24 replies to this topic

[Erebus Alpha]

I am looking to buy a heavy mech that is fast, agile, jump-capable across all variants, with good hitboxes for spreading damage in a brawl. Only three heavy mechs are ubiquitously jump-capable: the Grasshopper, Quickdraw, and Summoner.

The Grasshopper has the most tonnage to play with, and enough hardpoints to build some nasty assault-busting laser builds, but the hitbox concerns me. It's nearly as tall as an Atlas. Does this mech's relative skinniness make it difficult to hit? Does it have the hitboxes, armor, and speed necessary to run interference against assaults? How does it stack up against laservomit, dakka, and the lurm-apocalypse?

To compare: I love my griffins. My 6x medium laser Sparky (griffin hero) gets 600+ damage per game, and the NASA-grade 67.1/67.1 jump distance is AMAZING. I don't drive Griffins, I fly them. The only thing I don't enjoy about it is how tall and easy it is to hit; it takes a lot of damage when running interference and drawing enemy fire.

Of all three of the mechs, the Grasshopper has the least appealing takeoff speeds & delta-V. Three of four grasshopper variants have only 30.1 max jump distance, and the 5J has a max 45.2. And even with the largest engine I can shove in the mech, I can only get it up to 78 KPH un-elited.

The Quickdraw overwhelmingly stands out as the fastest and most agile of the jump-capable heavies. 97.2 KPH un-elited borders on spectacular. It's shorter, but a bit wider than the grasshopper, and approximately the same height as the Griffins I enjoy so much. They also have the strongest jump acceleration of the group; most have 43.9 max jump distance, and the 4G has 61.5, almost on par with the Griffins. Since it is only five tons heavier, I do not imagine the loadouts would differ significantly from the Griffins.

The third option is the Summoner, the only clan-tech option available for a fast & flyable striker. It's ten tons heavier than the Quickdraw, and almost exactly the same size (minus the shoulder-mounted missile tube). The jump distance isn't great, but it isn't terrible either; all variants come with distance maxed at 37.6. And it can throw away a side torso without dying, because the clans figured out how to build XL's with system redundancy! Yay!

The clan tech meta does complicate things a bit; most clan weapons require a longer time-on-target to do full damage. And unfortunately, the clans made the idiot's choice when designing the summoner; they used FF armor instead of endosteel internals. It costs the exact same number of slots and only saves half as much weight, and none of the techs can figure out how to cut the thing apart, install endosteel, and weld it back together.

Apparently the clans' lack of engineering prowess does not end there; the Quickdraw and Grasshopper's lower arm actuators can actuate 35 and 30 degrees away from the torso respectively, good for shooting in directions that you do not want to point your torso. The summoner can only manage a 20-degree difference between arm and torso offset.

The summoner's rather abysmal hardpoints also concern me; this thing will never be able to mount a very long list of weapons. Just mounting a semi-competent laser payload requires both arms.

Thoughts? Ideas? Rants?

PS: Quirks change too frequently for me to bother chasing them.

Edited by ABFalcon, 23 September 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[Chados]

I like the Quickdraws. I came >< that close to buying a mastery pack. I think agility is a must, I like the Jester very much for that. It's always good to be able to hit the jets and levitate out of trouble. And Victors with all four jets can jump on top of buildings, I ran a mission in Mining Collective where I was sniping with an AC20 and LPLs from a roof, and supporting a push. It was much fun, and when my team made it through the enemy line I jumped down and backed them in cleanup duty, racking up some kills in the process.

Jets add a third dimension to your options. I'm all for them. I think the Thor is underrated, and can be a tough 'mech when you compare it to IS 70-80 ton competition. And a lot of folks like the GHR, I don't think much of it because I don't like its looks, but the word on the street is that it's a tremendous laser brawler.

Edited by Chados, 23 September 2015 - 02:06 PM.

[InspectorG]

Large laser Quickdraw is likely the strongest candidate. Very mobile and has nice quirks.

