45 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

Throwing out an idea here, as I think the weapon ranges, especially PGIs 'maximum range' addition to the weapon mechanic which threw the balance way out of line during the addition the Clans which already had troublesome range and power balance, was a major factor in the balance issues we've had. Please let me know what you think, CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, PLEASE.

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I think a lot of the issue in the fact that we can SHOOT OVER 1000M. LRMs were supposed to be the farthest reaching weapon in the game, but now we have post-1000M energy and ballistics that make fights really insane and people sniping with 3ERLLs out at like 1300M.

IMO we need to refocus this issue on the Maximum Ranges of weapons, and reign them in significantly. Reduce them to things like 20% of the current Effective Range or something (change depending on weapon I guess?), go through and change each weapon.

Lets say
SLs-80% while the ERs get like 50%
MLs 60% while the ERs get 25%
LLs at 30% with the ERs netting a 10%

SL - 135 / 243 (3 dmg, 2 heat, 2.25 CD, 0.75 duration, 1 DPS)
CERSL - 200 / 300 (5 dmg, 3 heat, 2.25 CD, 1.00 duration, 1.53 DPS)

^- Thats an issue imo, massive DPS difference. Possibly reduce by 1 DMG? Brings the DPS down to 1.23 while the remaining weapon is untouched. Balancing the IS ERSL, I'd say 4 dmg, 4 heat, 2.25 CS, 0.9 duration = 3.15 TCT and 1.26 DPS. This would give the ERSL a slightly better DPS at a heat cost (remember clans were supposed to be superior in heat... lets give it some flavor).

ML - 270 / 432 (5 dmg, 4 heat, 3 CD, 0.9 duration, 1.28 DPS)
CERML - 405 / 506 (7 dmg, 6 heat, 3 CD, 1.15 duration, 1.68 DPS)

^- again, clans are only ER, IS will also get ER, assumption is they will be similar to CER, possibly with slightly less duration, and 1 point less damage, and slightly less range (maybe 50m?). Problem is making both ML and ERML viable once it happens. Suggested, 6 dmg, 5 heat, 3 CD, 1 duration for = 4 TCT with a 1.5 DPS. Bring the range up to be a bit more competitive and the slightly lower DPS will be made up for by the lower burn time. I honestly wanted to suggest 6 heat for the ISERML, but I feel like that would cause I riot without a tweak to something else... maybe 6 heat, but then keep 0.9 duration for 1.53 dps? Or 7 dmg 7 heat but then 1.10 duration for 1.7 DPS? <--That doesn't sound bad...heat penalty and lower range would give it a nice balance for a higher damage burst over the same duration. Unique but neither overpowering the other at all situations?

LL - 450 / 562 (9 dmg, 7 heat, 3.25 CD, 1 duration, 2.12 DPS)
ERLL - 675 / 742 (9 dmg, 8 heat, 3.25 CD, 1.25 duration, 2 DPS)
CERLL - 740 / 814 (11 dmg, 10 heat, 3.25 CD, 1.50 duration, 2.31 DPS.

^- I actually see no issue with the LL series personally, OTHER THAN, the ridiculous range they've had for so long. I'm sorry but I like this A LOT MORE, a max of 814m on a LL without modules/quirks/etc? YES PLEASE. The CERLL has a noticeably higher DPS and slightly more raw damage, but that's spread over an extra .25 seconds and an extra 2 heat generated in total. Plus the reduction to a mere 100m or less in difference between the C and IS ERs feel like a much better place for them to sit by far.

These are weird... CSPL is +80%, CMPL is +70%, and CLPL is +100??? W...T...F... these are all sort of nope. Another split modification incoming!

SPLs-100% while the Cs get like 70%
MPLs 75% while the Cs get 35%
LPLs at 50% with the Cs netting a 15%

SPL - 110 / 220 (4 dmg, 2 heat, 2.25 CD, 0.5 duration, 1.45 DPS)
CSPL - 165 / 280 (6 dmg, 3 heat, 2.25 CD, 0.75 duration, 2 DPS?!)

^Huge DPS difference, recommend either reducing CSPL to 5 dmg for 1.66 DPS (preferred method) or up heat to 4 to compensate mainly for superior DPS and lesser so for range superiority. It can nearly compete with an ISMPL in range and has huge DPS, not okay.

MPL - 220 / 385 (6 dmg, 4 heat, 3 CD, 0.6 duration, 1.66 DPS)
CMPL - 330 / 445 (8 dmg, 6 heat, 3 CD, 0.85 duration, 2.07 DPS) <- WOW

^Again, recommend reducing damage to 7 for a 1.81 DPS at least. 2.07 is massive and we wonder why we have issues with PPFLD laser vomit?

