82 replies to this topic

[Douglas grizzly]

as it stands now there is a significant IS bias in mech toughness and in some cases weapondry. I have used several versions of the crow against IS mechs and usually get trashed by a mech that should have gone down but hasnt due to the fact they have so many toughness tweaks built into them.
For you IS trolls go stuff it.

[nehebkau]

Adamski, on 29 April 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

The Inner Sphere Streak SRM2's need a MAJOR balance pass.

Anyone else with thoughts / suggestions?

Brought this up over a year ago and PGI promptly ignored it.

At the very least, clan streaks and SRMs should have more heat to account for the range just like all other clan weapons...
C-SSRM2 : 2 heat
C-SSRM4 : 4 heat
C-SSRM6 : 6 heat

I can deal with range and weight differences IF there is a corresponding penalty to offset that. This would fix the current issues in scouting as well.

Edited by nehebkau, 01 May 2016 - 07:06 AM.

[Charles Sennet]

Tell you what, I'll agree to this when Clans get single-slug ballistics and the IS LPL duration is not shorter than the Clan LPL.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Charles Sennet, on 01 May 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

Tell you what, I'll agree to this when Clans get single-slug ballistics and the IS LPL duration is not shorter than the Clan LPL.

The IS LPL has a shorter duration than the Clan SPL(!) Think about that for a minute.

Edited by Afuldan McKronik, 01 May 2016 - 07:39 AM.

[Mystere]

Afuldan McKronik, on 01 May 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

The IS LPL has a shorter duration than the Clan SPL(!) Think about that for a minute.

"The Clans are an abomination that must be expunged!" -- If you are to listen to the decades-long anti-Clan crusade who insist that they should not have been created in the first place. They infest this game.

[Mcgral18]

Charles Sennet, on 01 May 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

Tell you what, I'll agree to this when Clans get single-slug ballistics and the IS LPL duration is not shorter than the Clan LPL.

Now you're discounting the smaller, lighter and shorter ranged Clam stuff.

You'd also need to either half the range, or take a hefty damage reduction for that cLPL change.



You need to examine things objectively. The isSSRM2 is outright worse than the cSSRM2, either idential, or worse, stats in every category. It's not superior at anything, despite being heavier.

The cACs are lighter and smaller (2 aside) and the Laser has more damage, more range, less weight, but more duration as an offset (also one of only two lasers which has lower Dam/tick than the IS version)

[Adamski]

Charles Sennet, on 01 May 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

Tell you what, I'll agree to this when Clans get single-slug ballistics and the IS LPL duration is not shorter than the Clan LPL.

And then I counter with Clans can get single slug ballistics when they increase their tonnage by 2-3 tons for every ballistic weapon, and drop the UAC ability, and increase the slot consumption.

Hell, look at the LBX stats, the cLBX10 has the exact same damage, cooldown, and spread as the iLBX10 while weighing 1 ton less and taking 1 slot less.
The cGauss weighs 3 less tons, take 1 less slot, and has every other stat identical to the IS version, if you care so much about single slug ballistics

Or how the cLPL can have the same duration as the iLPL when it gets its ranged cut from 600 down to 365, and weighs an extra ton on top of that.

Edited by Adamski, 01 May 2016 - 08:58 AM.

[nehebkau]

Adamski, on 01 May 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

And then I counter with Clans can get single slug ballistics when they increase their tonnage by 2-3 tons for every ballistic weapon, and drop the UAC ability, and increase the slot consumption.

Hell, look at the LBX stats, the cLBX10 has the exact same damage, cooldown, and spread as the iLBX10 while weighing 1 ton less and taking 1 slot less.
The cGauss weighs 3 less tons, take 1 less slot, and has every other stat identical to the IS version, if you care so much about single slug ballistics

Or how the cLPL can have the same duration as the iLPL when it gets its ranged cut from 600 down to 365, and weighs an extra ton on top of that.

Isn't it funny how clanners like to ignore their weapons that have substantial benefits and just go "derp autocannon single-shot"
We are getting really close to weapons/mech balance in the game and SRMs/SSRMs are the only weapon system that doesn't conform to the range/damage/weight vs. extra-heat offset.

[Khobai]

Quote

Isn't it funny how clanners like to ignore their weapons that have substantial benefits and just go "derp autocannon single-shot"

its equally funny how IS like to ignore that their mechs have quirks that substantially increase both toughness as well as in most cases make their weapons equal or sometimes BETTER than their clan equivalents.

