5 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

Thread also posted to OutreachHPG: https://www.reddit.c...balance_and_tt/

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I've always wanted to fashion a table that compares MWO's weapon balance to Tabletop balance. Especially now that PGI is banging their heads against walls trying for a full game rebalance, now is perhaps the time for me to do this and satiate some curiousities.

Here is said table: TABLE.

Weapon ranges in tabletop are measured in hexes, which represent 30 meters each. MWO typically considers "long range" in TT as their "optimum range" (and then randomly messes with resultant values a bit). Tabletop turns are 10 seconds each, and each weapon can be fired once per turn. On average, MWO weapons are buffed by 1.82 dps compared to their TT counterparts (you could say "wahhh, that means MWO has faster TTK! I TOLD YOU!!" but remember that in TT, not all mechs have full armour, and one-shot kills were more common due to headshots, destruction of internal components, and mechs tending to fall over all the time). In order to compare MWO and TT dps, I've subtracted that average 1.70 to reveal the true differential.

In doing this comparison, I realised there were a few changes that PGI made that actually made balance worse in MWO than it was in tabletop. Here are some of the things that could be changed that would improve MWO balance while also being more true to the tabletop values.

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The first thing I noticed: Inner Sphere small and medium lasers are nerfed in MWO. They're both hotter, and lower in DPS. In fact, while cERSL and cERML are also nerfed, they're nerfed less than their IS counterparts. PGI wants to remind us that clams OP. Well, I see no reason why this should be, so I would kindly like to suggest:
- Return IS Small Lasers and Medium Lasers to their TT heat values of 1 and 3 respectively. This change will help these weapons to compete against their Clan counterparts.


The next thing I noticed: Clan MPL are super-nerfed. They are the only weapon that PGI increased the heat on by 2. They also increased the damage by 1, but that doesn't make up for it - it's still the only Clan pulse laser that has less dmg/heat than its TT counterpart. And people wonder why so few people use Clan MPL?
- Return Clan Medium Pulse Lasers to their TT damage of 7 and heat of 4 or at least just reduce their heat by 1. This will help Clan MPL compare more favourably with the other Clan pulse lasers.


Speaking of MPL, let's look at the IS MPL. The damage and heat match TT, but the DPS is out of whack. Whereas, compared to TT, PGI nerfed smaller lasers more than larger lasers, the MPL stands out as being the most nerfed in terms of DPS. Let's remember that before Quirkening, MPL were pretty trash. Maybe this is why.
- Reduce the cooldown on IS MPL by at least 0.2 seconds so it falls more in line with the other pulse lasers like it would in TT.


While we're thinking about pulse lasers, let's take a look at the others. IS SPL is increased by 1 damage, but it doesn't pose too many problems. The LPL is increased by 2 damage and reduced by 3 heat... but again, it's not much of a problem. The cSPL though? It's increased by 3 damage, and it does pose some balancing issues. It's really f'in good, especially on ACH, IFR, and some brawlers. The cLPL? Also increased by 3 damage. The cLPL is also really f'in good and poses some balance issues. It synergises with cERML and cGauss very well and this causes problems.
- Reduce the damage of both cSPL and cLPL by 1. This brings them closer to their TT value where they compare more favourably with the cMPL and the IS pulses and aren't so OP.


There's one more that bothers me, and it's the cERLL. PGI increased its damage by one AND had its heat reduced by two. Again, PGI wants clans to be even more OP than they are in TT. At least they nerfed the range on it by a measly 10 meters...
- Restore the cERLL's damage back down to its TT value of 10 and/or possibly increase its heat by 1.


Then I got to thinking about the Clan ER PPC. The thing about the Clan ER PPC, is the Clans not only managed to make the weapon lighter and longer range, but they also were able to make it deal more damage. In MWO, the cERPPC is kinda trash. Nobody uses it, it's terrible. I think I know why: it only deals 10 damage, just like the IS version. Sure, it can deal up to 5 splash damage, but... first of all it's not guaranteed (if you hit an arm or leg, you only get one of the two 2.5's), and it's not pinpoint. Where did this "splash damage" mechanic come from? I can't find any mention of it in tabletop. Perhaps then, there is plenty of wiggle room on how its handled.
- Change Clan ERPPC damage to 12 with 1.5 splash damage instead of 10 with 2.5 splash damage.


But wait! Clams OP! How does the IS tech compare? Well, in terms of DPS, the Clan version is superior because it does more than 10 damage in the same 4-second cooldown that it shares with IS. In fact, a lot more damage than it should because the rate of fire for all PPCs is a lot greater than it would be in TT (by 250%) and that extra 5 damage adds up more quickly than it rightfully should.
- Reduce the cooldown on IS PPC and ERPPC by at least 0.2 seconds or increase the cooldown on Clan ERPPC by at least 0.2 seconds. This bring their dps closer to TT balance.


