84 replies to this topic

[RustyBolts]

I have spent the last few months jumping from faction to faction doing a tour of all the factions. I stayed with each faction until I reached level 6 of loyalty. I also kept a record of my matches during this time to track my progress. Once I compiled all the data, I was a little surprised at what I found. Below are the highest numbers from each faction.

IS Factions…….Score…Kills……Assist…Damage
Liao………………..349…….14……...33………2057
Steiner……………666……..7……….33………2451
Kurita……………..425…….12………31………2562
Marik……………..384…….11………30………2422
Davion……………347……..9……….26………2083
Rasalhague…….599…….10………34………2316

Wolf……………….457……..7……….24……..1449
Smoke Jaguar…527……..9……….30……..2442
Ghost Bear…….411………8……….24……..2176
Falcon……………415……..12………38……..1739

I got my highest score, kills and damage as IS and my highest Assist with Clan. So this got me curious as to what the averages were for each faction. The below are all the scores averaged for each faction to give me a per match average.

IS Factions……..Score…………….Kills……………….Assist……………Damage
Liao…………………286………………..7…………………..19………………..1564
Steiner……………361………………..5……………………24………………..1792
Kurita……………..311………………..9……………………20………………..1854
Marik……………..262………………..6……………………20………………..1596
Davion……………234………………..4……………………19………………..1321
Rasalhague…….280………………..4……………………21…………………1382

Clan Factions..Score…………….Kills………………..Assist……………Damage
Wolf……………….237………………..4…………….………14………………..1144
Smoke Jaguar…272………………..5…………………….18………………..1249
[Ghost Bear…….257…………………5…………………….15…….………..1272
Falcon……………256…………………4…………………….29………………...1183

As my curiosity increased, I decided to do an IS vs Clan comparison instead of a faction vs faction comparison. Below are the results of averaging each faction score to do a IS vs Clan comparison.

Factions………..Score…………….Kills……………….Assist…………….Damage
IS……………………289………………..6……………………21…………………1585
Clan……………….256………………..5……………………19…………………1212

After seeing these numbers, my curiosity raised even more. If the Clans are so overpowered, how am I doing better as an IS instead of Clan? Maybe it had to do with the Clans having more armor so they can soak up more damage? Maybe it was because the Clans spent more time attacking and they did not get as many kills and as much damage? So I decided to see if it was based on Invasion or Counter Attack/Defend. So I went back and counted up all the matches and determined by a % on what the ratio was between Invasion and Counter Attack/Defend for each faction. I expected to find the Clans attacking more and the IS defending more.

IS Factions……..Invasion……….CA/Defend
Liao………………….55%................45%
Steiner……………..63%...............37%
Kurita……………….71%...............29%
Marik……………….58%...............42%
Davion……………..64%...............35%
Rasalhague………53%...............47%

Clan Factions….Invasion……..CA/Defend
Wolf………………..54%...............46%
Smoke Jaguar….70%...............30%
Ghost Bear………62%...............38%
Falcon……………..52%...............48%

I could not determine that there was a correlation since all of the factions spent more time attacking than counter attack/defend. Even when I compare IS vs Clan, the numbers are almost equal.

Factions………..Invasion………..CA/Defend
IS…………………….59%................41%
Clan………………..57%................43%

So even after crunching the numbers I still cannot explain why I do better in the IS than as a Clan.

On a separate note I also had several observations during my tour.

1) Almost all IS Pugs think that all Clans are pre-made teams when they are from the same faction. They will even argue with you over it.

2) Clans do not have a range advantage when it comes to ERLL (911 Range (Mech specific)) vs Clan (831 Range).

3) IS Pugs believe in LRMS in CW, like Clans believe in Laser Vomit. LRMs in CW work more for the Clans and not IS, due to the amount of ECM that Clans have. However, you will see constant crying in chat/VOIP about how the team needs to maintain locks from the IS Pugs.

4) Almost all IS think Clans are OP and almost all Clans think IS is over quirked.

5) Clans are not OP. Team work is OP. Clan pugs coordinate usually in TS/VOIP. IS pugs just drop into a match and mob around more.

6) Artic Cheetahs are the most powerful mech in the game.

7) IS Pugs insult their teams more than Clan pugs.

8) IS Pugs are obsessed with Omega in Counter Attack to the point of proclaiming victory because they killed omega, then proceed to say how FFF’d up PGI is since the game did not end with Omega being destroyed.

