21 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

So in my quest to run and love mechs that most others hate I finally bought the Dragons.
Went through all the old posts back to 2012. Not much inspiration to be found.

Thus far in playing them however, I have noticed two things:
1) The supposed xl friendliness of this mech (okay not so much friendliness as the realization the the CT on this thing is a magnet) just doesn't hold up. Seems most people know that a Dragon needs an XL to do much so my LT is targeted with unerring precision.

2) Despite the above this mech running an XL300 with a Gauss and 2 ERLL has been surprisingly productive. Though I feel like I die quickly I am doing just under 400 damage per match. For consistent losses that seems pretty good. Though these have been my consistently best damage matches thus far I feel like the mech really ought to brawl, and thus have a std (see pt 1) above).

Gonna run the flame with AC/20, 3ML and a flamer (cuz its called the flame).

Will be buying them all. Will probably leave the XL sniper build on the 5N. Rest I will probably do mixed load-outs or predominant brawlers. But am open to suggestions. Thoughts?

[DoubleFlip]

Current meta is suggesting XL300 like yours with 2LPL+AC/10 with 2.5tons of ammo. Idk about the side torso, don't see soo many dragons around.

http://metamechs.com...se/heavy-mechs/

[Bud Crue]

Yeah, I tried the meta build and I just felt too fragile. I know its a new mech for me and I should try it some more (its the "meta" for a reason I suppose), but it sure felt like as soon as I made it into range of the LPLs my left torso was insta melted.

[Steinkrieg]

This is the last build that I settled on for my Flame in the current meta. I used to run this back in the day...like when the Flame first came out lol. TBH, most of the former good builds for Flames, and Dragons in general, come from Pre-Clan days and rarely stack up to the current meta. The Fang has it a little better with being able to mount a heavily quirked AC/10.

After playing with smurfy for a while, I came up with the following that might work in today's meta - FLAMEv1 , FLAMEv2 , and this FLAMEv3 .

[Arianrhod]

When everyone knows you probably have an XL engine, speed and maneuverability are your greatest allies. That's why I run an XL 340 and am even contemplating going up to an XL 360. Right now I carry a Gauss rifle with three tons of ammo and an ER PPC. The build can pretty handily break 500 damage in a match if I play it smart (which I don't always do). I'm never going back to 81 kph on a Dragon.

That said, I think the Dragon is still goodly XL-friendly. If I get XL'd, it's almost always because I did something exceedingly stupid, like tried to brawl a fresh Highlander. If you're afraid of sudden XL death, do like me and outrange the enemy, with the speed to keep distance when you need to, or outflank when it's advantageous.

[Davy J0nes]

Your not wrong about the hit boxes Xl in a dragon is a nono maybe you can get away with it in the lower tiers but not with players who know about the new hit boxes take a look for yourself your best with Std engine around 300 little lower if your have to.

http://mwomercs.com/...39#entry5023539

[Kokobutta]

The drg-1c was my first mech, and probably my favorite for about a year and still have a KD over 2.0 with it. BUT....they're not as XL friendly as one would lead you to believe for the exact reason you stated. EVERYONE expects the drg to have it and the side torso's are pretty easy to isolate.

The flame is my favorite overall. I'd recommend 4ml's, std 280'ish and an AC20 (or swap for gauss when you feel like it). You'll need both FF and Endo for it. It's a solid build.

[Bud Crue]

Thanks for the comments folks.

Decided that since I have over a hundred mechs, there is no reason not to embrace this particular mech as a total "fun" project.
That in mind...

The Flame, needs flames. So 2 LPL, 2 flamers, and and SRM 4, running a std 300. I like it because the aesthetics of that monster arm having the LPLs and the tiny flamers strapped to the other arm looks cool. Plus, it actually works pretty well, thus far.

The 1C, pure brawl: std 300, an LBX and 4 MPL. Yeah, yeah I know the LBX sucks, etc. but with the regular ac10 I felt like I had to drop 2 of the MPLs to ML, and I didn't like that.

5N...tried a bunch of different builds...2ERLL and Gauss seemed best, but I just miss too much with the gauss. So dropped it, and decided to make this mech the trifecta of variants using crappy weapons. Now I have 3 AC/2s, 7 tons of ammo, 2ML, and AMS with an XL300. Decided to run at least 1 XL, and this is it.