LPL - 365 / 547 (11 dmg, 7 heat, 3.25 CD, 0.67 duration, 2.80 DPS) <-Seriously?
CLPL - 600 / 690 (13 dmg, 10 heat, 3.25 CD, 1.12 duration, 2.98 DPS) <-SERIOUSLY?!

^(I say 540 / 621 is better on CLPL)
^Sorry but no, 600m? Bad, this is really messed up, I know CERLL is far but think of this as a non-ER laser, even the CSPL and CMPL are restricted to a +50% gap, this one is +64%! Its bad, I have to say. I understand more IS tech is beyond this but...WOW. Reduce to 540 which is just below at 48%
^Once again, WTF NEARLY 3 DPS?! Here's my suggestion below:

LPL - 365 / 547 (10 dmg, 7 heat, 3.25 CD, 0.75 duration, 2.50 DPS) <-up to 8 heat? combat LPL boats?
CLPL - 540 / 621 (12 dmg, 10 heat, 3.25 CD, 1.15 duration, 2.72 DPS)

^Makes the LPL a low duration alternative to LL at cost of range with slightly more damage and it at least tones the DPS down, LPL boats are an issue. Still the highest DPS for lasers thought with respectable range for IS.
^CLPL reduced as well, but retains slightly higher DPS over the cost of a much lower duration and massive heat generation.



HOWEVER, quirks will need a major overhaul after this. Missiles don't follow this mechanic so there isn't really an issue there, but ballistics will also need a similar overhaul to pull them in and stop letting them hit at stupidly insane ranges, I understand some are supposed to shoot 'far' but 720/1440 on an AC5 and 540/1080 on an AC10 is silly.

Think of it this way, the clans 'improved' their tech, so think of them producing 'less waste' (smaller maximum range %s) and instead having a higher effective range to begin with, maybe doing a little more damage, but improvements will require more heat, longer burn times, etc. In contrast, hastily improved IS tech will have better range, damage, and retain a better burn time, but at the cost of generating more/comparable heat to the Clan's weapons without achieving quite the damage or range. Its all trade off and finding a place for it to sit.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 24 January 2016 - 12:17 PM.

[Mcgral18]

I've never been a fan of keeping the SL rubbish, and nerfing the only good SLs in the game also feels like a terrible thing to do.

We do not currently have the isERS/M Lasers, don't bother with those numbers. Also, same damage as the normal lasers, but greater range and heat. Giving them more damage on top of that kills the normal lasers...Legacy Tech and Power Creep all at once with your suggestions.


WTF is TCT

cLPL could certainly use less range. The fact it didn't get the 60% max is confusing, even at 900M it would be potent.



As for the global range nerfs...smalls are already rubbish. They don't need to be nerfed further. LRMs only had a 630M range (21 hex range, VS the 23(690M) of the ERPPC and 19 of the ERLL)

Faster falloff damage is fine, as long as it's consistent and doesn't affect optimal (Hello Ghost Damage).

500 max range on the ERML? Nearly the same as the isML...well, some nice ER properties there. I guess it could work, but it seems arbitrary.

[MauttyKoray]

Mcgral18, on 03 January 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

I've never been a fan of keeping the SL rubbish, and nerfing the only good SLs in the game also feels like a terrible thing to do.

We do not currently have the isERS/M Lasers, don't bother with those numbers. Also, same damage as the normal lasers, but greater range and heat. Giving them more damage on top of that kills the normal lasers...Legacy Tech and Power Creep all at once with your suggestions.


WTF is TCT

cLPL could certainly use less range. The fact it didn't get the 60% max is confusing, even at 900M it would be potent.



As for the global range nerfs...smalls are already rubbish. They don't need to be nerfed further. LRMs only had a 630M range (21 hex range, VS the 23(690M) of the ERPPC and 19 of the ERLL)

Faster falloff damage is fine, as long as it's consistent and doesn't affect optimal (Hello Ghost Damage).

500 max range on the ERML? Nearly the same as the isML...well, some nice ER properties there. I guess it could work, but it seems arbitrary.

TCT - Total Cycle Time, full cycle of firing your lasers and cooldown. - Removed, it was mostly for my own use to help me.

I'm honestly looking for ways to reign in all weapons so that we don't have the insane spread we have now. smalls are barely effective outside brawling versus the LLs which are shooting past 1000m.

