39 replies to this topic

[Kaelin]

CASE systems prevent damage from and ammo explosion in the side torso locations effecting the center torso, they limit the damage to that one location. (no sense saying the arm, because you lose all side torso STR, the arm is gone anyway)

if you have an IS XL engine it has 3 criticals in each of the side torso sections CASE would blow them out, and your engine with it. no exceptions.

CASE is a good idea on mechs packing lots of ammo, unless they have XL engines.

if you have an XL engine CASE is redundant.

<EDIT> Due to being corrected, this apparently isn't quite as fatal as I thought it was, you'll still be out the match but it'll cost less in repairs. still, not a big fan of XL engines.

Edited by Kaelin, 06 July 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[DerMaulwurf]

Unless repair costs play a role. Repairing a side torso and the three engine crits is probably much cheaper than rebuilding the whole mech.

[Astaroth]

I think the point he's trying to make is that three engine hits also kills your engine, making your mech immobile.

[Kaelin]

DerMaulwurf, on 06 July 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

Unless repair costs play a role. Repairing a side torso and the three engine crits is probably much cheaper than rebuilding the whole mech.

ooh, semi-valid point. however
the extra crits of the XL engines aren't considered a separate entity, the whole engine is split across 3 locations. and critical engine damage is a 'shroom event regardless.

[DevlinCognito]

... unless this game makes you pay for damage done to your Mech. Ammo explosion will vape the mech, a shot out engine but basic structure of a mech could save you a butt load of cash. In a one off game it makes no difference either way, you're still dead, in a campaign setting it could save you a shed load of cash for .5 tonnes.

[Kaelin]

Astaroth, on 06 July 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

I think the point he's trying to make is that three engine hits also kills your engine, making your mech immobile.

no; 3 critical engine hits, and it explodes. fusion bomb style.
<Yes I got this wrong, no need to continually quote it>

Edited by Kaelin, 06 July 2012 - 06:44 AM.

[Der Zivilist]

No it doesn't.

Mech fusion engines do not explode. See here, where one guy was so kind and summarized most of the flavor info in the TechManual (core rules 2).

[Arctic Fox]

Kaelin, on 06 July 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

no; 3 critical engine hits, and it explodes. fusion bomb style.

Actually, you need four simultaneous engine crits for a (possible, and rather unlikely) fusion engine explosion to happen, which a side torso ammo explosion with CASE will not generate. Not to mention that fusion engine explosions under standard rules do no damage (They are likened to a bursting balloon rather than a nuclear bomb) and that the rule under which they do is both optional and specifically noted as being unrealistic.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 06 July 2012 - 06:26 AM.

[Ogryn]

The other thing about CASE, for the Gauss fans out there, is that any critical hit on the Gauss rifle itself does a 20 point internal explosion, applied in the same way as an ammo explosion. If the location of the Gauss has CASE, the damage is prevented. Fluff is that the capacitors blow out catastrophically, and CASE allows it to vent out. Only applies to the side torso locations for the IS version tho.

[Kaelin]

Der Zivilist, on 06 July 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

Mech fusion engines do not explode. See here, where one guy was so kind and summarized most of the flavor info in the TechManual (core rules 2).

Arctic Fox, on 06 July 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

Actually, you need four simultaneous engine crits for a (possible, and rather unlikely) fusion engine explosion to happen, which a side torso ammo explosion with CASE will not generate. Not to mention that fusion engine explosions under standard rules do no damage (They are likened to a bursting balloon rather than a nuclear bomb) and that the rule under which they do is both optional and specifically noted as being unrealistic.

hehe, I bow before your superior knowledge of the TT. (sincerely)
if this is indeed the case, I may have to revise some of my concepts

Edited by Kaelin, 06 July 2012 - 06:31 AM.

[Der Zivilist]

Oh, CASE buffers gauss explosions? I didn't know that. I'll have to dig out my rulebooks again once I get home. If that's true, I'll probably invest in CASE whenever I put a gauss rifle in a torso location.

[Strum Wealh]

Kaelin, on 06 July 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

no; 3 critical engine hits, and it explodes. fusion bomb style.

"Fusion engines usually will only shut down if damaged, and they are absolutely no risk of being a fusion bomb. There have been a number of cases of fusion engines being "over revved" and exploding with devestating force, but this is more akin to a boiler explosion than a true nuclear explosion. More often a destroyed engine will be punctured by weapons fire. Because the plasma is held in a vacuum chamber (to isolate the superheated plasma from the cold walls of the reactor; contact with the walls would super-chill the plasma below fusion temperatures), a punctured reactor can suck in air where the air is superheated. Normal thermal expansion of the air causes the air to burst out in a brilliant lightshow often mistaken for a "nuclear explosion". The Thermal Expansion damages anything within 90 meters of the destroyed 'Mech.

Such dramatic failures are rare, though. It is difficult to sustain the fusion reaction and very easy to shutdown. Safety systems or damage to containment coils will almost always shut down the engine before such an explosion occurs. The massive shielding of the engine (in the case of standard fusion engines, this is a tungsten carbide shell that accounts for over 2/3 of the weight of the engine) usually buys the safety systems the milliseconds needed to shutdown the engine when severe damaged is inflicted."