I agree the IS SSRM-2 needs a buff.

In the context of streaks thats the only balance change I believe is necessary.

[LordNothing]

id just give is ssrms the same damage that their srm2s have. is version gets more damage, and the clan version gets more range.

you might also add a 'one missile always hits torso' rule which might apply universally. this would give you a reason to use smaller launchers.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 May 2016 - 12:52 PM.

[Charles Sennet]

nehebkau, on 01 May 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

Isn't it funny how clanners like to ignore their weapons that have substantial benefits and just go "derp autocannon single-shot"
We are getting really close to weapons/mech balance in the game and SRMs/SSRMs are the only weapon system that doesn't conform to the range/damage/weight vs. extra-heat offset.

Right now one side has better durability, DPS, and close-range pinpoint damage. That's a big problem in invasion modes that force close-quarters objective guarding/taking. Not saying Clans don't have their strengths, they do. It just they don't add up to IS right now. IS has the best light (Oxide), the best medium (Blackjack), the best heavy (Black Knight), and the best Assault (Atlas) in the game. The pendulum swang too far and now Clans need a little help back. Perhaps some of our heat efficiency back. Or perhaps a moderate increase to Clan TTK to better stand up to waves of BK's and Atlases for which we currently have no answer. Competitive leagues/players know this. When Clans were OP, I admitted it and welcomed many of the changes. But now we are at a point where Clans need something esp in the heavy and assault classes. I know many experienced players on both sides who see the same thing. Just waiting for PGI to wake up to this and do something. Not sure when that will happen given all the IS fan boys (like NGNG) that are currently in their ear.

Edited by Charles Sennet, 01 May 2016 - 01:56 PM.

[Adamski]

Charles Sennet, on 01 May 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

Right now one side has better durability, DPS, and close-range pinpoint damage. That's a big problem in invasion modes that force close-quarters objective guarding/taking. Not saying Clans don't have their strengths, they do. It just they don't add up to IS right now. IS has the best light (Oxide), the best medium (Blackjack), the best heavy (Black Knight), and the best Assault (Atlas) in the game. The pendulum swang too far and now Clans need a little help back. Perhaps some of our heat efficiency back. Or perhaps a moderate increase to Clan TTK to better stand up to waves of BK's and Atlases for which we currently have no answer. Competitive leagues/players know this. When Clans were OP, I admitted it and welcomed many of the changes. But now we are at a point where Clans need something esp in the heavy and assault classes. I know many experienced players on both sides who see the same thing. Just waiting for PGI to wake up to this and do something. Not sure when that will happen given all the IS fan boys (like NGNG) that are currently in their ear.

The only 'help' the Clans need is a tutorial on building effective mechs.

Good Clan pilots can already build good Clan mechs, that utilize their strengths, and take advantage of the IS weaknesses.

I find it difficult taking someone seriously who thinks that Clan ballistics aren't strong enough.

Or that a 365m range weapon should have the same damage over time profile as a lighter 600m weapon.

[nehebkau]

Khobai, on 01 May 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

its equally funny how IS like to ignore that their mechs have quirks that substantially increase both toughness as well as in most cases make their weapons equal or sometimes BETTER than their clan equivalents.

I agree the IS SSRM-2 needs a buff.

In the context of streaks thats the only balance change I believe is necessary.

Again "DERP IS QUIRKS" and ignores clan XL engines... goodness. IS Streaks DO NOT NEED A BUFF, clan streaks need a nerf to heat generation.

Stop asking for farking buffs -- TTK is already to damn low.

[FireDog]

Clans getting XLengins that last though a torso loss are a BIG difference.

[Khobai]

Quote

IS Streaks DO NOT NEED A BUFF, clan streaks need a nerf to heat generation.

nope they dont.

clan streaks arnt even that good of a weapon. theyre not even used competitively and rarely seen outside scouting mode. the last thing they need is a nerf.

There is simply no compelling evidence whatsoever that clan streaks need to be nerfed.

Quote

Clans getting XLengins that last though a torso loss are a BIG difference.

Clan mechs still have their torsos easily blown off though.

IS mechs have the option to use STD engines. Plus they arnt as likely to lose their torsos because of all the extra structure.

The advantage for IS mechs is frontloaded. The advantage for clan mechs is backloaded.

We could spend all day debating which is actually better. But unlike you I dont selectively choose to ignore the advantages of my faction. I acknowledge that both factions have advantages.