I really want to find a balance for the weapons WITHOUT quirks as a base, and I think a major problem are the immense maximum ranges they've had. We've had so many issues with quirks, existing or changed, causing issues with specific mechs/weapons and there's a lot of boating with lasers that I think could be avoided.

I'm not saying this is perfect, and balance would have to be taken of ballistics as well, to a lesser extent missiles? Not a whole lot to do, or can do, there. Damage changes, spread, velocity. The ranges are fixed, my only worry is the same problem with lasers - massive boats, that have caused issues. 'splats'

Any constructive feedback to this is appreciated. Longer ranges a bit? Maybe a tweak here or there to heat/damage/ER and standard ratio? Maybe something is catching your eye as a specific outlier? A single weapon that seems off and needs to change.

I understand the smalls are a sore spot, I'm messing with tweaking their range again, but I felt this was a good place to start with them and I really didn't want the different lasers crossing too far across one another.

My biggest concern currently is the CERML, but I'm trying to also take into account the future release or ERML and ERSL as well.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 23 January 2016 - 11:57 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

bumping cause I feel this is even more relevant with Polar Highlands being out now.

[Khobai]

CERML and CLPL are both super broken weapons. Theyre the main reason IS need weapon quirks. CSPL is also a super broken weapon although its much more of a niche weapon.


They need to nerf those weapons so they look more like this:
CERML = 6 damage, 5 heat, 360m range, 3.25 cooldown, 1.15 duration
CLPL = 12 damage, 9 heat, 480m range, 3.50 cooldown, 0.75 duration
CSPL = 5 damage, 2.6 heat, 150m range, 2.40 cooldown, 0.60 duration


Once Clan and IS weapons are more equal at the base level, like they are above, then PGI can start getting rid of all the IS weapon superquirks.


Likewise ISXL should be changed so it can survive side torso destruction. That would eliminate the need for lopsided and ridiculous IS structure superquirks. STD engines should also be changed to give a structure buff so theres still a reason to use them.

Edited by Khobai, 24 January 2016 - 12:36 AM.

[LordNothing]

i think the biggest issue is quirks being used to fix weapon balance issues. it would be a lot easier to balance weapons if they had the same stats for everyone. then quirks would be strictly used for mech balance (structure, maneuverability, heat efficiency, etc). modules introduce the same issues and i think the system needs to go back to the *** (really?) for tat implementation they had originally used, you get one aspect buffed and another nerfed. say cd vs velocity, or burn time vs range. and they reflect personal preference, play style, or build type. it shouldn't be a no cost buff.

would be really cool if every weapon only had only one module. the module would give you a a triad of stats that let you trade across 3 different tweaks specific to a weapon (lasers might get range, burn time, and heat efficiency, acs might get velocity, cooldown, and range, lbs get spread, velocity and range, ultras get jam chance reduction, cooldown, and velocity, ppcs get heat, damage, and range, and so on). once the module is installed you can set the ratio between the 3 values however you want. by default all weapons would come with averaged out tweak values. weapon quirks might be implemented as default triads for the chassis, but could be overridden by modules (no stacking). this gets over the problem of quirks dictating what kind of weapons you use and quirks stacking modules.

Edited by LordNothing, 24 January 2016 - 01:03 AM.

[Aresye]

Khobai, on 24 January 2016 - 12:21 AM, said:

CERML and CLPL are both super broken weapons. Theyre the main reason IS need weapon quirks. CSPL is also a super broken weapon although its much more of a niche weapon.


They need to nerf those weapons so they look more like this:
CERML = 6 damage, 5 heat, 360m range, 3.25 cooldown, 1.15 duration
CLPL = 12 damage, 9 heat, 480m range, 3.50 cooldown, 0.75 duration
CSPL = 5 damage, 2.6 heat, 150m range, 2.40 cooldown, 0.60 duration


Once Clan and IS weapons are more equal at the base level, like they are above, then PGI can start getting rid of all the IS weapon superquirks.


Likewise ISXL should be changed so it can survive side torso destruction. That would eliminate the need for lopsided and ridiculous IS structure superquirks. STD engines should also be changed to give a structure buff so theres still a reason to use them.

I'm all for normalizing the things, but there's a few IS mechs the devs need to throttle back before they come anywhere remotely close to nerfing Clan mechs any further.

