35 replies to this topic

[Vegalas]

I am doing this as a quick writeup so I'll try be brief. I'm tired of playing matches where clan mechs are in equal numbers to IS mechs and there fore one could assume that they're equally good in general but in fact they're not.

Every seasoned player knows that the clanners are slightly OP especially at longer ranges. In general IS players are told to push and get into close quarters do damage and avoid trading shots which in a nutshell means that IS players are required to play more sophisticated. This part of the reason I don't like to attack as IS since the mechs rarely have any advantage at all. The chances vary between maps but in general IS is the worse attacker. Atleast in my experience. There could be other ways to fix this but this atleast this one is friendly to the lore and common sense.

The idea of lances vs stars

Something like this has been discussed before and I'll bring it up again. According to lore clan mechs form a fighting group of 5 called a star. IS mechs form fighting groups of 4 which are called lances. Strangely, at the moment IS and clanner alike move in lances thanks to PGI's varyingly loose interpretation of lore which I think isn't right for several good reasons.

Having two stars and 3 lances fight in a CW match would change the gameplay entirely. The clanners could be allowed to be a little more buff like they are in lore while IS gets the benefit of having extra two mechs on the battlefield.

In normal arcade matches a team could have 13 players consisting of one clan star and 2 IS lances. In these games IS would also have the numbers advantage while clanners have the stronger mechs. MM could be tweaked so that matches would have the right amount of different weight classes and a team wouldn't fall too short of a certain mech type.

Edited by Vegalas, 08 December 2015 - 01:59 AM.

[Biclor Moban]

Yes, Stars and Lances. But for CW 10 vs. 12 Un-nerf clan mechs.

I only play IS. Got a Madcat last event thats 1st Clan mech I have owned.

Since quick play is mixed 12 vs. 12 seem fine.

[kneuen]

I normally don't post and I am admittedly an average player, but this suggestion is the one I hear most often. Quite simply, it isn't feasible without making the clan mechs so overpowered that solo ques would be entirely clan. Or you would need to eliminate public que entirely because you'd have to wait for IS mechs to appear or vice versa. Many people feel that the waits on public que are too long already. Tweaking the matchmaker would definitely be necessary and we've already seen how that affects wait times on occasion.

Incidentally, your poll seems to be suggesting that public que would be 5 clan mechs vs 4 IS mechs. I'm fairly certain that is not what you intended. I assume you meant 2 lances against one star.

As far as CW is concerned, while 10 vs 12 would certainly be a challenge, it would allow clans/units to take over planets that much faster. IE, an organized unit drops 5 teams simultaneously. That would be 50 players for clans. It would be 60 for inner sphere. While the IS has more players in general, it would be easier to get 50 players together than 60. I can tell you right now, it is a struggle for IS to get even 24 players together at one time for coordinated drops in any given time zone. Add in uncontrollable factors like bad connections and random crashes and it is a miracle sometimes to see even 1 organized team together. Having never played clans, I'm sure they have the same issues, but it never seems to be as clan Wolf and clan Jade Falcon don't seem to be having too much difficulty in advancing their lines. This could be simply because they have more organized units that enjoy playing CW. It would also cause an even greater outcry against the "premade boogeyman."

10 vs 12 games and even public ques would absolutely require clan mechs to be "buffed." Current iterations would be underpowered in facing off against IS mechs in such numbers. However, this would assume that you want to remain in line with lore. There are certainly plenty of players who want to remain loyal to lore, which is fine. If we are trying to play tabletop in video game form, absolutely. From a video game developer's stand point (read: money stand point), you need a game that anyone can jump into any mech and be able to have some fun without reading 18 novels or 6 technical manuals. With the "OP" clan mechs, every beginning player would decide to go with clan mechs simply because they can blast down an opponent faster. There would be fewer IS players and eventually the whole game would be clan. In addition, because damage and kills would be easier to obtain in clan mechs, there would be no incentive to go IS other than lore or friends. I believe that PGI wants a balance so that each player feels that they want to spend money for either side without knowing they will be outgunned or outclassed from the outset. After all, if you know your opponent has a faster, more agile, more heavily armed and equally armored mech as you, why wouldn't you just buy his/her mech rather than stay in your own?

A more feasible but entirely unlikely and distasteful option for CW would be to change drop decks to reflect the difference in clan/IS technology. Yes, it already exists, but is it enough? On an individual basis, certainly not. Tactically, it can make a difference IF one side is more organized than another. It has been my personal experience that teamplay makes the game in CW (as it should). However, if both sides are equally organized and skilled, the technology of their mechs is what makes the difference. Ultimately, the mechs on both sides need to be balanced in one way or another in order for all current game modes to be playable for the majority of players and for PGI to continue to thrive.