If you accept that CXL is roughly balanced against IS Structure quirks. And you accept that most clan weapons are again roughly balanced by IS weapon quirks (aside from streaks). Then you reach the conclusion that IS streaks need to be buffed. And thats the only real change we need.

Edited by Khobai, 01 May 2016 - 09:28 PM.

[Mystere]

Adamski, on 01 May 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

The only 'help' the Clans need is a tutorial on building effective mechs.

Good Clan pilots can already build good Clan mechs, that utilize their strengths, and take advantage of the IS weaknesses.

And yet, in the context of the new 4v4 game mode, it seems it's the IS that need to do so based on all the recent loud whining.

Sigh! This Clan vs. IS argument is never going to go out of style until all Clan Mechs and equipment are nothing more than reskinned versions of IS ones, differing only in shape, color, and sound effects. <smh>

Edited by Mystere, 01 May 2016 - 09:40 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Foxwalker, on 30 April 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

Right before the introduction of Clan SSRMs, Streak damage was 2.5 per missile. Of course if they left it that for Clan Streaks that would have been a disaster.

I had proposed that they just leave IS Streaks at 2.5, it would balance them some, but more importantly make them worth bringing. After the the nerf from 2.5 to 2, IS mechs that worked fairly well, like the Commando 2D, and others, stopped being effective. That .5 difference made them no longer viable.

I would say this is partially true... The biggest contributing factors were the introduction of extreme damage output via hardpoint inflation and weapon damage potentials that came with the Clan release that completely invalidated the previous methodologies in gameplay.

Builds like the Streak Commando, Streak Raven 3L and even the Jenner F were made obsolete because the pre-Clan style of gameplay had a much, much longer TTK that allowed those builds to be utilized to great extent. Now, there's so much damage flying around in such a short time period that those builds, and the weapons associated with them, dont have the longevity previously afforded them to be remotely viable.

The whole damage system needs to get toned down, the outputs reigned in and I fear the 'Power Draw' change may not be enough to accomplish it alone.

Do that, and the lower output weapons like IS Streaks, Machine Guns and Small Lasers might actually serve a purpose again.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 01 May 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

And yet, in the context of the new 4v4 game mode, it seems it's the IS that need to do so based on all the recent loud whining.

Sigh! This Clan vs. IS argument is never going to go out of style until all Clan Mechs and equipment are nothing more than reskinned versions of IS ones, differing only in shape, color, and sound effects. <smh>

Clans can be given the beat-down in Scouting, you just need superior coordination to do it. Vastly. Superior. We were doing split FW yesterday; 6-8 of us on Invasion, 4 on Scout. According to our scouts, they were basically rolling the enemy with four Oxides using divide-and-conquer tactics.

Also, only the short-sighted demand the equipment be the same with different skins. There are plenty of ways to keep same-size teams and give them different-behaving equipment without turning a standard MedLas in to a green cER MedLas.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 01 May 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

Clans can be given the beat-down in Scouting, you just need superior coordination to do it. Vastly. Superior. We were doing split FW yesterday; 6-8 of us on Invasion, 4 on Scout. According to our scouts, they were basically rolling the enemy with four Oxides using divide-and-conquer tactics.

But, people whine and cry on the forums and that is because it is much easier to do so than actually think and come up with a solution. And PGI seems weak-kneed enough that it succumbs to that same whining and crying. It's learned behavior by the player base.

It's some "thinking person's" shooter this game turned out to be.

Yeonne Greene, on 01 May 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

Also, only the short-sighted demand the equipment be the same with different skins. There are plenty of ways to keep same-size teams and give them different-behaving equipment without turning a standard MedLas in to a green cER MedLas.

There are also plenty of ways to achieve asymmetric Clans formation vs. IS formation battles. But, arguments against it always seem to be easily boiled down to "because eSports requires that everything has to be the same!".

Edited by Mystere, 02 May 2016 - 07:28 AM.

[nehebkau]

Khobai, on 01 May 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:

If you accept that CXL is roughly balanced against IS Structure quirks. And you accept that most clan weapons are again roughly balanced by IS weapon quirks (aside from streaks). Then you reach the conclusion that IS streaks need to be buffed. And thats the only real change we need.

Why buff IS streaks? Why not nerf clan streaks? I think we can all agree that lowering the time to kill would be better for the game over-all. Rather than say "BUFF THIS WEAPON!" we should be advising that similar, better weapons be nerfed down to the other weapon's level.

If you are constantly buffing crap, you are just going to end up with 1-shot COD game-play (and we are getting close to that now).