LordNothing, on 24 January 2016 - 12:55 AM, said:

would be really cool if every weapon only had only one module. the module would give you a a triad of stats that let you trade across 3 different tweaks specific to a weapon (lasers might get range, burn time, and heat efficiency, acs might get velocity, cooldown, and range, lbs get spread, velocity and range, ultras get jam chance reduction, cooldown, and velocity, ppcs get heat, damage, and range, and so on). once the module is installed you can set the ratio between the 3 values however you want. by default all weapons would come centered.

Could possibly expand on that idea too, where instead of being tailored for individual weapons, you'd buy a single weapon system upgrade, so for example you could purchase a, "Laser Upgrade," "Pulse Laser Upgrade," "SRM Upgrade," etc. Each upgrade would have a triad the pilot can tweak to their liking, and would affect all weapons that fall under that system that are equipped on the mech (ex: SRM Upgrade would affect both SRM-4s and SRM-6s, but not SSRMs on a mech). Not to mention it would help declutter the weapon module page.

Digging that idea.

Edited by Aresye, 24 January 2016 - 01:08 AM.

[Sandpit]

The max ranges were never really the issue in my opinion. The thing that threw and throws that area off is the extreme range advantage of certain weapons. When a medium laser can reach out and touch a Large Laser with 2 to do the same damage for a fraction of teh heat and weight, there's too much discrepancy there. I agree that there should be a "top end" and it should scale down from there.

AC2 and LRM should have longest ranges, period. That is the entire point for those two weapon systems.

Then scale down from there and take into account Clan tech as well. Having a top end over 1k isn't an issue, it's simply an issue when you try to cram every weapon into that range and don't leave enough room to have more variance between the weapons and their ranges.

It's actually trying to keep everything under 1k meters in this game that is creating a lot of issues. The scale in this game doesn't support that max range. The size of the maps often doesn't support that max range. Extend the top end a bit if need be, then go through and adjust every single other weapon according to that scale. This is one of the areas that didn't, doesn't and never has translated well to MW, especially if you use small(ish) maps. Increase map sizes and diversity, increase the ceiling for long range combat, then effectively arrange every other weapon to fall into that range scale and have distinct differences in each category.

That's one way to start getting a lot more diversity and doesn't require much really. Just adjusting the numbers, find that top end sweet spot for THIS game's scale, then adjust the rest.

[Reno Blade]

I would prefere if the big guns ( 8+ damage weapons) would be more usefull as a single weapon and EVERYTHING would be less usefull in groups.

If it's always best choice to use 2-3LL and 4-6 ML combos, or 2+ Ballistics, then we will be stuck with the bigger-is-better forever.

imho group fire should have less efficiency. I'd change the Ghost heat for all big weapons to limit 1 and increase penalties quite a bit.
Then you can keep your long range to have more focus on single fired weapon of the big ones with backup weapons.
Stock Centurion Style instead of 3LL light mechs, medium mechs and 6LL heavy and assault mechs.
(talking about the lasers as example)

[zagibu]

Ghost heat was basically their answer to boating. It seems PGI is either content with how things are, or helpless.

If you ignore TT for a moment, lasers would be best as low damage, low range backup weapons that you only use when you are out of ammo. Their hitscan nature in combination with easy boating simply makes them a superior choice at range. And since PGI doesn't want or can't fix boating and doesn't want to do anything about convergence, the only choice is to fix their range.

Edited by zagibu, 24 January 2016 - 04:39 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

You could just trip the top end of things as the weapons do up in size. For example, the Small Laser would get 2x range, the Md Laser would get 1.5x range and the Lrg Laser would get 1.25x range. You do the same thing with ACs: AC2 would get 3x range like it has now, Gauss Rifle would get 2.6x range, AC5 would get 2.5x range, AC10 = 2.25x range, and the AC20 = 2x range. Essentially, you're giving the lighter weapons with specialties a better leg up on the other stuff.

[FupDup]

Trauglodyte, on 24 January 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

You could just trip the top end of things as the weapons do up in size. For example, the Small Laser would get 2x range, the Md Laser would get 1.5x range and the Lrg Laser would get 1.25x range. You do the same thing with ACs: AC2 would get 3x range like it has now, Gauss Rifle would get 2.6x range, AC5 would get 2.5x range, AC10 = 2.25x range, and the AC20 = 2x range. Essentially, you're giving the lighter weapons with specialties a better leg up on the other stuff.

Actually, the AC/2 only has 2x max range right now. Only the Gauss has 3x range, while every other ballistic has 2x.

It was a nerf made a long time ago...during your absence?

Edited by FupDup, 24 January 2016 - 08:28 AM.