In closing, let me say that I am not trying to start a fight. These are simply the reasons I believe that this idea has not been implemented.

Thank you.

[Biclor Moban]

kneuen, on 07 December 2015 - 01:01 AM, said:

Incidentally, your poll seems to be suggesting that public que would be 5 clan mechs vs 4 IS mechs. I'm fairly certain that is not what you intended. I assume you meant 2 lances against one star.

Thank you.

I don't think he meant that either.

I think he was going for one group thats Stars and one group thats lances (10 vs. 12 again).
Possibly he meant each team would have one Star and one Lance making it 9 vs.9.

Both, while interesting seem a bit pointless in Quick play.

People love the under dog and many people are pretty competitive so saying all/most people would pilot Clan mechs so they would have easy win, IMHO doesn't hold water.
I like to win and I have piloted trail clan mechs to easy wins. I have found it unfullfilling so I have never purchased a Clan Mech, that and those things aren't cheap

Edited by Biclor Moban, 07 December 2015 - 01:43 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Well - CW 10 vs 12 why not.... give it a try
for quick play... who cares?

about the clan buff.... have to abstain so no.... any clan buff that effect all clan mechs the same is as bad as any clan nerf that effects all clan mechs.

PGI need to create MK.1 Omni Mechs then not one second before we can start talking about clan vs is balancing.... otherwise its the same old broken record...
your TimberWolf and our Orion - but your Stalker (*add quirkmonster her) and Nova - but Hunchback IIC and Vindicator.... bla bla... you can't compare what is not even.
When 3 Novas are as effective as 2 TimberWolfs and 1 Awesome is more effective as a single Black Knight - we can start talking about IS vs Clan Balancing

Edited by Karl Streiger, 07 December 2015 - 01:47 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 07 December 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

Well - CW 10 vs 12 why not.... give it a try
for quick play... who cares?

anyone not playing a clanmech?

if you deisgn MWO mechbalance around a 10vs12 clan vs Is, then this only works when clanemchs are better. Which then brings up the question why someone should not use a clanmech in the solo/grp q. because there is just one pilot one mech. So unless you would divide the public queues also into C/IS you will have a negative balance impact on these queues. And since the majority of players is not in CW, I would say, the majority cares.

And generally, yes before ther eis no interchassis balance withiong clanners and within IS all these adjustements just mean the imbalanced metachassis stay the top choice.

Edited by Lily from animove, 07 December 2015 - 02:10 AM.

[Hawk_eye]

For solo/group you could take weight into account.

Say, matchmaker puts a weight limit on each 12-man team (similar to the drop-deck weight limit)

Now IS mechs count for what they weight, Clan mechs count for weight x 1.2, thus a Nova would count for 60 tons and a Dire would count for 120 tons of that.
This would _still_ give you basically a 12 vs. 10 match, but in weight ratio instead of numbers of players.

Of course, that would probably increase MM-time, so is probably a no-go.

Edit:
Come to think of it, for solo play, with clans on both sides, that probably wouldn´t work so good.

Disregard the above.

Edited by Antecursor Venatus, 07 December 2015 - 02:47 AM.

[Vegalas]

Biclor Moban, on 07 December 2015 - 01:32 AM, said:

kneuen, on 07 December 2015 - 01:01 AM, said:

Incidentally, your poll seems to be suggesting that public que would be 5 clan mechs vs 4 IS mechs. I'm fairly certain that is not what you intended. I assume you meant 2 lances against one star.

Thank you.

I don't think he meant that either.

I think he was going for one group thats Stars and one group thats lances (10 vs. 12 again).
Possibly he meant each team would have one Star and one Lance making it 9 vs.9.

Both, while interesting seem a bit pointless in Quick play.

People love the under dog and many people are pretty competitive so saying all/most people would pilot Clan mechs so they would have easy win, IMHO doesn't hold water.
I like to win and I have piloted trail clan mechs to easy wins. I have found it unfullfilling so I have never purchased a Clan Mech, that and those things aren't cheap

Sorry, I just noticed there was a typo in the poll. I of course meant that normal matches would be 13 vs 13 each team consisting of two lances and one star. I prefer this way because the difference to the player numbers in quickplay games would be marginal and the teams would still have a mixed variety of mechs. You can't have any more clan mechs because a star has five mechs and two units of them would count for the most players in the team.

