35 replies to this topic

[JigglyMoobs]

Flipping through my MWO recordings on my hard drive I came across this gem from Nov last year.

This was a solo queue pug where match maker managed to completely screw the pooch and put all the t1 tryhards on my team vs more relaxed less experienced folks on red.

This resulted in a 12-0 atrocities in just short of 3.5 min ending in a brutal encirclement where half of red were put down in the space of about 15 sec. However the video was actually quite educational as it juxtaposed what the higher end of t1 gets right vs what the less competitive lower tiers get wrong.

From our side you can see:

Immediate pressure with accurate long range fires.
Seizing favorable terrain and using it to trade
Very good mutual support
Setting up complementary lanes if fire and maneuver using the terrain.
Continuous pressure with mechs advancing in line across a broad front.

On the other side you see:

Hesitancy at the start.
Needless exposure to long range fire by moving across open terrain
Uncoordinated advances allowing people to be focus fired
Hiding instead of trading
Ceding high vantage points in favor of temporary safety on low ground

Result was ceding ever more until red died horridly in death canyon.

If you've got 3 min to waste and want to improve your game might be worth a look:

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 07 February 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[rolling thunder]

JigglyMoobs, on 07 February 2016 - 03:31 AM, said:

https://youtu.be/TfcT2vwhKmw

"This video is restricted. It must be approved for you to view it."

[juxstapo]

rolling thunder, on 07 February 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

"This video is restricted. It must be approved for you to view it."

That game was just that bad

[Native]

epeen stroking complete... you just got lucky.. you ran out in the open, and overheated, and the 4 or so mechs there didn't focus you. /golfclap

[Tesunie]

JigglyMoobs, on 07 February 2016 - 03:31 AM, said:

Nov last year.

I would also like to just make note of the state of balance at that time. Clan lasers still had longer ranges and fewer penalties on their XL engine. I'm noting this as your team had 8 clan mechs and the enemy team had 5. Many of the enemy team also had closer ranged builds, such as the Wolfhound I observed and the Grasshopper. This lead to an imbalance in range, which meant you dealt more damage in the opening rounds than they could deal back.

Not sure of everyone's ranking there, and I'll give that the enemy PUG team may just not have meshed as well as yours did.


Often times, a match is based on who's team makes the first mistake. Each side could have been more even than you thought in skill level, but their side made that mistake first, which continued to domino on for the match.

Many factors come into play in a match. All I guess I'm really saying.

[JigglyMoobs]

rolling thunder, on 07 February 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

"This video is restricted. It must be approved for you to view it."

Haha not sure what happened. It -is- set to public. Maybe too much graphic mech on mech violence?

[JigglyMoobs]

Native, on 07 February 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

epeen stroking complete... you just got lucky.. you ran out in the open, and overheated, and the 4 or so mechs there didn't focus you. /golfclap

This is why you are still in T3. I knew exactly what I was doing.

• I ran out into the open to clear lanes of fire for the two larger mechs behind me, which I was aware of being there the entire time. I also did it to present myself as another target to distract the enemy team. Even as I was doing this I was covering myself with a strike.
  
• I suspected that I was quite safe as the enemy team was being encircled from all sides. If you look carefully you might notice that all the mechs who were about to focus fire me were actually looking the wrong way, so they couldn't really focus fire me could they? If they did, so what? They would expose their backs to withering fire by my team (notice all the mechs standing on the ridgeline). By the time they killed off my fresh Timby, it would be over.
  
• Finally, I knew that this lot had seconds to live. It was a race against the clock to finish them off, so I face dumped my heat capacity into the two most threatening mechs nearest me. No time to conserve heat. Now was the time to override and burn through internal damage capacity.

So therein are a couple of lessons:

• Awareness of team position at all times. You need that to know when and how to position yourself.
  
• No selfishness when team is on full attack. You clear the lanes and step right up front ​when it's time.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 07 February 2016 - 11:44 AM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Tesunie, on 07 February 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

I would also like to just make note of the state of balance at that time. .....

Many factors come into play in a match. All I guess I'm really saying.

Yep, everything you said likely played a role, but it was the skill balance and coordination that made it a 12-0 in 3.5 min. If you swapped the players and kept the builds, our team probably would still have scored an overwhelming victory.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 07 February 2016 - 11:47 AM.

[Native]

I could give a flying you know what about tier. I play maybe 30 - 40 minutes at a time 2-3 times a week tops. your post reeks of "im better than you, so do what I do" its veiled with helpful commentary, but really your just stroking your own ego" and that rubs me the wrong way. when really it all just boiled down to the team happened to do the right thing at the right time, and had a better combination of mechs. you didn't have a better strat. you had no strat... happens both ways all the time.

[JigglyMoobs]

Native, on 07 February 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

.....when really it all just boiled down to the team happened to do the right thing at the right time, and had a better combination of mechs. you didn't have a better strat. you had no strat... happens both ways all the time.

And that pretty much crystallizes a certain type of mentality. You don't know what you are doing, so no one else can know either. You have no control over what happens, so there's nothing to do, no way to improve. But its okay because you didn't try that hard anyways. But you do get mad mad mad when someone says there is a better way. How dare they show of? What right do they have? And they just got lucky anyways.