So how about the AC/2? The AC/2 is generally regarded as terrible because it's so hot. Now... ACs are one of the things that don't translate so well from lore. For some reason, PGI decided that Inner Sphere ACs fired single slugs despite the fact that ACs should really fire near continuously. (ever wonder why AC/20, the bigger gun, has shorter range than AC/2, the tiny gun? Well... consider that an AC/20 like the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is at least a 150mm gun (here is a 152mm howlitzer for reference)... that fires one round per second. That's a lot of recoil - I can only imagine that thing bustling around in a mech and throwing off aim and being a nightmare for the targeting computers... to the point where it's so inaccurate that it's only useful for short range.) Anyways... I got sidetracked. The AC/2. Well in tabletop, there are no weapons that cost less than 1 heat per turn (other than weapons that cost 0 heat or equipment that has cooling effects). I think this is a bit of an oversight, because that means that while the AC/5 costs 1 heat, the AC/2 must also cost 1 heat because it has to be an integer.
- Reduce the heat generated by the AC/2 by at least 0.3 heat. Actually, at 0.6 heat per shot, it would match the AC/10 and AC/20 for heat/dmg.


For now, I'm going to end with the humble Machine Gun and Flamer. We know that Paul refuses to buff the Flamer because "blinding particle effects." blah blah blah. While compared to Tabletop, the DPS of both the MG and Flamer in MWO is actually greater, they aren't buffed nearly as much as every other weapon's DPS is. In other words, they're actually the two most nerfed weapons in the game.
- Increase the DPS of the MG and Flamer by at the very least 0.2 or as much as 1.0

Edited by Tarogato, 14 September 2015 - 07:31 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

You should add IS ER small and medium and X-Pulse lasers to your list. They would go a long way in balancing IS and Clans.

[Tarogato]

XX Sulla XX, on 14 September 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

You should add IS ER small and medium and X-Pulse lasers to your list. They would go a long way in balancing IS and Clans.

They are out of timline. This post is about fixing what we have to work with, not introducing more things that need to be separately balanced.

[Mcgral18]

I still don't forgive Paul for touching my WubMakers...my Cute Fox still cries.


The cSPL is a wonderful brawling tool, although if you touch the damage, you'd also need to touch either the heat or the duration. Could probably buff the isSPL as well, either range or damage.
You want low range weapons to be effective at short range (unlike, say, SRMs).


Asking for nerfs to the cERLL? Well...I'm not too sure about that. It's pretty bad. the 1.5s duration kills it pretty badly, for that much heat. If you remove the damage, you'll need to remove some heat or duration (which would be fine).

0.2 DPS for the Flamer? Weaksauce. Go big or go home. Give the MG back its rightful 1 DPS (dat 20% nerf, thanks Paul). Reduce the CoF on the cMG to 0.5 Spread (down from 1.5) so it has a 1M CoF (down from 3M). Remove the CoF entirely on the isMG for double weight.

For the Flamer? It's got some confusing stats which were unprofessionally added:

<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanFlamer.dds" descTag="@ClanFlamer_desc" nameTag="@ClanFlamer"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.25" speed="100" lifetime="1.0" duration="-1.0" tons="0.5" maxRange="90.0" longRange="90.0" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="0" ammoType="" cooldown="0.0" heat="1.0" impulse="0.0" heatdamage="0.0" damage="0.7" numFiring="1" projectileclass="" type="Energy" slots="1" Health="10" maxheight="0" critChanceIncrease="0.14,0.08,0.03" critDamMult="1.1" trgheatinctime="3.0" heatinctime="6.25" coneoffire="10"/>

The last three being weird. I'm going to ignore all that, keeping the worst attributes of the flamer and recommend a single change:

damage="2.0"

That's right, nearly 3x damage.



It IS the shortest range weapon in the game, with the worst characteristic, DoT Hitscan continuous fire. If you manage to close to 100M, you should be able to hurt something.

I won't comment on the PPC.

For SRMs, buff projectile speed to 500M/s (AC20 at 650M/s), isSRM damage to 2.5, spread adjusted as appropriate.

If possible, bring back the old Artemis spin for isSRMs.

Clans can join in some, but not all, of the buffs. Half weight, whatever's appropriate.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I have no problem raising Heat on Weapons, restoring some of their values. But, I don't think C-MPLs need that much help, they actually seem in an okay spot.