No, a BattleMech's Fusion Engine does not "explode fusion bomb style".

It is possible to blow the engine, and if you're also packing several tons of ammo, it could potentially be quite devastating and destructive to the immediate area (more so than the normal 90 meter (~295.27 feet) radius for the superheated air).

[Arctic Fox]

Ogryn, on 06 July 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

The other thing about CASE, for the Gauss fans out there, is that any critical hit on the Gauss rifle itself does a 20 point internal explosion, applied in the same way as an ammo explosion. If the location of the Gauss has CASE, the damage is prevented. Fluff is that the capacitors blow out catastrophically, and CASE allows it to vent out. Only applies to the side torso locations for the IS version tho.

I don't remember anything about Gauss Rifle explosions being treated differently than regular ammo explosions with CASE. Where is that information from, if I may ask?

[Jakob Knight]

It's misleading to say it 'prevents' damage. CASE only prevents the transfer of damage from one torso location to the next. The damage is still done to the torso where the explosion occurred. And Guass Rifle explosions are treated as normal ammo explosions in this regard.

This is, of course, all according to TT rules. How it is implemented in MWO remains to be seen.

[Kaelin]

Arctic Fox, on 06 July 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

I don't remember anything about Gauss Rifle explosions being treated differently than regular ammo explosions with CASE. Where is that information from, if I may ask?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_rifle

[Ogryn]

Ack. Downside of memory and not checking the books. Case prevents transfer, doesn't prevent damage from Gauss blowouts. That was my mistake. Pg 133 Total War.

If ammo (or any other explosive component, such as a gauss
rifl e) in a CASE-equipped location explodes, it damages the
internal structure in that location. Any excess damage simply
dissipates, rather than transferring to an additional internal
structure location. Remember that the loss of all internal
structure in a side torso location also blows off the corresponding
arm, though the arm is not damaged by the explosion and can
still be used as a club (see p. 145).
If an ammo explosion transfers into a location protected by
CASE, the internal structure in that location takes damage as
normal. All excess damage is dissipated, as above. For example,
if an Inner Sphere ’Mech suff ered an arm ammo explosion and
damage transferred to a side torso equipped with CASE, the
internal structure of the side torso would suff er damage as
normal, and then the excess damage would harmlessly blow out
the CASE panels.

Still, it's something to consider, since the internal ammo explosion from the gauss rilfe bypasses center torso armor to propagate against the internals of the CT. All depends on how they model it, and if they do, whether the prevention is worth the .5 tons compared to trying to limp along after the loss of an arm, a side torso and your main gun.

Edited by Ogryn, 06 July 2012 - 06:49 AM.

[Turigand]

It seems this thread has managed to clear up a few things so that's good.

There are essentially three possible outcomes for a mech suffering from an ammo explosion.

1> No CASE/Any engine type.
An ammo explosion guts the mech. The mech will immediately be out of combat and will need a full engine and gyro replacement along with a good part of its internal structure replace.

2> CASE and an Normal engine. The mech will still be active in combat, with whatever side blown out and the attached arm unusable. The mech will require significant repair however, the most expensive parts have been saved.

3> CASE and an IS XL engine. Similar to #2, the side containing the ammo is destroyed, the mech suffers 3 engine shielding criticals and automatically shuts down - mech is out of combat. Repairs are similar to #2, with the addition of 3 units of engine shielding also needing repair.

From a pure tabletop, one off battle point of view, XL engine/CASE combo seems pointless. From an ongoing game point of view, CASE will save you significantly on repair bills IF you suffer an ammo explosion.

An XL equipped mech that has CASE (and ammo ofcourse) is no more vulnerable than a mech without CASE, but does have a significant battlefield weakness compared to a mech with a normal engine and appropriate CASE protection.

[Broceratops]

you can put the ammo in your arms and the case in your arms, so that an explosion of ammo will not get to your XL L/R torso

me, i say screw case. i'm a man.

[Arctic Fox]

Turigand, on 06 July 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

1> No CASE/Any engine type.
An ammo explosion guts the mech. The mech will immediately be out of combat and will need a full engine and gyro replacement along with a good part of its internal structure replace.

That's usually the case, but there can be instances where an ammunition explosion can be survivable if, for example, the ammunition hit is already mostly depleted. A 'Mech isn't automatically dead from an ammo explosion.

Broceratops, on 06 July 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

you can put the ammo in your arms and the case in your arms, so that an explosion of ammo will not get to your XL L/R torso

me, i say screw case. i'm a man.

You can only put CASE in the arms with Clan tech, in which case you get it for free, or using CASE II.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 06 July 2012 - 07:15 AM.

[Kyle Knightraven]

One other, rather important factor to consider. Ammo explosion without case generally means totally destroyed mech and DEAD PILOT... So CASE on a mech with XL engine does have that one thing going for it. Likely, this has little impact on MWO (at least I hope ).