9) There was one IS faction that I swear was full of most arrogant crybabies in MWO. Most of them whined and cried in Chat about almost everything. Worst faction I was with and do not want to go back to it. It was unbelievable how bad it was.

Edited by RustyBolts, 29 November 2015 - 02:38 PM.

[Tarogato]

May I ask what your dropdecks were for both Clan and IS, and what builds were on your mechs?

[RustyBolts]

I have a tailored drop deck for each map whether it is defend or attack. But mostly for IS it was:

Attack--TDR-5SS (65) (7MPL), TDR-5S-T(65)(8ML),HBK-4P(50)(9ML), BJ-1X(45)(8ML)=225 Tons
Defend--BLR-1S (85) (4ERLL), TDR-5S(65) (4LL), TDR-5SS (65) (7MPL), PNT-10K (35) (2ERPPC)=250 Tons

For mostly Clan it was:

Attack--EBJ-Prime (65)(2ERLL, 5ML), EBJ-B (65)(2ERLL, 5ML), HBR-Prime(65) (Gauss 4ML) ACH-Prime(30)(6SPL)=225
Defend--EBJ-Prime (65)(2ERLL, 5ML), EBJ-B (65)(2ERLL, 5ML), HBR-Prime(65) (Gauss 4ML) ACH-C (30)(4 MPL)=225

Edited by RustyBolts, 29 November 2015 - 03:11 PM.

[Kael Posavatz]

This is a very interesting data-set you have presented us with.

On possible source for your IS bias is the fact that there are 50% more IS factions.

Assuming approximately the same amount of play time per faction, it stands to reason that your scores would improve as you cycle through each side.

So the two questions I ask are:

1) Did you progress through all the factions on one side before doing those on the second, or alternate?

2) Regardless of pattern, were the Clan Factions and IS Factions played in the following orders?

Clans: Wolf, Falcon, Bear, Jaguar
IS: Davion, Marik, FRR, Liao, Kurita, Steiner


And one follow-up

When you took this tour did you do it as an independent, or as a member of an aligned unit?

[Kuritaclan]

RustyBolts, on 29 November 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

4) Almost all IS think Clans are OP and almost all Clans think IS is over quirked.
...

8) IS Pugs are obsessed with Omega in Counter Attack to the point of proclaiming victory because they killed omega, then proceed to say how FFF’d up PGI is since the game did not end with Omega being destroyed.

Since this Auntum Event i'm running Steiner for the mechbays, and oh dear lord it is painfull. Those pugs. I loved to pug on clan side (all clans i majored and have spend much time in wolf). But on IS it is Hell so far. Maybee it is the event. But I could be wrong. Anyway.

And just on a sidenote. I tracked my cw matches a pretty long time the highest damage counts i saw so war with over 4k damage on IS Dropdecks, while clans mostly end up in the 3.5k region if they are very high. Don't know if it says something

Edited by Kuritaclan, 29 November 2015 - 04:48 PM.

[Aiden Skye]

I've been playing CW for clan Ghostbear for months grinding to Galaxy Commander. I usually average around 2k damage a match. Switched to IS this week for the arrival of the marauder.

Dropped with 2 Catapult K2's a Jester and a raven 2x. (Not even battlemasters, stalkers, thunderbolts / the other meta which I do not own). My damage was in the 3 games I've played so far. Just around 2k per match. Meanwhile my teammates are having a discussion after they died about not being able to do anything against clan mechs and never winning against clans in 2 of those matches I played. Uh.....huh.

Lets ignore the fact that we played superpassive, throwing away opportunity after opportunity to deal the enemy a decisive blow. Lets ignore the fact that we had 5 mechs chasing 1 squirrel in the back field every time the enemy pushed. Lets just sit there and discuss...or better yet lets sit there, hold hands and sing kumbaya and hopefully the enemy will drop their arms and sing with us!!

[RustyBolts]

Quote

On possible source for your IS bias is the fact that there are 50% more IS factions.

I thought so also, that is why I averaged IS vs Clan

Quote

So the two questions I ask are:

1) Did you progress through all the factions on one side before doing those on the second, or alternate?

2) Regardless of pattern, were the Clan Factions and IS Factions played in the following orders?

Clans: Wolf, Falcon, Bear, Jaguar
IS: Davion, Marik, FRR, Liao, Kurita, Steiner

1) I alternated.
2) Pattern was: Wolf, Jaguar, Liao, Marik, Ghost Bear, Steiner, Kurita, Falcon, FRR, Davion.