Terrible builds I know. But they are fun and each is averaging around 375 damage and honestly each variant has a "meta" build that some other mech does better, so I might as well give these pos-es some character.

[Bud Crue]

Update (for any who care):

The Dragon (and particularly the flame) is thus far the worst brawler I have ever played. Its like the torsos are tissue and everyone knows it has a cannon in the left to it is targeted immediately (even when it doesn't have said cannon). Losing your LT almost immediately, is a routine occurrence so I see no point in keeping the toughness of the std, and am going to go with XL 350s (min) to get a bit more mobility. Also hoping this will force me to play with a little more patience as well and so will probably try (I don't have a lot of choice) to engage at distance. If I go that route I am thinking an AC10 or even the ticking time bomb of a Gauss for that LT spot (can't do an Ac/20 with the XL). May even forego a ballistic and stick with laser arms and hope for the best.

[Arianrhod]

Bud Crue, on 23 February 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

Update (for any who care):

The Dragon (and particularly the flame) is thus far the worst brawler I have ever played.

Have you tried the UM-R60 yet? c;

[Bud Crue]

Arianrhod, on 23 February 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

Have you tried the UM-R60 yet? c;

Not yet. I'll get there. One awful build at a time. But i will get there.

[Bud Crue]

One thing I have noticed trying to master these things is that they get focused like nobody's business. My theories are that:
1) advanced players no how weak Dragons are and so get all excited for an easy kill; or
2) less experienced players aren't used to seeing them, and figure anything that big (looking) must be dangerous and so they ignore bigger dangers to focus on my pathetic Dragons.

Example: Just left a match wherein the "assault lance" was a Dire, a Warhawk, a Stalker and my Dragon. The four of us approached epsilon (conquest on canyons) on the first ledge, dropping down nearly together to hit the cap point. Reds came around the cliff, and to a mech focused on me despite taking immediate fire from my lance mates. Why would anyone focus on a Dragon vs ANY of those other three mechs? Moreover since the cap point structure was interposed between me and the majority of the enemy, so they had to be making a decent effort to hit me vs the others, who were out in the open firing on them.

This sort of thing has been occurring on and off all week and I just don't get it. Thus, my current view is that theory 1) above is likely what is going on -despite it being a conflict of conventional wisdom that you kill the most dangerous mechs first.

Either way it is interesting (though it has made for some really short matches). At this rate, it ought to be well into summer before I master these things. Sigh.

[Arianrhod]

Bud Crue, on 24 February 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Why would anyone focus on a Dragon vs ANY of those other three mechs? Moreover since the cap point structure was interposed between me and the majority of the enemy, so they had to be making a decent effort to hit me vs the others, who were out in the open firing on them.

This sort of thing has been occurring on and off all week and I just don't get it. Thus, my current view is that theory 1) above is likely what is going on -despite it being a conflict of conventional wisdom that you kill the most dangerous mechs first.

Well, actually, conventional tactical wisdom would to me dictate the following:
When hunting a group, always pick off the weakest targets first.

Predatory animals have figured this out. Wolves, for example, always go for the members of the herd that are either young and vulnerable, old and frail, or sick or injured. That member is the fastest, easiest kill.

In MWO or any simulated team-based combat situation, the weakest enemy player is the one that's going to give you the fastest reduction in the enemy team's firepower, which gives you an advantage from the start. Here's a scenario:

My lance approaches a Dire Wolf and a Dragon. My lance is composed of a King Crab and a Hunchback (I'm in the Hunchback). Me and my assault buddy decide to focus on the Dragon and kill it because it is weaker. The enemy lance decides to focus on the King Crab, because it's obviously several times more dangerous than my Hunchback. Assuming absolute equality in damage trade, the Dragon is dead first, leaving us to focus on the Dire. The King Crab is damaged, but we now have much more firepower than the enemy lance and we kill the Dire quickly. The King Crab will likely be destroyed, but either way, I'm still alive, and I took little damage because I didn't get focused. So my side wins, and by a decent margin.