Summoners are a poptart's dream...and not much else. It is hardpoint AND tonnage starved but is VERY mobile and despite its flaws, still ends up having Clan weapons and Clan Xl engine...which makes it better than most IS heavies.

I love Summoners but hate how PGI treats them. There is a whole and quite long topic on how PGI could fix them but...i think we gave up.

Grasshoppers??? Im not sure. Never piloted one, the Wub-version stands out, well, because wubs.

IMO, really 1-2 JJ is all you need. And this is where the Summoner loses tonnage. You dont really need to jump that far, enough to clear terrain and turn mid air. Anything more is likely wasted tonnage.

[Tastian]

The Summoner just doesn't have enough tonnage to play with imho.

The Grasshopper is tall and lanky but can sport some fun laser or PPC jump builds and has a couple high mounts (Grasshoppers have the disadvantage of looking like naked episode 1 C-3P0).

The Quickdraw is quite the underdog; it won't be much different from the Sparky but you'll get a lot of cheers if you do well in them. I loved them pre-clan. Good combinations of lasers and SRMs. Most people will probably argue they aren't XL friendly.

[Erebus Alpha]

I would disagree; lots of jump jets have saved my butt repeatedly. Mechs like the firestarter and griffin, with maxed jump jets, can accelerate vertically fast enough to spread (and often outright dodge) incoming fire. It might even be faster than MASC; it doesn't seem like MASC users are hard to hit, really. The extra jets are also incredibly useful because you can clear multiple obscacles, go airborne, and change directions absurdly quickly - not just once, but multiple times in a row, without having to wait for the jump jets to recharge. More thrust means it only takes a half-second of thrust to do these things, instead of a 100-to-zero burn.

This is especially awesome with the griffin, since the net rotation of the torso and the arms gives almost full 360-degree coverage. By comparison, streaks actually kind of suck as a countermeasure against lights, and aiming while jumping isn't hard at brawling-ranges.

On mechs like the victor, it's a fairly painful tonnage expenditure, but TOTALLY worth it.

I'm thinking that if I go with the summoner, I will set up a couple of missileboats, and for the third variant, maybe a big-ass shoulder autocannon & quad lasers? Like a tankier hunchback that can fly?

[Tesunie]

Don't underestimate the Grasshopper's speed. My Grasshopper goes 97 kph with speed tweak.

Though, I do also like my Quickdraw (which is good for XL engines) and my Summoners too....

[Cerberias]

That's quite possibly the worst grasshopper build I've ever seen. Well done.

[Tesunie]

Cerberias, on 23 September 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

That's quite possibly the worst grasshopper build I've ever seen. Well done.

Really? What's so bad about it? (I do presume you talking about my build, seen as you quoted no one, and I'm the only one who posted a build.)

I've actually been told the opposite by many people, but I'd like to know why you think it's "the worst build [you]'ve ever seen".

(I would have thought this one would be considered worse... )

[Torezu]

I would personally change only one thing. I'd move both LPLs to one arm. Probably left, for me, since everyone aims right first. Otherwise, it's solid - fast and very maneuverable, and relatively cool. A little short on the firepower for a 70-tonner, but it's all in how you use it.

[Tesunie]

Torezu, on 23 September 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

I would personally change only one thing. I'd move both LPLs to one arm. Probably left, for me, since everyone aims right first. Otherwise, it's solid - fast and very maneuverable, and relatively cool. A little short on the firepower for a 70-tonner, but it's all in how you use it.

I find, at least with the Grasshopper, I'll lose my CT typically before anything else. But, that is always up to preference. I grasp the concept of a shield side of the mech.

I tend to use it as a fast skirmisher. Move in, hit hard, fade away. LPLs for any form of range, MPLs for when things get too hot (and to compliment the LPLs). It works well for me, especially when I ambush people along (old) River City Citadel, especially because they don't expect people to drop down on them from above (and behind). (Was actually designed to move with a light wave in CW. Could keep up (especially if they slowed down a tiny bit before hitting the gates), jump the gate, and provide some extra firepower and armor for the light mechs.)