Quote

And one follow-up

When you took this tour did you do it as an independent, or as a member of an aligned unit?

Combination sort of. I would log into central Comm and drop with teams at times, but most of the drops were solo.

Quote

Since this Auntum Event i'm running Steiner for the mechbays, and oh dear lord it is painfull. Those pugs. I loved to pug on clan side (all clans i majored and have spend much time in wolf). But on IS it is Hell so far. Maybee it is the event. But I could be wrong. Anyway.

All data was done prior to this event. It just took me most of the weekend to compile it.

Edited by RustyBolts, 29 November 2015 - 05:05 PM.

[vocifer]

That's a very nice job, sir! Thanks for sharing this data.

From my experience in dropping unit/solo ^ IS/Clans, I think I can add some statements:

1. Your damage score is higher against more skilled players, who can torso twist and not letting you pop them by just coring ct only.

2. You do less damage when your teammates are high skilled. If all team is at same skill level, the damage spread is even, and if you're alone among t5-s you get all the cookies.

3. Kills and assists do very bad at representing your battle effectiveness. Damage is the most suitable parameter so far.


And btw,

RustyBolts, on 29 November 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

9) There was one IS faction...
Steiner……………666

Сoincidence?

Edited by vocifer, 29 November 2015 - 05:34 PM.

[MaxFool]

The most important thing in getting high damage, is that your team mates must suck. If everyone does over 1k damage, you are not getting anywhere near 3k damage yourself. I'd bet that your win percentage was much lower on IS, and your team mates did lower damage, hence there was a chance for you to do more damage and kills.

[Tarogato]

RustyBolts, on 29 November 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

Attack--TDR-5SS (65) (7MPL), TDR-5S-T(65)(8ML),HBK-4P(50)(9ML), BJ-1X(45)(8ML)=225 Tons

Sorry for being off-topic, but you could improve your performance by altering your builds slightly. When you have more that 6 medium lasers you incur ghost heat and must split your alphas. Instead, mix in some medium pulse lasers, which will allow you to straight up alphastrike without ghost heat - more damage in a shorter period of time. Here's a 4P build that does this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c918a0c3e74f9c6 Here's a BJ-1X that does this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...15d5c7d1fae93af And here's one of many Tallman builds that does this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bad5bf938bcf396

[vandalhooch]

Kuritaclan, on 29 November 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

And just on a sidenote. I tracked my cw matches a pretty long time the highest damage counts i saw so war with over 4k damage on IS Dropdecks, while clans mostly end up in the 3.5k region if they are very high. Don't know if it says something

Most likely it was IS XL versus clan XL.

Can't get additional damage as a clanner when the IS mech dies to a lost ST.

[DakoneAzura]

so wait you hate lrms that makes you a LRM hater! Jk

but in all reality how does having lrm racks help clanners ? IS Missles are more stronger than the clans which is why they have more ecm opportunities. All I ask of people is make sure to use the R button so we know who is attacking you and if I have lrms I will be sure to send them over there. If not then don't complain about me having lrms because you didn't target...Thats all I ever say to them. Lrms have a use to say they don't is a understatement. Matter of fact I had games when having a few missile boats made a huge difference in a cw.

Edited by DakoneAzura, 29 November 2015 - 10:57 PM.

[PFC Carsten]

Interesting data - thank you very much for the effort compiling it!

vocifer, on 29 November 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

1. Your damage score is higher against more skilled players, who can torso twist and not letting you pop them by just coring ct only.
2. You do less damage when your teammates are high skilled. If all team is at same skill level, the damage spread is even, and if you're alone among t5-s you get all the cookies.
3. Kills and assists do very bad at representing your battle effectiveness. Damage is the most suitable parameter so far.

I can add the following aspects

- IS mechs with XL (which you normally shouldn't do!) pop already when one ST is gone, so lower damage-to-kill required with your average PUG group who do bring XL engines also in heavier mechs
- OTOH, IS dropdecks are potentially heavier, thus more internal structure and more armor, thus more potential damage to farm
- Clanners on average more experienced, thus more able, than IS, because of monetary requirements for own mechs (i.e. you can afford IS mechs earlier than clan mechs).

Might all play a role.