Honestly, the Dragon doesn't excel working with other heavies and assaults, because it's really an oversized medium. But then again you've already discovered how poorly it synergizes with your allies in most situations XD

[Bud Crue]

Arianrhod, on 24 February 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Well, actually, conventional tactical wisdom would to me dictate the following:
When hunting a group, always pick off the weakest targets first.

Total get what your are saying. It is essentially theory #1 above. I understand real world hunting tactics, especially in the wildlife sense.

When I mentioned conventional wisdom however, I was referring to what is conventional around here. In my anecdote above, there is no way the reds saw me first. If they were calling targets any of the other three would have come up first. Don't know about you, but I lack the ability to calmly consider (while taking fire from the likes of those three mechs) to search systematically for a target that might happen to be weaker nearby, and then call it out (assuming I see it), etc. They were in the open and I was not. They were closer to the enemy and engaging them. Whereas I was turning around the back of the cap structure-thingy and just coming to. Yet I was the focus of their fire. I find that interesting and I think it is because good players and bad (for different reasons) focus on Dragons and perhaps other rarely seen and/or over sized mechs (perhaps Gargoyles suffer from this as well).

You may very well be right and they had some systematic methodology in mind. I jut think it is more of a gut thing:
"look at that big ugly mech/look at that -some pathetic sucker brought a Dragon to a mech fight!
Kill it!"
Little do they know. Then again maybe my experience is the outlier. I have been playing for a year and Dragons are probably the most infrequent mech I see (other than perhaps Vindicators). My theories above are largely premised on that rarity.

Edited by Bud Crue, 25 February 2016 - 04:04 AM.

[Steinkrieg]

TBH, the way I play my Dragons is to be 300m to 500m from the front line and skirmish in a little closer once the brawl happens. Whoever said that Dragons are oversized mediums is right. If they are going to focus fire you because you are the weakest link, you need to make it hella hard for them to get to you, and punish them for it. You can do this quite well with the FLAMEv1 build that I linked before. I really don't see how you can run anything that wouldn't a detriment to your team if you put in a XL350+.

[Bud Crue]

Steinkrieg, on 25 February 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

TBH, the way I play my Dragons is to be 300m to 500m from the front line and skirmish in a little closer once the brawl happens. Whoever said that Dragons are oversized mediums is right. If they are going to focus fire you because you are the weakest link, you need to make it hella hard for them to get to you, and punish them for it. You can do this quite well with the FLAMEv1 build that I linked before. I really don't see how you can run anything that wouldn't a detriment to your team if you put in a XL350+.

That XL280 seems way too slow, but at this point, wth. I'll give it a try this weekend (doubt I will get to play again before then). I'll let ya know how it goes. Thanks again folks.

[Bud Crue]

Played a couple. Sigh. I just can't hold back, and these things just brawl for crap.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Bud Crue, on 25 February 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

Played a couple. Sigh. I just can't hold back, and these things just brawl for crap.

sup

[Bud Crue]

Thanks Admiral,

May go back to the Gauss build in one of the variants.
Coming more to accept that my usual brawl style just isn't right for these. I'm either too slow or too thined skinned. Squeesed in 2 matches this morning and made a conscious effort to hold back a bit and not play up close with the assaults. Running an Ac10 and 2LPL build had a great match. Tried to do it again with my 3LPL build and did really well (3 kills and 2 most damage dealt) but we lost.

Though I still think this mech is WAY out classed by all other heavies and most mediums (which seems to be in agreement with darn near everyone around here), it is clear that the old adage of "its not the mech its the player" is also true. It is up to me to play these things the right way, and that is as a second line support role, staying mobile and directing fire where needed. It is NOT imho a brawler, and can't be no matter how many times I try to make it so.

Edited by Bud Crue, 26 February 2016 - 04:18 AM.

[Steinkrieg]

Glad you were able to find that 'sweet spot' of skirmishing distance. As you've seen, once you find that 'sweet spot', you can do very well in it in the role to which it has been relegated. It could brawl back in the day, particularly the AC/20 + 4 MLAS build did quite well, but, as you've also seen, it's just outclassed these days. Keep at it, and you will find that in a few weeks you'll be a better pilot, no matter how good you are now. You just start to feel the flow of battle in ways that you didn't before.