99 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Paul,regarding weapons:

The fix is to convergence. Cycling weapons through the nerf chipper only changes what gets boated to blast someone with that alpha-strike of doom, instead of fixing the problem- being able to instantly noscope snapshot someone for maximum damage to the pixel of choice.

Binary convergence. I'll even quote the original PTS topic here, it's really that simple:

Quote

Convergence focuses on a point at maximum range unless pointing at a locked target in LOS.

Information becomes ammunition (or rather, a lack of wasting it.).

Heck, you can even make that "a locked target with data" (ie, a paperdoll readout) if you want to. Guns fire for full damage. They don't randomly cone-of-fire. They just no longer perfectly converge to the exact spot for maximum concentration of damage unless you get the target doritoed, if not targeting data'ed- because they'll instead be firing to converge on a default long-distance point vs. the precise range of the target.

http://mwomercs.com/...42#entry4690642 if you want to read the old archived topic. It got a huge response. It's still a really,really simple change to fix the real problem- because your solution would have just shifted us back to PPC/AC alpha-blasters instead of lasers.

Please, focus on fixing the problem rather than breaking weapons.

[ChronoBear]

Its a sad day. The FPS Laservomit twich crowd wins again...

[wanderer]

You'd have simply seen the l33t turn back to PPC/AC mode.

Lasers were just simply the best way to plant large amounts of damage in one spot.

If they're nerfed, it would go to the weapons that don't need lock time to get precision damage- that's PPC/AC/Gauss.

Again, that's a cycle of weapon nerfs that never addresses the core issue.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

ChronoBear, on 06 November 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

Its a sad day. The FPS Laservomit twich crowd wins again...

Wanderer has the right of it.

The issue isn't the laserbarf or twitch kiddy crowd.

It's about being able to cram large amounts of damage onto a single component. Right now, lasers are just the most tonnage/damage efficient at it.

[BigBucket]

Agreed, liked, and tweeted to Russ. Thanks for sharing!

https://twitter.com/...849552408567808

[Mad Porthos]

Hey OP, wanderer. Just like you I thought convergence the answer at one time. Argued it in chatrooms, occasional developer forum etc. Turned a few fellow unit members sick of my commentary and preaching. I also put alot on to Konivings posts onsame, but somewhere out there I was referred to an early dev video recorded by a mwo fan in beta, perhaps a peripheral NGNG video where convergence is mentioned as solution to alpha, pinpoint meta and pop tarting. One of the devs explains they cant do varying convergence and those asking the question try to insist -probe deeper on topic, only to be told it is an engine limitation.

My source for this was personally viewing it when this was a hot topic, concern for me and remembering it since, due to annoyance EVERYTIME I LOOK AT THE PINPOINT SKILL. Them stating that pin point is eventually up for replacement seems indicative that this remains a hard limitation of the engine, regardless of numerous improvements in netcode since those ancient times.

[Kraftwerkedup]

ChronoBear, on 06 November 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

Its a sad day. The FPS Laservomit twich crowd wins again...

Im gonna say it right here. Right now.

I only use laservomit. Ive always only used laservomit. I lub the wub. I have almost 2 million XP in my Wubshee, ive played over 5,000 matches (im an alt btw), ive got my 1% tag..

I WANT MY LASERS TO MISS. I WANT A CONVERGENCE SYSTEM.

I dont want to have PP pixel damage at 700m because "quirks" and have a 5:1 KDR. I want Battletech. I want a challenge. I dont want to be labelled a "Twitch Kid" because I lub the wub. I dont want to play Counterstrike Call of Mechs. I want to play Battletech.

I didnt sign up to play MechQuest: A point and click adventure.

Take my laservomit from me PGI I beg you. Just please god dont do it with "ghost" mechanics.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 06 November 2015 - 08:49 PM.

[Kraftwerkedup]

And we know its "hard" Russ.

Hire someone.

If Gaijin can do it, so can you. Its 2016 buddy, get on LinkedIn, find you someone to create a convergence system. We know you cant do it with the staff you have.

Please. Please save MWO: A Battletech game, and push this franchise forward. We lack so many things the franchise always had or had in recent incarnations (or mods... MW LL) at least do one thing other than "Unseen" that we've never seen before...a real aiming system that acts like a Mech Sim should.

We all know that putting all your shots where you want is a problem and has always been a problem. Thats a design choice. I know the CryEngine sucks for that, I know it takes up bandwidth, I know it makes packet loss even that much worse, I know it causes lag, I know its hard on the CPU, I know its hard on RAM, but please, please, for the love of all things holy...if you never do anything else right again PGI, do the one thing that all Mechwarrior games have missed, and realize that mechs dont (AND CANT) fire all their weapons into pixels.

