31 replies to this topic

[TLBFestus]

Bitcoin users are suckers.

The real players use CANADIAN TIRE MONEY.

[MischiefSC]

MechregSurn, on 23 April 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

Actually, I have a 4 year degree in Investments which was mostly economics at the top 5 business program I attended as an undergrad. Economics is the study of FREE MARKETS, so bitcoin is a beautiful example of ECONOMICS. From your reply that distinction seems to have escaped you.

Further, your statement about the history of currency is flat out wrong. The point of many currencies has been sovereignty breaking away from whichever centralized creator of currency dominated the moment. Currency is historically unstable due to its centralized nature. The currency markets are required to create a semblance of rationality, of which bitcoin is just another currency.

The big difference is that the security and value of bitcoin is based upon a decentralized model of confirmed transactions. Which means, as centralized currencies fluctuate, Bitcoin will grow stronger. It is the alternative to greedy, out-of-control politicians, dictators, kings and bureaucrats controlling money.

The only question is if Bitcoin is exactly the implementation that will last or if an even better alternative will be devised.

Getting into an argument on conspiracy theories with you on the internet isn't going to be fruitful. It's rarely fruitful in a controlled therapy environment.

Bitcoin as a medium of exchange vs a regulated currency is like saying hiding your money in a buried box in the back yard on your hut in the wilderness is safer than a bank. No, your bank is ensured and protected by the police. Your hidden stash is safe until someone bigger just pts in the effort to take it from you. That's why currency is regulated - stability and security.

Governments are just people. The people managing your bitcoins are every bit as corrupt. People are people, the idea that governments or whoever are part of some nefarious conspiracy is flat out false. A social collective is just as prone to corruption only it tends to have less oversight.

All money is pretendy fun times make believe value we use as a medium of exchange for goods and services. The only question is if you want it overseen and managed by someone who has some oversight and laws to regulate them or just count on nobody ever deciding to **** you over for the lulz.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Monkey Lover, on 23 April 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

Bitcoin is basically turning into a cheap payment system.

People in greece have converted their wealth to bitcoin due to it being more stable than greece's national currency. Immigrants from Cuba use bitcoin to send money to their families back home. If they sent money to their families in cuba via wire transfer it would be heavily taxed (as much as 30%-50% or higher if I remember right) and fees would be high. Sending money via bitcoin allows them to get around those restrictions. If a wire transfer from a bank carries $12 - $20 fees, making a similar transfer of funds using bitcoin might cost only 12-20 cents.

The media tries to demonize bitcoin by claiming that terrorists and drug dealers use it.

But if someone google searches for "HSBC funds terrorism" -- they might realize that banks have been caught funding terrorism, drug cartels and other illegal ventures, and they're still doing it.

Economists have been talking about how bitcoin could be more stable than gold lately. Bitcion has the potential to become something like the peoples currency. But the negative stigma attached to it by the media isn't necessarily a hurdle that will be overcome and so many will probably oppose it, unfairly.

Monkey Lover, on 23 April 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

I'm not so sure it can hold up as the capacity is limited. It's not even doing close to the transaction of visa and it is having a hard time now.

Bitcoin is limited to 7 transactions per second if I'm remembering right. That's one legitimate issue. Another might be the high electricity usage. I haven't seen anyone compare bitcoin's electricity usage to the clouds of servers banking institutions use, so there could be room there for research.

wanderer, on 23 April 2016 - 02:17 PM, said:

You mean like most forms of fiat currency? At this point, the dollar is backed only by our debt rating (ie, how good we do at paying back our bonds), we long ago stopped things like actually backing it up with anything material.

Could be more hilarious. They could start accepting the gold-pegged yuan.

Banks are trying to patent blockchain technology -- the cryotographic ledger that keeps track of all bitcoin transactions. That could be one of the clearest signs that bitcoin technology is legit.

I don't know why people point to fiat (paper) currency as an established standard of what currency should be when banks, rabid economists and other shills are currently campaigning to make fiat currency illegal. Fiat currency is good in that it prevents banks and credit card companies from having a monopoly over wealth and the free exchange of it.

One might say that stability is the standard by which currencies are rated. The united states dollar was utilized as an international reserve currency because people thought it was the most stable and the most unlikely to devalue. If bitcoin can prove that its more stable than us dollars in the long run, there's no inherent reason why it couldn't be used as a reserve currency aside from bitcoins hard cap as to how many bitcoins can be produced.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 23 April 2016 - 08:16 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Off-topic thread is off-topic.

Moving to off-topic.

[Surn]

Guess where peoples tax refunds are going...

[occusoj]

I Zeratul I, on 23 April 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

People in greece have converted their wealth to bitcoin due to it being more stable than greece's national currency.

WAT?
Greece has the Euro as currency, which is a huge lot more stable than BTC.
As far as I remember, please correct me if Im wrong, Greece joined the Euro zone back in 2001 or so while Bitcoin became a thing around 2009.

Quote

The media tries to demonize bitcoin by claiming that terrorists and drug dealers use it.