I agree on the fact that clan mechs are slightly better than IS mechs if you play them right. The IS mechs would have the numbers advantage but I don't think it would be a balance problem. After all the teams would have equal numbers.

Edited by Vegalas, 07 December 2015 - 04:56 AM.

[Vegalas]

kneuen, on 07 December 2015 - 01:01 AM, said:

As far as CW is concerned, while 10 vs 12 would certainly be a challenge, it would allow clans/units to take over planets that much faster. IE, an organized unit drops 5 teams simultaneously. That would be 50 players for clans. It would be 60 for inner sphere. While the IS has more players in general, it would be easier to get 50 players together than 60. I can tell you right now, it is a struggle for IS to get even 24 players together at one time for coordinated drops in any given time zone. Add in uncontrollable factors like bad connections and random crashes and it is a miracle sometimes to see even 1 organized team together. Having never played clans, I'm sure they have the same issues, but it never seems to be as clan Wolf and clan Jade Falcon don't seem to be having too much difficulty in advancing their lines. This could be simply because they have more organized units that enjoy playing CW. It would also cause an even greater outcry against the "premade boogeyman."

10 vs 12 games and even public ques would absolutely require clan mechs to be "buffed." Current iterations would be underpowered in facing off against IS mechs in such numbers. However, this would assume that you want to remain in line with lore. There are certainly plenty of players who want to remain loyal to lore, which is fine. If we are trying to play tabletop in video game form, absolutely. From a video game developer's stand point (read: money stand point), you need a game that anyone can jump into any mech and be able to have some fun without reading 18 novels or 6 technical manuals. With the "OP" clan mechs, every beginning player would decide to go with clan mechs simply because they can blast down an opponent faster. There would be fewer IS players and eventually the whole game would be clan. In addition, because damage and kills would be easier to obtain in clan mechs, there would be no incentive to go IS other than lore or friends. I believe that PGI wants a balance so that each player feels that they want to spend money for either side without knowing they will be outgunned or outclassed from the outset. After all, if you know your opponent has a faster, more agile, more heavily armed and equally armored mech as you, why wouldn't you just buy his/her mech rather than stay in your own?

I think you made some good points but first off I must state that clan mechs are already more favorable for new players. You don't need to tinker as much with them because they're all premade and the weapons are more useful when it comes to trading shots with IS mechs. Sure they have less are armor in general but you still have to get up close with an AC20 to get advantage of that. In some cases even that doesn't work and other options are limited.

On the other hand there are the issues concerning player numbers. I think clan players are fewer in numbers than IS players since clan mechs are harder to get hold of and people don't spend money on them so easily. I don't think having 2 more players on a team would have much of an impact in the number of played CW games.

Xp and damage potentially done in a game are a concern. It's probably needless to point out that clanners already reap the better benefits when it comes to damage and xp gained by it. There are solutions for this however and one of them is to make IS weapons that have an extra c-bill and/or xp bonus on them. This idea has been discussed before and to be honest I wasn't very fond of it. Now I'm starting to see why having such weapons in the game would be an useful asset and it would make playing IS feel a bit more fair.

http://mwomercs.com/...n-poll-updated/


This is a little of the topic though but as far as agility goes clan mechs are definitely not bad at that area despite having a fixed speed on all chassis. After all IS has really nothing to compare with Mist lynx and Shadow cat. Both have redicolous jump jetting capability and on top of that they can utilize their weapons on the move because of their arm flexibility. Sure there's a jump jetting Cicada which has like four lasers on it and then there's the spider. Both look mediocre in comparison. Goofing off in quickplay with Shadow cat is a pleasure while driving the Cicada (L) is a letdown because of a low DPS and not-so-great armor. There are some other examples too where IS mechs seem dwarfed. If a "lazerborn" gets the chance to alpha you first, your pretty much done and well cooked.

Edited by Vegalas, 07 December 2015 - 05:12 AM.

[Kissamies]

Yes, another stars vs lances poll! They won't listen, but I'll vote again anyways. I'm tired to constant nerfs to bring the clan tech down to parity, which is not how it's supposed to be. Clans mechs need to be OP in order to be proper Clan mechs. My current affiliation nonwithstanding (thought to grab some mech bays before they reset the map) I normally play IS and I wouldn't mind trying to beat the better tech with superior numbers. I think Clans are also supposed to favor the heavy class while IS likes mediums more. This could be simulated in CW by having 3 mech drop decks for Clans. Maybe just as an option.