[Appogee]

I've played both sides frequently, too. My observations:

* The most important deciding factor in any match is "which team has a group of 6 or more".
* It's overall easier to win in a Clan team than an IS team. This is probably because...
* IS overall* has far worse PUGs than Clan...
- They don't understand the game rules (esp Counter Attack) and you just can't tell them.
- They are less skilled at positioning, aiming, and core skills.
- They bring worse Mechs - esp LRM boats - and complain about not getting locks.
- Many will lose all their Mechs by the midpoint of the match, screwing over the team.
* Davion PUGs are in a category of their own.
* While no-one should bring trial Mechs to CW, Clan trial Mechs are worse than IS trial Mechs.
* A wave of Arctic Cheetahs can completely change the outcome. IS doesn't have anything like a Streakcrow to counter.






* I'm not saying all IS PUGs are bad. I am saying the frequency of IS PUGs being bad is much higher than for Clans.

Edited by Appogee, 30 November 2015 - 02:37 AM.

[Ace Selin]

Ive played all factions too and here are my findings after playing 50 matches for each faction:

Best games.

IS…….…….…….Score…Kills……Assist…Damage
Liao………………...249…….5……....23………1457
Steiner……………234 ……5.......…..17………1122
Kurita……………..325…….4….……19.…….…1204
Marik……………..284…….3….……21….….…1303
Davion……………267…....4….……25…....…1402
Rasalhague…….229….….2…………26………1282

Clans…….….......….Score…Kills……Assist…Damage
Wolf……………….....562…….11………33…….2792
Smoke Jaguar.....…527……..14…..….32……..3054
Ghost Bear…...…...702………8……….29……..3202
Falcon…………...…456……..10………32…….2994

Averages

IS Factions……..Score…………….Kills……………….Assist……………Damage
Liao…………………192………………..2…………………..11………………..1132
Steiner……………202………………..3……………………09………………..992
Kurita……………..187………………..2……………………12………………..911
Marik……………..156………………..3……………………11………………..1021
Davion……………204………………..4……………………12………………..1100
Rasalhague…….228………….……..3……………………10…………………1045

Clan Factions.....Score……….…….Kills………………..Assist……………Damage
Wolf……………….340…………..….8 …………….………22……………..1699
Smoke Jaguar…..422……………….8…………………….19……………..2055
[Ghost Bear……..399………….……5…………………….18…….………..2146
Falcon……………450………………6…………………….19……………...1742

As can bee seen in my experience Clan mechs do more damage and get far more kills, yet im far more experienced in the use of my IS mechs and 2 of the 4 Clan mechs used in CW were trials too.

So my anecdotal experience trumps the OPS anecdotal experience.

Edited by Ace Selin, 30 November 2015 - 03:50 AM.

[Kuritaclan]

@Ace Selin In your case maybe, but I don't see that it confirms something. It only shows that in your case you may play for whatever reason better in clan mechs. That may be more save since you go for poke, or you change more often position since you have a bit more speed or something else.

Your numbers looking awfull compared to each other. Sorry about that. But since i started playing IS with the event - i had in this small time a game with 12 Kills 12 Assists 2420 Damage with 380 Score what a shame that it was a lost game. So i don't know what was your nemesis with IS Mechs. And my highest Damage on Clan was so far only 2711. Not that far away for just "getting started" with IS. Look up how "badly" pugs play me included which can be seen in the first half of the match, and how "bad" even groups act what the last part shows of only this single match.


Oh and by the way i only drop with some Thunderbolts, Catphracts mixed in and Ravens - those are the only Mechs i have Mastered on IS and can play. So i drop with an undervalue Dropdeck with "only" 235t.

PFC Carsten, on 30 November 2015 - 02:19 AM, said:

- Clanners on average more experienced, thus more able, than IS, because of monetary requirements for own mechs (i.e. you can afford IS mechs earlier than clan mechs).

I can't sign this. There are on both sides Bobs and Pros. Lately an elite founder busted the first wave, cause he stopped his mech in a bottleneck and blocked the push. (played on IS side) Even people who should have experience on mass do play stupid.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 01 December 2015 - 01:52 AM.

[vocifer]

Ace Selin, on 30 November 2015 - 03:48 AM, said:

As can bee seen in my experience Clan mechs do more damage and get far more kills, yet im far more experienced in the use of my IS mechs and 2 of the 4 Clan mechs used in CW were trials too.

Could you tell us what your drop decks and builds are? I wonder why there is such a difference in stats...