Thats because drug dealers and terrorists DO actually use it.
The bigger ones dont need to but it certainly came in handy for the smaller guys.

Quote

Guess where peoples tax refunds are going...

Probably to the owners of the next Mt.Gox I guess.
Btw. why not post a more interesting timeframe, like this?

Doesnt look too bright for those who bought into that around early 2014. Nice spikes.
Wouldnt touch that mess with a ten feet pole. Who dares to call this "stable"?

BTC is a classic ripoff. First it was extremely easy to mine, a set of decent GPUs worked like a charm. Soon the initial miners sat on a big heap of worthless data. The later one entered, the more effort it took to generate coins so they are pretty safe from inflation by creation.
Step two: Blow its value up and sell that crap. Insta profit. Since mining gets ever harder, up to a point where it is practically impossible to do so, this "currency" is extraordinary easy to pump.
If business is done, destroy the currency and repeat.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

occusoj, on 24 April 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

WAT?
Greece has the Euro as currency, which is a huge lot more stable than BTC.
As far as I remember, please correct me if Im wrong, Greece joined the Euro zone back in 2001 or so while Bitcoin became a thing around 2009.

One might say the euro has been crashing for the last decade.



Europeans are well aware of this and so for a long time they've been converting their wealth to gold, bitcoin, in some case they've literally been buying flat screen tvs because they have more confidence in electronics to hold value better than the euro. If the EU Fails the worst case scenario is the euro will be worthless. The same might be said of the us dollar if the deficit grows too large and the federal government defaults, the us dollar might also be worthless in the future.

occusoj, on 24 April 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

Thats because drug dealers and terrorists DO actually use it.

There's evidence that bitcoin is used to buy drugs.

I don't remember seeing any evidence that its used by terrorists. The idea that terrorists use bitcoin is a myth the media invented and propagated. Its something many blindly believe despite a lack of proof or facts that support it.

We do have hard evidence that banks fund terrorism and drug cartels. But there is no negative backlash from the public because there are no media campaigns that raise awareness on this & demonize banks and their illicit behavior.

One might say the above is a decent example of how the media serves as one of the biggest sources of misinformation & mind control in this post modern era.

The reason people oppose bitcoiin is usually due to the bank and corporation funded media campaign against it.

occusoj, on 24 April 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

The bigger ones dont need to but it certainly came in handy for the smaller guys.

Probably to the owners of the next Mt.Gox I guess.
Btw. why not post a more interesting timeframe, like this?

Doesnt look too bright for those who bought into that around early 2014. Nice spikes.
Wouldnt touch that mess with a ten feet pole. Who dares to call this "stable"?

BTC is a classic ripoff. First it was extremely easy to mine, a set of decent GPUs worked like a charm. Soon the initial miners sat on a big heap of worthless data. The later one entered, the more effort it took to generate coins so they are pretty safe from inflation by creation.
Step two: Blow its value up and sell that crap. Insta profit. Since mining gets ever harder, up to a point where it is practically impossible to do so, this "currency" is extraordinary easy to pump.
If business is done, destroy the currency and repeat.

Those big upticks where bitcoin hit $1,000 per bitcoin happened when chinese got involved in bitcoin trading and they pushed the price way up into what might have been a bubble. The price crashed after bitcoin trading was illegalized in china.

But what people tend to forget is even if bitcoin crashes and price fluctuates, bitcoin is still worth more than 200 times what it was worth in 2011.



This means that if someone invested $1,000 bucks in bitcoin in 2011, today they would have the equivalent of more than 200 times their initial investment -- even if the price is drifting upward and downward.

If you know that then you can understand why many view bitcoin as a hot investment opportunity.

If you compare bitcoin to the stock market -- bitcoin is actually doing much better than the stock market has over the last few years.

So while some might look at bitcoin charts and demonize it because that's the way the media tells them they should behave, if they bothered to compare bitcoin to the stock market and the price of gold, they might realize bitcoin is outperforming a lot of things even if its chart doesn't look perfect.

[Lily from animove]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 23 April 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

That`s good news. Some XX century minded people maybe will accept new reality. That train will not stop, it`s far beyond that point by now. No matter what less informed guys like Martyr would say.

Money is never save, only naturals are truly save. No matter of printed on paper, or a virtual one. Moeny is to make trading easier but its the most risky value loss at all.

[occusoj]

I Zeratul I, on 24 April 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

One might say the euro has been crashing for the last decade.

One also might say that going from ~1000->250 BTC crashed even worse for a whole year and now retraces some of that move.

I Zeratul I, on 24 April 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

If the EU Fails the worst case scenario is the euro will be worthless. The same might be said of the us dollar

And Bitcoin. If it fails, its going to be worthless too.
Since its nothing but a fiat currency like the others it will inevitably do so, just a matter of time.

I Zeratul I, on 24 April 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

I don't remember seeing any evidence that its used by terrorists. The idea that terrorists use bitcoin is a myth the media invented and propagated. Its something many blindly believe despite a lack of proof or facts that support it.