You tried, it was buggy, it causes other problems, that was years ago, I know you dont want to open that code up again because of the ripples it could send through all the other code...but seriously weve been around this tree for TWO YEARS.

Its time to come to grips with reality and start working on this. Even if its a hackjob, if it accomplishes half of what it could, it will be a vast improvement.

Anything, even "reticule shake" when running (since you know, in Battletech when you run, its harder to aim, just like in ANY OTHER FPS EVER) would go a long way...

The reticule shakes when you jump, it just doesnt move where the weapons go, same with being hit...you fix that...you fix MWO.

I remember in MW3 being "juggled" by AC2 armed Annihilators...it was awesome. You can do this PGI. I believe in you! (I dont but...hail mary's are hail mary's)

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 06 November 2015 - 08:57 PM.

[Khobai]

we dont even need a "convergence" system per say.

virtually ANY game mechanic that splits up damage would work better than nothing. cuz nothing is what we have now.

for example a mechanic that redistributes a portion of damage (say 25%) outward towards arms/legs could work. it would make arms/legs absorb a bigger portion of damage like theyre supposed to.

PGI has so many different options for mechanics that split up damage. Theres just no excuse for them not employing at least one of them.

Edited by Khobai, 06 November 2015 - 09:00 PM.

[Kraftwerkedup]

Really anything at this point...I dont want to do the "Clan ER PPC trick" and just splash damage to other locations but id even take that at this point, since its pretty straight forward.

Reticule shake based on how fast youre moving? Like in a Tank Sim? Move faster its harder to aim? Stand still it goes away? You never stand still in MWO, it would be a blanket nerf to everyones accuracy which makes things a hell of alot easier on everyone. Balance doesnt have to be so precise. If no one can put 60+ damage into a pixel, you dont have to worry as much about the Master Race of laservomiters, or PPCers, or Poptarters or whatever the flavor of the week of pixel perfect damage is.

If you ask yourself WHY we had all the meta Master Races weve had, its invariably, its because thats how you put the most damage into a pixel most efficiently.

LRMs when spread was low and ECM was low, mostly went to CT. Then PPCs were fast and you could boat alot of them. Then you could poptart with ACs and PPCs to get around ghost heat. Now its laservomit.

There will always be the best way to put damage into a pixel, unless you never let people put damage into a pixel again unless in a narrow set of circumstances, that puts the player at risk, proportional to the reward.

Poptarts, Dual Gauss, Dakka, Laser Vomit, LRM5 spam, it all revolves around PP damage...you have to fix that or we'll chase the damned cat around the tree for another two years. We've been doing it for a 20 year old franchise already...everyone wants to put as much damage as possible into one location because thats how you kill mechs.

You have to take that away from people, or else itll never change...

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 06 November 2015 - 09:08 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Khobai, on 06 November 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

we dont even need a "convergence" system per say.

virtually ANY game mechanic that splits up damage would work better than nothing. cuz nothing is what we have now.

for example a mechanic that redistributes a portion of damage (say 25%) outward towards arms/legs could work. it would make arms/legs absorb a bigger portion of damage like theyre supposed to.

PGI has so many different options for mechanics that split up damage. Theres just no excuse for them not employing at least one of them.

Just going to throw out there that having 25% of your damage go outwards to components near by is pretty terrible to anyone who already spreads damage, especially if they are running an XL engine or are a light mech who needs their legs.

Just think of if you are in something such as a Black Knight running an XL. You go and shield with your arm and absorb a full laser alpha of *for the sake of simple math* 40 damage. 10 points of damage just went to your side torso which you are trying to protect. You take a hit right to the CT and your side torso takes another 10 points of damage. You get shot in the leg and your side torso once again takes 10 damage.

No matter where you get hit your side torso takes damage unless its a headshot. If it gets in its RIP to XL engines.

[Kraftwerkedup]

It would though totally save you from getting back shotted to the LT/RT by an ACH and dying instantly though...since it would spread to arms and the CTR.

Anytime I catch someone slipping and they dont see me and theyre in even a remotely XL friendly mech I shoot for a side torso, since its more likely to one shot kill than a CTR, that has alot more IS to go through, and people learned not to put ammo in their CT a long time ago.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 06 November 2015 - 09:13 PM.

[Mystere]

I say no to splash damage.

Either we get a convergence mechanic, or MWO should be shut down for good.

[Khobai]

Quote

Just going to throw out there that having 25% of your damage go outwards to components near by is pretty terrible to anyone who already spreads damage, especially if they are running an XL engine or are a light mech who needs their legs.

25% was just an example

the actual % could vary from mech to mech. obviously larger mechs need to distribute damage more than smaller mechs.

Quote

I say no to splash damage.

Either we get a convergence mechanic, or MWO should be shut down for good.