[Bolter01]

Having Mastered Quickdraw and Grasshopper, I find the Quickdraw can be devastating.
Simple weapons ML and SRM4's, the agility of this mech is its weapon. Speed kills. I love lights for the same reason. Even the IVFour can pull some punches, but the above weapons in this mech with a daring, surprise attack attitude can really ruin and enemies line (hopefully your own light lance will back you up while the heavies appear and its mop up time!)

[Szandor]

Summoner's aren't fantastic, but not as bad as advertised. I've made quite a few C-Bills from people who were clearly underestimating the chassis. Of course I tend to drive lower-tier chassis anyway, so being underestimated is kinda my schtick. The maneuverability and speed (93k with speed tweak) help it tank well assuming you don't drive like a primate and know how to spread damage.

The lack of hardpoints means you generally have to mount large, blunt-instrument weapons like PPCs or high-caliber autocannon; it's simply not capable of participating in the laser vomit meta particularly well. Mine runs a UAC10, PPC, and ASRM6. Unimpressive on paper, but the Summoner's focus on driving rather than shooting means you can rack up quite a bit of damage if you're careful.

[InspectorG]

Szandor, on 25 September 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Summoner's aren't fantastic, but not as bad as advertised. I've made quite a few C-Bills from people who were clearly underestimating the chassis. Of course I tend to drive lower-tier chassis anyway, so being underestimated is kinda my schtick. The maneuverability and speed (93k with speed tweak) help it tank well assuming you don't drive like a primate and know how to spread damage.

The lack of hardpoints means you generally have to mount large, blunt-instrument weapons like PPCs or high-caliber autocannon; it's simply not capable of participating in the laser vomit meta particularly well. Mine runs a UAC10, PPC, and ASRM6. Unimpressive on paper, but the Summoner's focus on driving rather than shooting means you can rack up quite a bit of damage if you're careful.

The rub is how little PGI would need to do to make it a lot better...sigh.

Experimental build im playing with:

2LPL+2ERML for moblie pokes. Not bad, try not to sit still.

2LPL+3LRM5+Target Retention...havent tried it yet but LRM on chain to suppress(PUGging only) or save them till later when many are cored.

2LPL+3SRM4. SRM4 to avoid Artemis.

ERPPC+UAC10...little more damage but more spread.

2ERPPC...nice but guns hang low.

[Undercover Brother]

I'm not even going to bother reading through the rest of the comments. I already know how badly people hate the Summoner...

They say it's undergunned, lacks hardpoints, and "anything it can do, the Timberwolf does better..."

I have yet to master any other Clan mech. My K/D is the best with my Summoner. I was able to master it over a weekend (roughly 3 hours per varient).

It runs cold. It tanks damage like a beast. It's relatively quick. It's a Jack of all trades. It can jump.

What else could you want?

Try a D model with
2x AMS (1.5T ammo)
2x MG (.5T ammo)
2x DHS
2x ERMEDIUM
2x LGPLASER
Probe
TC 1

Or a B model with a D right arm? (Put Catapults to shame)

3x LRM10 (7T ammo)
2x MPLAS
1x AMS (1T ammo)
Probe

Then you have the "Crit-seeker" C Varient:

2x ERMEDIUM
1x SRM6 (1.5T ammo)
1x LBX-AC/10 (2T ammo)
Probe
TC 3

And, of course, the Prime Varient (Running a D Left arm)

1x LPLAS
TC 3
Probe
1x LRM20 (4.5T ammo)
2x ERMEDIUM

Each one of these is a real killer.

