority sentence.

I actually like this idea, I really do.

Its simple but still does everything I am suggesting. If PGI actually implemented your idea I would be happy, but I also agree with Kobai that Ferro and endo are upgrades which cost c-bills to place on a mech so they should be better than standard equipment. TT had a balance between endo and Ferro which is not present in MWO which causes Ferro to be completely inferior to endo. Its not an upgrade now because no one goes ferro and then swaps it out for endo later they just save up the with acouple more matches and buy endo first, bypassing Ferro.

[SirNotlag]

Mister Blastman, on 14 August 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Just make it reflective armor. Done.

I don't think reflective armour is in the timeline yet. Plus the way things are implemented we may never get those because we still don't have access to the other armour types which would currently be available.

Nowadays though I really really want something to reduce damage from the laser vomit meta.

Edited by SirNotlag, 15 August 2015 - 05:08 AM.

[Hashocky]

I like the idea to unlock the upgrades for the clans most of the clan top dogs already come with both so it would bring all the under performers on the clan side up a little making them more viable, because all I seem to see is storm crows and timbers.

I also like the idea of using it to replace the fixed equipment on some of the mechs giving them some way of removing stuff you really don't want.

[Chuck Jager]

Unlocking clan endo/ferr could give some good builds to Hbringer, Twolf and Dwolf. The timber has plenty of tonnage for mid range lasers but could use more heatsinks if they took off ferro. The Dwolf and HBR could both load up more gauss.

I think the clan locked issue is going to be an issue any way it is dealt with. I do like the locked crit slots to so that every torso ballistic can not be uac20s or Gauss.

I do think there should never be an option for Ferro until after Endo is chosen for both clan and IS. This just hurts new players and the folks they get teamed with.

Edited by Chuck YeaGurr, 30 August 2015 - 01:11 PM.