If a convergence mechanic makes your shots fire wildly and hit random locations (or not hit at all) thats even worse than splash damage because it has the added downsides of being random and having a chance of completely missing the target. RNG has no place in this game.

The advantage of a damage distribution mechanic is that its entirely non-random. It doesnt make your shots hit random locations or randomly miss the target. All damage is accounted for. A damage distribution mechanic is also way easier to implement into the game and can be patched inside one month... whereas PGI has not figured out how to make convergence work for 3 years.

But again we just need some kindve mechanic added to the game to combat convergence. It doesnt matter what it is. As long as it works. Anything is better than nothing.

Edited by Khobai, 06 November 2015 - 09:21 PM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 06 November 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

If a convergence mechanic makes your shots fire wildly and random locations (or not hit at all) thats even worse than splash damage because it has the added downsides of being random and having a chance of completely missing the target.

The advantage of a damage distribution mechanic is that its entirely non-random. It doesnt make your shots hit random locations or randomly miss the target. All damage is accounted for. A damage distribution mechanic is also way easier to implement into the game and can be implemented inside one month... whereas PGI has not figured out how to make convergence work for 3 years.

The convergence mechanic I and others have been espousing is nowhere even close to random. In fact, I am pretty sure you already know about it. As such I am surprised you even mentioned the word "random".




It makes more sense than lasers doing splash damage.

[xe N on]

They just need to add mechanics every other FPS game has since 1980:

- recoil of ballistic weapons
- weapon bobbing (only very low amount) at movement at higher then 25% of max speed and if the mech accelerates or breaks.

Recoil would prevent high alpha strikes with ACs an Lasers.
A little bit weapon bobbing would make peek-a-boo with lasers at long distance more challanging since it would spread damage much more.

[One Medic Army]

Mad Porthos, on 06 November 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:

Hey OP, wanderer. Just like you I thought convergence the answer at one time. Argued it in chatrooms, occasional developer forum etc. Turned a few fellow unit members sick of my commentary and preaching. I also put alot on to Konivings posts onsame, but somewhere out there I was referred to an early dev video recorded by a mwo fan in beta, perhaps a peripheral NGNG video where convergence is mentioned as solution to alpha, pinpoint meta and pop tarting. One of the devs explains they cant do varying convergence and those asking the question try to insist -probe deeper on topic, only to be told it is an engine limitation.

My source for this was personally viewing it when this was a hot topic, concern for me and remembering it since, due to annoyance EVERYTIME I LOOK AT THE PINPOINT SKILL. Them stating that pin point is eventually up for replacement seems indicative that this remains a hard limitation of the engine, regardless of numerous improvements in netcode since those ancient times.

Actually, I believe it's a conflict with HSR. Not having all the guns aimed at the same point causes the HSR to do a hugely increased number of calculations or some such.

We still might be able to have sway, or a varying convergence distance though.

Edited by One Medic Army, 06 November 2015 - 09:47 PM.

[sycocys]

Where is this information coming from that we are losing the laser changes in the PTS?

nvm, the other thread popped up.

Edited by sycocys, 06 November 2015 - 09:55 PM.

[Mystere]

One Medic Army, on 06 November 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

Actually, I believe it's a conflict with HSR. Not having all the guns aimed at the same point causes the HSR to do a hugely increased number of calculations or some such.

We still might be able to have sway, or a varying convergence distance though.

I say fixed convergence with distance set by player in the MechLab is a good place to start.

[Ezekeel666]

wanderer, on 06 November 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

Paul,regarding weapons:

The fix is to convergence. Cycling weapons through the nerf chipper only changes what gets boated to blast someone with that alpha-strike of doom, instead of fixing the problem- being able to instantly noscope snapshot someone for maximum damage to the pixel of choice.

Binary convergence. I'll even quote the original PTS topic here, it's really that simple:



Heck, you can even make that "a locked target with data" (ie, a paperdoll readout) if you want to. Guns fire for full damage. They don't randomly cone-of-fire. They just no longer perfectly converge to the exact spot for maximum concentration of damage unless you get the target doritoed, if not targeting data'ed- because they'll instead be firing to converge on a default long-distance point vs. the precise range of the target.

http://mwomercs.com/...42#entry4690642 if you want to read the old archived topic. It got a huge response. It's still a really,really simple change to fix the real problem- because your solution would have just shifted us back to PPC/AC alpha-blasters instead of lasers.

Please, focus on fixing the problem rather than breaking weapons.

I like that idea. Game needs some mechanic to spread damage, no question, and this suggestions avoids adding randomness which should always be avoided for a skill based game. I also like that it makes sense from a realism point of view.

However I am not convinced that it will be enough. Pressing 'r' before shooting is not hard. Maybe if one has to wait for the targeting data it will actually add enough delay to have some effect.

This mechanic is definitely worth testing and it should be included in the next PTR so players can see how it feels in practise.