Since one could buy all sorts of illegal firarms and some explosives for it, I guess the idea of at least some terrorists making use of that isnt too far off. The big groups of course run their own supply channels or are supplied by three letter agencies anyway.

I Zeratul I, on 24 April 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

This means that if someone invested $1,000 bucks in bitcoin in 2011, today they would have the equivalent of more than 200 times their initial investment -- even if the price is drifting upward and downward.

And if someone invested 1000 bucks in BTC in early 2014 he would have just about half that today.
Or if he bought 3846 shares for this 1000 of AAPL in 1985 he would have about 400 times his initial investment now, without accounting for inflation.
The wonderful art of buying and selling at the right time.

Quote

One might say the above is a decent example of how the media serves as one of the biggest sources of misinformation & mind control in this post modern era.

It certainly does spread misinformation but leading people into a totally unregulated fiat currency thats 100% depentent on a working internet connection isnt going to help them in any possible way.

Quote

The reason people oppose bitcoiin is usually due to the bank and corporation funded media campaign against it.

I oppose it because its an unreliable, instable, unregulated, highly manipulated minefiled.

[Surn]

Lol, you seem to forget that in 2008 the experts were calling their families telling them to go get anything they could from the atm because the banks might not be there the next day.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

occusoj, on 25 April 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

#1 One also might say that going from ~1000->250 BTC crashed even worse for a whole year and now retraces some of that move.

#2 And Bitcoin. If it fails, its going to be worthless too.
Since its nothing but a fiat currency like the others it will inevitably do so, just a matter of time.

#3 Since one could buy all sorts of illegal firarms and some explosives for it, I guess the idea of at least some terrorists making use of that isnt too far off. The big groups of course run their own supply channels or are supplied by three letter agencies anyway.

#4 And if someone invested 1000 bucks in BTC in early 2014 he would have just about half that today.
Or if he bought 3846 shares for this 1000 of AAPL in 1985 he would have about 400 times his initial investment now, without accounting for inflation.
The wonderful art of buying and selling at the right time.

#5 It certainly does spread misinformation but leading people into a totally unregulated fiat currency thats 100% depentent on a working internet connection isnt going to help them in any possible way.

#6 I oppose it because its an unreliable, instable, unregulated, highly manipulated minefiled.

1. The drop from $1000 downwards wasn't that bad as it happened over a gradual period, rather than a single day or a few hours. I think most people sold whatever bitcoin they were holding when the price dopped to $900 or $800 if not higher so they didn't suffer much in the way of losses. For early adopters who bought bitcoin when it was worth $1 to $15 per bitcoin, the drop from $1000 on down didn't hurt them much either because they were still up by a lot even with the decline.

2. Considering one might say bitcoin is doing better than the us dollar, the us stock market and gold the reasons for bitcoin failing are looking slim given its performance is better than traditional forms of fiat.

3. If terrorists were buying weapons, explosives or illegal things they would probably just use a suitcase of cash. Fiat is less traceable and leaves less record of transactions than bitcoin does. Point being there are no advantages to terrorists using bitcoin over normal currency. People also tend to fail to acknowledge that moving weapons and illegal contraband across borders requires some type of smuggling infrastructure. Silk road being a bitcoin marketplace where drugs are shipped to people in fedex containers isn't something that is going to work for arms traders. So while drug dealing might be possible with bitcoin, that's a far cry from what would be needed to sell things like weapons over the internet for bitcoin and its an unlikely scenario since cash is less traceable.

4. Buy low sell high is a hallmark of investing. Knowing what bubbles are is also a good survival skill for investors. There probably weren't many who bought bitcoin en masse when it was worth $1,000 due to concerns of bitcoin being an overpriced bubble.

5. Ok, if you're going to say that bitcoin "spreads misinformation" you need to make an attempt to support that with facts, evidence, memes, chicken entrails er something. It is not true that bitcoin is unregulated. The cryptographic processes involved in bitcoin mining are bitcoins regulation against things like inflation. Its designed to be a self regulating currency. As time goes on it becomes more difficult from a mathematical perspective for new bitcoins to be generated. This forms the basis for bitcoin's currency regulation. There are also other safeguards built in. If you're interested in the subject there's a free infomercial course on https://www.khanacademy.org/

6. Like I said before, bitcoin is doing better than other existing forms of currency, stock markets and gold. You can try to say that bitcoin is "THE DEVIL" (like adam sandlers mom in the waterboy movie) but given that bitcoin has been doing better and seemed more reliable than its competitors that makes it difficult to criticize it.

MechregSurn, on 25 April 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

Lol, you seem to forget that in 2008 the experts were calling their families telling them to go get anything they could from the atm because the banks might not be there the next day.

Luckily things never got that bad.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 26 April 2016 - 12:10 AM.

[Surn]

It really does amaze me that people espouse economics and then ignore inflation's devaluation of the dollar. Then i remember it took 100 years for some romans to realize the empire had fallen.