Well, this post really wasn't for you, and I'm sorry it pollutted your monitor or put an ever slight frown across your brow, and my comment about tiers was just poking a little fun. Just ignore it and move on. It's just a dumb video game anyways.

[Void Angel]

Native, on 07 February 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

I could give a flying you know what about tier. I play maybe 30 - 40 minutes at a time 2-3 times a week tops. your post reeks of "im better than you, so do what I do" its veiled with helpful commentary, but really your just stroking your own ego" and that rubs me the wrong way. when really it all just boiled down to the team happened to do the right thing at the right time, and had a better combination of mechs. you didn't have a better strat. you had no strat... happens both ways all the time.

Actually, you're displaying an inferiority complex and picking a fight based on the projection of your own insecurities. The fact that you didn't understand his team's adaptive responses to the tactical situation doesn't mean they were not there. Far from it, I spent a lot of that video watching his minimap rather than the screen, and there was a qualitative difference in how his team approached the match compared to the enemy. They didn't "happen" to all be doing the right thing at the right time - they coordinated without overt communication because they all understood the same principles and applied them. You can theorycraft all day about the right 'mechs and the right builds - but it all comes down to the right players. The only important lucky chance was putting those players on the same team. Everything else came down to best practices.

You could use some best practices, given your attitude approaching the game. Instead of pushing back because you're self-conscious of your tier and skill level, ask yourself if the poster is right. If he's correct, it doesn't matter even if he is arrogant - but you will never be adept at anything you do if you continue to allow your emotionalism and insecurity to govern your reason and judgement.

[Native]

Like I said, I don't care about tier... hence why I don't mind displaying it.. my point is if your going to post a guide, keep it impartial and unemotional. don't use it to stroke your ego. Mentioning "Atrocities" and "try-hards are better than more relaxed players" and calling out people to have complexes is counter productive. just like Joe Friday says "Just the facts ma'am". reading it as a casual person-who you apparently were pointing the guide at-came off as arrogant, and self serving. i'm just a average joe.. your right. the facts are there, but the message gets lost in translation when the reader perceives that your just showing off by how you write it. a humble attitude goes a long way.

[DaveRatters]

Didn't seem arrogant to me - just facts - looking at the team list it's a roll call of the players you see on the leader boards for the various challenges we've had - have been on the wrong and right end with a couple of these players myself and it's not luck - it's the result of lots of practice and a flair for the game - good luck to them and they have earned their abilities.

I don't seek to deny or diminish their abilities - just wish I had just a small dose of the same myself!

Nice demo JigglyMoobs and I don't think arrogance was the tone I perceived - just facts and as it is. Thanks

[oldradagast]

Void Angel, on 07 February 2016 - 12:54 PM, said:

You could use some best practices, given your attitude approaching the game. Instead of pushing back because you're self-conscious of your tier and skill level, ask yourself if the poster is right. If he's correct, it doesn't matter even if he is arrogant - but you will never be adept at anything you do if you continue to allow your emotionalism and insecurity to govern your reason and judgement.

I strongly disagree with that; just because somebody is "correct" doesn't mean they have the right to cast aside good manners and be a jerk. So, yes - it DOES matter if the person is arrogant, and being "correct" is not a free pass to be an arsehat. Behavior like that is stupid and unacceptable in any professional environment, and even more groundless and idiotic when trying to promote a niche video game that has a hard enough time attracting players because of its relatively small fanbase.

That being said, I don't think the OP's post was arrogant - it was harmless compared to some of the epeen-stroking trash I've read on this forum. The title, however, was needless provocative - but the replies that basically say, "I'm allowed to be a jerk if I'm right" are far more disappointing.

Edited by oldradagast, 07 February 2016 - 02:29 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Native, on 07 February 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

Like I said, I don't care about tier... hence why I don't mind displaying it.. my point is if your going to post a guide, keep it impartial and unemotional. don't use it to stroke your ego. Mentioning "Atrocities" and "try-hards are better than more relaxed players" and calling out people to have complexes is counter productive. just like Joe Friday says "Just the facts ma'am". reading it as a casual person-who you apparently were pointing the guide at-came off as arrogant, and self serving. i'm just a average joe.. your right. the facts are there, but the message gets lost in translation when the reader perceives that your just showing off by how you write it. a humble attitude goes a long way.

Different strokes for different folks Native. Some people like plain white bread, others like spiced rum infused lane cake (mmmmm).

Key take away message: it may look random, it's not. There's method in the chaos, and you can do it too if you just pay attention. You don't even have to try all that "hard". Our brains are amazingly adaptable. If you pay attention and keep these concepts in mind as you play, over time, you will develop the skills and it will just be the thing you do in MWO, like riding a bike.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 07 February 2016 - 02:33 PM.

[oldradagast]

JigglyMoobs, on 07 February 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

Different strokes for different folks Native. Some people like plain white bread, others like spiced rum infused lane cake (mmmmm).