But I would also increase Dissipation and reduce Heat Capacity in the process. The Dissipation can actually help PPCs out some due to how current HS cannot really handle HPS output.

For example, here's some aspects I'm considering:

Spoiler

Reduce the value of 30 that you mention to 14
Disable Cool Run and Heat Containment
Change Heat Scale Penalty buckets to better account for damage above say 30 to 40 Damage, including more weapon combos
Raise Dissipation and Adjust Capacity with Cool Run and Heat Containment being disabled and replaced.

SHS
0.25 Dissipation
1.00 Capacity

IS DHS
0.40 Dissipation
2.00 Capacity

Clan DHS
0.30 Dissipation
1.60 Capacity

This way 28 SHS would provide 7.00 Dissipation a second and 42 Capacity to the First Shutdown we can Override. For comparison firing three PPCs with current AWS-8Q PPC Heat Gen Quirks and Heat Scale Penalties factored is ~31.95 Heat, HPS is in the range of 7.98 to ~9.98 depending on Fast Fire, cooldown quirks and Weapon Modules. Then two PPCs would be 15 Heat, so the player would need to alternate firing to avoid shutting down, along the lines of 3/2/3 and so on.

20 IS DHS would provide 8.00 Dissipation and a Capacity of 54 Capacity to the First Shutdown we can Override. If we consider the AWS-9M with its ERPPC quirks, an alpha of all three is ~47.93, with an HPS of ~11.98 to ~13.69. and so would need to be careful.

28 Clan DHS would provide 8.40 Dissipation and a Capacity of 58.8 to the First Shutdown we can Override. If we consider the Warhawk Prime. Firing three would spike heat really close to shutdown at ~58.79 in most maps and if moving. Firing two is a spike of 27.6 with an HPS of ~6.90 to 7.26.

An Adder Prime with 15 Clan DHS has 4.50 Dissipation and a Capacity of 38 to the First Shutdown we can Override. Firing two ERPPCs is a spike of 25.5 with an HPS of ~6.38 to 6.71. A single ERPPC is 12.75 spike with an HPS of ~3.18 to ~3.35. So much more sustainable than what we currently see, even with a reduced Capacity.

A 6xMPL Timber with 26 DHS, would have a Dissipation of 7.8 and a Capacity of 55.6 to the First Shutdown we can Override.
At their current heat of 6 each, the mech would spike 36 Heat with an HPS between ~9.35 to ~12.00. So there could be a Heat Scale Penalty that can be applied since the damage sits at 48. And I would have no problem seeing C-MPLs return to 7 Damage each while retaining their current 6 Heat, since base Dissipation would be increased anyway.

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MG's I'd like to see them as projectile weapons:

0.50 Damage per Projectile
0.63 Cooldown
350 to 650 m/s Velocity
800 Rounds per Ton (so yes, 400 damage per Ton is also restored)
96 Rounds per Minute
90 M Full Damage, with Max Damage Range at 240 M

And Flamers, even providing them the smallest Cooldown Interval with their whatever beam duration and boosted damage, would go a long way to at least prevent the user from the exponential heat increase they suffer from.

[KhanCipher]

Tarogato, on 14 September 2015 - 07:03 AM, said:

(ever wonder why AC/20, the bigger gun, has shorter range than AC/2, the tiny gun? Well... consider that an AC/20 like the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is at least a 150mm gun (here is a 152mm howlitzer for reference)... that fires one round per second. That's a lot of recoil - I can only imagine that thing bustling around in a mech and throwing off aim and being a nightmare for the targeting computers... to the point where it's so inaccurate that it's only useful for short range.)

a small note on that, there is an AC20 that's plausible for being able to fire one big slug over a stream... and that's the 203mm UAC20 on the Cauldron-Born A (the biggest autocannon mm size that was fluffed as well).

Quote

Alt. Config. A
Built around what was once the largest gun in the Clan arsenal, the Cauldron-Born A is capable of dealing blistering damage at a variety of ranges. For long range, the A uses a pair of ER Large Lasers. At close range, the MechWarrior can switch to a 203mm Ultra Autocannon/20 that carries a fair amount of ammunition, along with a Medium Pulse Laser, and an ER Medium Laser. For anti-infantry work, it carries a pair of Machine Guns and a multi-purpose Flamer. Finally, the A variant has a pair of ER Medium Lasers mounted in the rear to discourage lighter 'Mechs from taking advantage of its relatively weak rear armor. The MechWarrior must carefully shepherd his or her weapons fire, as the variant carries no additional heat sinks. BV (1.0) = 1,860^[1][6][5], BV (2.0) = 2,429^[7]