[LordNothing]

i know modules in particular are really stacked against short range weapons. you might get a few meters out of a machine gun module. but for an er large laser you get a grid square or two of extra range. i suppose weighting by range class would help. modules and quirks specific to one weapon, a flat additive value might be better.

[Trauglodyte]

When I left, ACs were range x3 (i.e. range + range + range) while energy was range x2. Did they mess with that? At any rate, I just think that weapon niches need to be pushed more than what they are. The whole range multiplier did nothing for this game other than make it more stand off-ish than it needed to be. That, plus horrible hit registry back in the day, is why SRMs were so bad and why I struggle to use them with a mixed loadout. When Md Lasers are good, w/o quirks or modules, out to 540m, what good is something that only holds to 270m flat? The entire concept cuts out a chunk of the weapon variety.

[Y E O N N E]

You know, while I agree absolute range being so high is a contributor, I think a larger factor is quality of damage at that range. That is to say, the lasers performing the best over 450 meters are too easy to use over 450 meters while simultaneously still being really good below that.

Like, if I have an ER Large, it's not really that much worse at 300 meters than it is at 700 meters. It's got a slightly longer burn time and slightly more heat, but that is not sufficient punishment. Longer range lasers should be generating more heat or have longer total cycle times than their closer-ranged counter-parts. The Clan ER Large is a great example of a balanced laser. It absolutely sucks at closer ranges because the total cycle time is crap with its long duration and high heat but, in the absence of over-quirked IS ERLL, it's actually pretty good in its role as a long-range weapon. That said, it's still too easy to use for something that deals full damage at 740 to 814 meters. Point, click, and hold. Aim for the legs and 1.5 s duration is no big deal at all. Meanwhile, ACs require the user to walk the rounds into the target, wasting precious ammo and even allowing 'Mechs to spread and even dodge the damage entirely. The laser will win the trade simply because it takes the AC user longer to get his rounds into a place where they are dealing effective damage than it takes the laser user to run his whole burn.

And the shorter range lasers? Too many benefits for being so light. Too high of a damage per tick combining with high total damage. I thought the drawback to lasers was having to hold that burn? Do we not sort of nullify that penalty if lasers can dump most of their damage into one component faster than most 'Mechs will let their pilots twist out of the way? And how about heat? If I can fire out three 42+ alphas in succession, is that not defeating the point of having high heat be the penalty for lasers' resource efficiency? The Clans could bring those big numbers and use them too effectively. IS were overquirked to use them even more effectively. Anybody remember PTS3? Where quirks were gone? Yeah, anybody trying to use an IS laserboat got destroyed, because they were too hot with too few heat-sinks against the Clans and ballistics-bringers. There's the natural state of things.

[Khobai]

Quote

AC2 and LRM should have longest ranges, period. That is the entire point for those two weapon systems.

That is the problem with LRMs. Theyre not actually long-range. They cant outrange other direct fire weapons so they lose to other direct fire weapons.

They need to make LRMs into actual long range missiles that can hit things at 1000m. But they also need to nerf indirect LRMs so they only work if the target is TAGGED or NARCED.

[Y E O N N E]

When Deathlike was hosting his PTS trial sessions, we discussed giving LRMs an acceleration period. That is to say, they move increasingly faster with distance traveled. That lets them reach long-range targets much quicker without obsoleting SRMs or even later MRMs in the process with LRMs that reach close-in targets too quickly.

[Pjwned]

Picking and choosing certain weapons and nerfing their range down to an arbitrary level sounds pretty stupid.

[Marcel Bekker]

I will just leave this here... again.

SPL DMG/HEAT
MWO: Clan 6/3 IS 4/2
TT: 3/2 both

A lot more damage on the Clan version than it should have... ranges are about right for both compared to TT

ERLarge DMG/HEAT
MWO: Clan 11/10 IS 9/8 Regular Large Laser 9/7
TT:Clan 10/12 IS 8/12 Regular Large Laser 8/8

This one is especially striking... both produce a lot less heat and do more damage than they should.

LPL DMG/HEAT
MWO: Clan 13/10(!) IS 11/7(!!)
TT: Clan 10/10 IS 9/10

I literally can not... what? In one fell swoop PPCs are made pointless unless quirked!

And that is just the damage values... I did not compare the ranges to the Tabletop version except for the SPLs.
These are the biggest differences for Lasers between MWO and TT Battletech. The medium and small lasers and their Clan/ER versions are about right.

Edited by Marcel Bekker, 24 January 2016 - 09:58 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Counter-point:

Those TT values make Large Lasers pointless in one fell swoop, too.