Key take away message: it may look random, it's not. There's method in the chaos, and you can do it too if you just pay attention. You don't even have to try all that "hard". Our brains are amazingly adaptable. If you pay attention and keep these concepts in mind as you play, over time, you will develop the skills and it will just be the thing you do in MWO, like riding a bike.

True. The sheer number of games I've seen won and lost by what are, on an absolute scale, relatively simple concepts is rather impressive.

[Void Angel]

It's like what I tell guys I'm training in my section: "Nothing we do is hard. It's putting it all together, quickly and under pressure, that's difficult."

oldradagast, on 07 February 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

I strongly disagree with that; just because somebody is "correct" doesn't mean they have the right to cast aside good manners and be a jerk. So, yes - it DOES matter if the person is arrogant, and being "correct" is not a free pass to be an arsehat. Behavior like that is stupid and unacceptable in any professional environment, and even more groundless and idiotic when trying to promote a niche video game that has a hard enough time attracting players because of its relatively small fanbase.

It's quite true that no amount of skill entitles you to mistreat other people; it's not wrong to object to such behavior and expect a certain bare minimum of decorum. But that's not what he was doing, and it's not what I was getting at in the post: what I was trying to get across was that whether or not someone is nice has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are wrong. Native felt entitled to a hostile rejection of JigglyMoobs facts based on feelings, and then justified that response by accusing Moobs of being arrogant. That's wrong.

[Native]

I didn't have a problem with the tips, and I acknowledged them. As Radagast pointed out, I did find the title provocative, and it made the whole thing seem like-in my opinion-bragging; again, just my opinion, and it could have been do to my sour mood sitting at work with a wicked sore neck and no pain killers. I however make no excuses..

I hold no ill will towards moobs, he didn't really mean any harm, and i get that now after the last few posts. If I had some sort of rebuttal I would have posted it. I considered the matter closed.

I admit, I misunderstood him, and can understand now that he's kind of a sarcastic guy. nothing wrong with that, it just doesn't translate well to text sometimes. I apologize Moobs.

I'm out.. this community is way to toxic, so congratulations Void Angel. you've white knighted me into taking a break from this game & these forums for a while. o7

[The Basilisk]

While I found the vid itself quite informative ....not necessarily in the way the OP meant it to be ... tone and selection of the correct wording is 80% of the job of getting information to ppl.

A game is a game is a game.
There is no professionalism.
Especialy not in a little itty bitty niche game like MWO with a hitreg so wonky and latency and other factors so unstable and unbalanced that each and every thought about e-sports or any other kind of *professionalism* is not even funny.

And besides...the things realy everyone can take away from that vid is that a Clan Timberwolf can go in front of several other mechs without instadead ( a Cataphract wouldn't have survived a split second even with fresh armor ) and that Clan laser vomit ruled supreme.

With a little additional thought about the mechcomposition and the weapons one saw in use you could also start to think about the Impact of the convolution of certain builds and chassis in a match.
So if we just take the mere funktionality of the matchmaker regarding the pilots as given fact ( statistics of tenth of thousends games played do not lie ) the obvious imbalance of a good portion of the games we play must have other reasons.

-- Leveling mechs
-- fun and imbalanced builds ( sometimes you get the map for your build sometimes not )
-- convolution of certain chassis that are simply superior or simply underhive material.
-- synergy effects: six ecm frontload and two skilled narc mechs and four mobile LRM mechs with modules meet a bunch of slow laser and AC brawlers on caustic valley....
-- tonnage imbalance: sometimes a 12man team meets a group of six two man teams in assaults
my tonnage imbalance record is well over 300T

There are so much possibilitys to render the matchmaker next to useless....

Edit: Just an incentive to think about....why is the B33f so successfull and well known with his guides ?
Why does everyone refere to Koniving for guides ?
Because they are either totally fun or simply laid back easy guys not taking themselfs too serious.

Edited by The Basilisk, 08 February 2016 - 01:08 AM.

[JigglyMoobs]

I'll skip the rehashing of discussion about stylistic factors. I think the previous posts cover them adequately. Not trying to be the B33f or Koniving, you already have B33f and Koniving for that.

The Basilisk, on 08 February 2016 - 12:34 AM, said:

And besides...the things realy everyone can take away from that vid is that a Clan Timberwolf can go in front of several other mechs without instadead ( a Cataphract wouldn't have survived a split second even with fresh armor ) and that Clan laser vomit ruled supreme.

If you look at score and damage more carefully you'll notice that I only played a supporting role in that game. The big killers were the Gauss ER PPC Dire, the Thunderwub, and the Raven (wait wut???) on our team.

You might also notice the reason I didn't insta-died was that I was not shot at. How I managed to pull that one off had little to do with me specifically and everything to do with the teams.

Quote

With a little additional thought about the mechcomposition and the weapons one saw in use you could also start to think about the Impact of the convolution of certain builds and chassis in a match.
....

Newer/less competitive people in this game think about and see most things in this game through the lens of build and chassis. More competitive people think more about teams, tactics, information, communication, problem solving, and adaptation. You're free to play however you want. I just think the latter are more interesting.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 08 February 2016 - 01:26 PM.