Quick play could be more of a problem. I think it should be kept mixed 12 vs 12, but the MM should try to put equal number clan mechs on both sides. The tonnage multiplier has some promise too, as well as counting the player's tier as one higher. Also a some sort of XP and CBill penalty for using Clan mechs in quick play might be in order to keep them from being too attractive. When they were still just adding the Clan mechs, I suggested that the clans should have a completely different money system, but I guess that would be to complicated.

in short: PGI gib asymmetric balance plz!

[Jaeger Gonzo]

The right number is 10v16.

[Rattazustra]

Unless the entire game's balancing is tailored to match exactly that 12 to 10 ratio, there is no way to easily make it like that. I also don't think that most IS players would like the result. People are whining enough already, even though IS mechs are dramatically superior to clan mechs. A 12vs.10 balancing would benefit the good players much more than the average ones, leading to even more top player dominance. The whine would flood the rivers and make the oceans rise until we all live on a very crowded Mount Kilimanjaro.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Rattazustra, on 14 December 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

(...) even though IS mechs are dramatically superior to clan mechs(...)

trollololo

[PraetorGix]

Vegalas, on 07 December 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

After all IS has really nothing to compare with Mist lynx and Shadow cat. Both have redicolous jump jetting capability and on top of that they can utilize their weapons on the move because of their arm flexibility.

LOL yes plz nerf the incredibly OP Mist Lynx and Shadow Cat a little more XD

[Karl Streiger]

The difference in Clan vs IS were the pilots.... the tech alone was hardly enough to make a difference
a gunnery of 3 vs a gunnery of 4 was the important stuff (not even to mention the gunnery of 2)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 15 December 2015 - 03:59 AM.

[Lichee]

great idea.but PGI will spend more and more time to rebalance.High dps both of is and clan,2 mechs disparity will change the game so much.in fact,a intact dwf can be killed by 3 enmeies within 5sec.

[Vegalas]

Lichee, on 15 December 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

Great idea but PGI will spend more and more time to rebalance. High dps both of is and clan, 2 mechs disparity will change the game so much. In fact, an intact dwf can be killed by 3 enemies within 5 secs.

Then again I'm quite sure that with some viable builds and in a advantageous situation a dwf can take out a mech with 2-3 alphas and I am not referring to lights here. Anyways if the situation proves to be too much for the "mighty" clans then perhaps a reduction in IS drop deck tonnage is in order. There are always multiple solutions for balancing and this is just one of them. I also corrected the post btw.

Cmdr Hurrell, on 14 December 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

LOL yes plz nerf the incredibly OP Mist Lynx and Shadow Cat a little more XD

I think you kind of missed the main idea there. I just pointed out that IS had nothing that would play similar to those mechs which is why I thought it was kind of off topic. Still you can do some amazing things with them that other mechs can't. I remember taking down several mechs in a streak with the Mist Lynx thanks to its jump jets and 3x clan srm 6's. Not sure if lynxie has been nerfed after that but I'm pretty sure IS lights will atleast have a hard time doing anything similar in a 1 vs 2 situation. I'm sure there are better records too.

[Ano]

Paraphrasing from a similar suggestion in another thread: picture the recruiting poster

"Join the inner sphere. Use inferior equipment against a technologically superior enemy with more powerful mechs and weapons. Don't worry though, there'll be lots of other cannon fodder er valued troops alongside you -- in fact enough that in a perfectly balanced game (hah) it will be impossible for two players on your team to score a kill on an enemy mech (don't worry though, you'll probably just die in the first wave, so that takes the pressure off). Join the inner sphere, where life is cheap and your contribution minimal!

PS: this will only even come close to working if there are more people on our side than there are on theirs. Bring your friends or we're all dead."

Only the most committed IS loyalist is likely to find that appealing, IMO.

[Fyrwulf]

I voted no on the 12v10 because I think it should be 16v10 (square company vs binary), but only if all respective abilities are played straight. That means get rid of all the buffs and nerfs, set the weapons and everything else to TT values, and see how that plays out in PTS.

[Karl Streiger]

Fyrwulf, on 17 December 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

I voted no on the 12v10 because I think it should be 16v10 (square company vs binary), but only if all respective abilities are played straight. That means get rid of all the buffs and nerfs, set the weapons and everything else to TT values, and see how that plays out in PTS.

Oh you want to nerf the Clan ER Large Laser and all Clan Pulse Lasers - I'm all ears