Edited by vocifer, 30 November 2015 - 04:45 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

OP, thank you for your effort It seems like you had some fun with switching between factions nad what you found out is very consistent with what many others already somehwo figured out.

My observations and experiences:
1) IS pugs are difficult to handle. Poor performance, very angry and many don't really know how to play their Mechs. This is bundled with bunch of very skilled players who can do much more with their Mechs that Clans do simply by putting quirks to good use. Those players are not many though and don't really show in agregate numbers that much.

2) IS ERLL is the single most OP weapon in game. General IS energy range quirks work well for every weapon except for this one. Even on 1400 meters IS Mechs can rip apart clanners within 20 seconds, no matter the Mech. Also many mechs have heat quirks, making these things even more dangerous. It is IS ERLL that makes me want to farm some IS faction rank after I am finished in CJF. This thing is brutal.

3) Damage of Clanners and IS isn't comparable because there are different mechanics at play. Clanners are either built for damage and then have little to no suistain, only bursts. Or they can maintain their DPS but hit like a child. Many IS Mechs are also build for bursts (7xMPL Thunderbolt comes to mind) but that thing fires so fast that before clanner's alpha is over it already did its damage and is protecting CT with shield arm. Also, structure quirks for IS Mechs. In practise I think that Clanners have to put out much more damage to kill comparable IS Mech simply because beams have longer duration, ACs aren't pinpoint like IS and so on.

4) Clan pugs have class. Clan Wolf pugs are different from CJF (or CGB) pugs but in every team you feel like you have a place. Wolves use more LRMs or non-meta stuff, CJF is more meta-oriented (and has more planet because of that, ehm... :-D ). Both factions feel like home. When you switch to IS for a week or two for the sake of changing environment, well, the difference feels terrible.

5) Streaks and lights. Clanners never had lights like Embers or Jenners but we had streaks all the time. When light rushes started we had streaks, those proclaimed anti-light weapons. But light rushes happened anyway. Why did the IS light rushes end? Not because of streaks but because of higher HP of objectives and turrets. That got upped and IS lights went down. IS struggles with ACH but it is the same struggle Clanners were exposed to from the very beginning. SSRM2 is more than solid for dealing with ACH but just like with Clan streaks, you can have a dedicated streak boat but if you don't have it at the very moment when lights charge you are screwed. Lasers kill ACH and it will take time for IS players to learn how to handle what clanners had to deal with since the beginning. Light rushes from IS and Clans are absolutely the same.

6) Even though light rushes from IS and Clans are the same in general, Clan light rushes are more dangerous than IS light rushes. Why? Simple. Name me top IS CW units. At least six or seven. Struggling a bit? Now name me six or seven Clan CW units. And now compare those two lists in both size and capabilities. Light rushes require a lot of coordination and skill and Clanners simply have more people to do it. My worst IS light rushes were against KCOM (now Clanners fora while), 228 (again, Clanners), MS (Clanners more than not), VRGD (again switching mercs but Clanners for many weeks too). IS simply doesn't have units that do light rushes.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 30 November 2015 - 06:10 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

RustyBolts, on 29 November 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

9) There was one IS faction that I swear was full of most arrogant crybabies in MWO. Most of them whined and cried in Chat about almost everything. Worst faction I was with and do not want to go back to it. It was unbelievable how bad it was.

Now you have my interrest piqued. What faction is this? We are currently on tour through the factions ourselves and until now our worst experience was with the Liao.
No teamwork, no coms, PUGs are more prone to go soloderping off somewhere (Normally you have one each match if you have bad luck in other factions. With Liao we were guaranteed to have one each round and up to 3 in a bad round). These were coincidentally the ones consistently ending up with under 200 damage over 4 mechs and sometimes even bottoming out at under 100 damage for 4 mechs (The lowest Ive seen to date for an active player who dropped with all 4 mechs and did not eject 3 times was 15 damage... what did he do? Ram the opponents and whack them over the head with cotton wads?)

Please tell me your observation was for Liao and not a faction which we still have before us which we still have to work our way thorugh?

Incidentally, If you still have all statistics available. It would be interresting to see how many CW matches you needed to play to reach rank 6 per faction and what the average damage the teams did you were playing in. Less matches means overall possibility of winning is higher. Higher overall damage from your team means more skilled/communicative/disciplined players in the faction.

[takkom]

clan pugs would prolly do better if clan lrm weighted 300% more so that less players would be encouraged to fields them and hide in the back like its voiding their armor