[Tahribator]

The Summoner as someone else said, is a great poptart. It can rack up good damage with the ERPPC+Gauss build and will quickly disarm and cripple opponents with good aim. The Summoner is also the tankiest of them all, it will tank a stupid amount of damage with little effort before going down. The downside to the Summoner is that it struggles to put out damage, due to how its hardpoints are laid out and low free tonnage. You can only have 4 laser hardpoints and they are located in your arms which hang pretty low. The arms also tend to tank a lot of damage and you'll lose them halfway into the battle more often than not. Dual UAC5+4xSL and UAC20+4xML builds get a honorable mention from me as brawlers, other than the classic SRM6/SSRM6 boating builds which are also situationally effective. Overall, it's stupid mobile and tanky, but you'll have problems with the weaponry a lot.

The Grasshopper is the obvious choice here (you can read my review and builds article). Its main attraction is its amazing firepower with IS lasers. Especially MPL and ML/LPL combos are very effective when utilized in a side-peeker configuration. It's decently mobile (feels significantly heavier than the Summoner though) and tanks well once you get a feeling for the hitboxes (again, nowhere near tanky as the Summoner). Despite all being energy boats, each variant is distinct and will let you fiddle. I'd go with a Grasshopper personally.

The Quickdraw is a trainwreck in terms of survivability. It has good hardpoints and some amazing quirks, but it's grossly overscaled. So while you find that you can do good damage when you don't get focused much, as soon as you take damage you'll start popping components very quickly. The 5K is a "quirk beauty" and will do well in the public queue and CW. The 4H gets a hoborable mention from me as a fast skirmisher. It can be really devastating when you catch something 1v1.

[Pat Sajak]

I have mastered all three mechs mentioned in this article. Hands down the most fun I had was with the Grasshoppers. Summoners were ok, and I really disliked the Quickdraws (even though it was one of my favs from the TT!)

The arms hardpoints in the Quickdraw are REALLY low. you will knick your shots on terrain way more than you would like. I never had a string of amazing games on the Quickdraw. Like mentioned above, if you are not focused you can do decently but meh.

The Summoner is a good balanced mech. I had a decent time leveling them and easy to spread damage on them.

Grasshoppers have a gigantic central hitbox. Due to this it makes it XL Engine friendly. They can have tremendous builds but with thos builds comes a huge cbill cost. I think I ran close to 9 million cbills for each Grasshopper to kit out (not including mods or cost of the mech itself) But once I had them kitted out, whomp whomp whomp, fun! IS mech that goes a little under 90 or over 90kph, that jumps and drops the bass? Yes please.

Who would NOT want to run around with 8 medium pulse lasers? So funny having a brawl with an emeny who is trying to protect their CT, so you give em 4, they turn thinking you shot your wad and give em another 4! I often find myself laughing like a bad guy in an anime as I take out CTs left and right.

[AlCapwnU2]

I'll be brief and share my thoughts on the 3 chassis.

Quickdraw - Greatest strength of this mech is it's tonnage effiency. IMO, not the greatest brawler these days, but can pull it off if you really desire. Mostly known for the quirks of the 5K.

Grasshopper - Nearly rivals the TDR as a laser boat. Better hitboxes imo and JJs. Really good with med pulse/ LPL and Meds/ or simply Large Laser boating. The 5N is an extremely good Med pulse boat and the 5P has nice hardpoint locations.

Summoner - Only good at 2 things imo. Poptarting and boating SRMs. I think this mech is a lot of fun, and it is actually really good at those 2 builds when played correctly.

You seem interested in brawling so IMO the best brawler in here is either the GHR-5N (MPL boat) or the Summoner (streak/SRM boat).

That's my 2 cents. GL HF.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

if you wanna challenge, use SMNs

[InspectorG]

Have had some success with a Summoner with 2ERLL, 2ERML. Mobile Poke. Yeah. Not exciting. Might try 3ERLL for IS levels of firepower, 4ERLL seems too hot.

Pull that range and get sneaky. Nascars well enough though.

[Macksheen]

Did very well with the summoner, but the beauty of the Omni is once you get something that works for you, you replicate it on all 3 chassis.